• Hi all. We have had reports of member's signatures being edited to include malicious content. You can rest assured this wasn't done by staff and we can find no indication that the forums themselves have been compromised.

    However, remember to keep your passwords secure. If you use similar logins on multiple sites, people and even bots may be able to access your account.

    We always recommend using unique passwords and enable two-factor authentication if possible. Make sure you are secure.
  • Be sure to join the discussion on our discord at: Discord.gg/serebii
  • If you're still waiting for the e-mail, be sure to check your junk/spam e-mail folders

How would Ash winning a league change the anime?

Epicocity

Well-Known Member
A bit of exaggeration on my part my bad, honestly, I would have been depressed if I was Ash lol

I was mostly really expecting self-reflection and or a sad face and then what Ash did after he lost at the league. A headshake or something
He did: he apologized to his friends for not living up to their expectations. That's about what I would have expected from him after everything.
 
He did: he apologized to his friends for not living up to their expectations. That's about what I would have expected from him after everything.

And that was a great scene.

But I won't lie and said if I wanted him to just think about his loss for a moment. Ash is always portrayed selfless and putting others ahead of himself, so its natural that he apologized to his friends, but maybe in the back of my mind, I wanted to also have his own time to think about the league.

Maybe, I'm just misremembering wrong. I forgot the scene where he apologized to his friends, so maybe he did do that.
 

Ash-Pikachu

Well-Known Member
I'm not asking for him to throw a tantrum. I definitely understand what you mean here on the AG arc

Frustration isn't really what I wanted again. I just wanted some more obvious sadness.

But would that have been a good alternative? The way he responded was reasonable and mature, given the context he was in. He exuded gratitude and appreciation for Greninja who was devastated by their loss and most importantly disappointing Ash and Ash then assured him that it was only because Alain was incredible and was nothing to be disappointed about. Would breaking down in tears or showing disdain really have been a good showing of character and maturity? He did that after losing to Wulfuric in which he was chastised by Serena and he had done so after losing to Paul at Lake Acuity in which Monferno felt the weight of defeat because of Ash's reaction towards defeat. Him showing good sportsmanship was the best thing he could've done for him and his pokemon.
 
But would that have been a good alternative? The way he responded was reasonable and mature, given the context he was in. He exuded gratitude and appreciation for Greninja who was devastated by their loss and most importantly disappointing Ash and Ash then assured him that it was only because Alain was incredible and was nothing to be disappointed about. Would breaking down in tears or showing disdain really have been a good showing of character and maturity? He did that after losing to Wulfuric in which he was chastised by Serena and he had done so after losing to Paul at Lake Acuity in which Monferno felt the weight of defeat because of Ash's reaction towards defeat. Him showing good sportsmanship was the best thing he could've done for him and his pokemon.

I've changed my mind about the tears part, and I never said anything about wanting him to show disdain.

Sportsmanship is fine and all, but is it wrong to wish Ash was a bit more expressive in this scene or maybe a bit after? He lost to a guy he's been wanting to beat at the stage he's always wanted to win at. Him showcasing a bit of sadness, but of course shaking it off, would have been something that IMO would have been realistic to see. Maybe I'm totally off base with this one.
 

Cat's Eye Draco

Well-Known Member
Sportsmanship is fine and all, but is it wrong to wish Ash was a bit more expressive in this scene or maybe a bit after? He lost to a guy he's been wanting to beat at the stage he's always wanted to win at. Him showcasing a bit of sadness, but of course shaking it off, would have been something that IMO would have been realistic to see. Maybe I'm totally off base with this one.

No, I think I get what you're saying. From the sound of it, you would have liked a scene where Ash was quietly/discreetly sad about losing for maybe a few seconds before taking a step back, acknowledging that they'd done their best, and being genuinely happy/content with that. Something like a small scene in a locker room or one of the corridors that lead to the stadium - after he's congratulated Alain, is out of sight of everyone, and the adrenaline of the match is starting to wear off - where maybe his pace slows a little, his expression becomes a bit wistful for a few seconds before Pikachu jumps up on his shoulder, they share a smile, and he walks on with a little more of a spring in his step, content that they gave it their best shot.

I can't say as I'd have found anything particularly progress-shattering about a scene like that. I mean, it'd be one thing if it opened the floodgates to another bought of depression and Ash had to learn his lesson all over again (that really would be progress-shattering), but just a brief, private moment of sadness following a high stakes competition that he rallies from almost immediately? I think that would've been pretty understandable.
 

Pokegirl Fan~

Liko>>>>>Ash
I've changed my mind about the tears part, and I never said anything about wanting him to show disdain.

Sportsmanship is fine and all, but is it wrong to wish Ash was a bit more expressive in this scene or maybe a bit after? He lost to a guy he's been wanting to beat at the stage he's always wanted to win at. Him showcasing a bit of sadness, but of course shaking it off, would have been something that IMO would have been realistic to see. Maybe I'm totally off base with this one.
I think I wanted the same reaction as well tbh.
 

LilligantLewis

Bonnie stan
No, I think I get what you're saying. From the sound of it, you would have liked a scene where Ash was quietly/discreetly sad about losing for maybe a few seconds before taking a step back, acknowledging that they'd done their best, and being genuinely happy/content with that. Something like a small scene in a locker room or one of the corridors that lead to the stadium - after he's congratulated Alain, is out of sight of everyone, and the adrenaline of the match is starting to wear off - where maybe his pace slows a little, his expression becomes a bit wistful for a few seconds before Pikachu jumps up on his shoulder, they share a smile, and he walks on with a little more of a spring in his step, content that they gave it their best shot.

I can't say as I'd have found anything particularly progress-shattering about a scene like that. I mean, it'd be one thing if it opened the floodgates to another bought of depression and Ash had to learn his lesson all over again (that really would be progress-shattering), but just a brief, private moment of sadness following a high stakes competition that he rallies from almost immediately? I think that would've been pretty understandable.

Yeah, this is probably exactly what I wanted. Not earth-shattering by any means IMO
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
There are some things we learn to handle better, but they will still hurt no matter how often we go through them. SM Ash has actually shown this decently on several occasions, he got humiliated by Nanu, he took it like a champ but was still blatantly crushed, he had to release Poipole, was understanding, but again, visibly heartbroken, even in the new opening titles we see him seemingly still mourning that but putting on a brave face for his friends. These are trials he has gone through before in the past, but the loss isn't downplayed because of that.

The premise of Ash being clearly saddened he lost but taking it like a good sport is quite reasonable and in character in that regard.

I actually think Ash has more depth being a bit wistful about his losing streak in the league anyway, like he's almost meta aware he's stuck in a limbo in that regard.
 

LilligantLewis

Bonnie stan
I actually think Ash has more depth being a bit wistful about his losing streak in the league anyway, like he's almost meta aware he's stuck in a limbo in that regard.

Well he was very aware in the final episode of BW. this did not carry over to XY.
 

Leonhart

Imagineer
Twilight-Kun said:
Seeing the Champion League and Elite Four members would be nice, especially the Unova Elite Four, most of whom didn't seem to exist during BW

The Isshu region's Four Heavenly Kings were definitely snubbed, and I wish we had seen them make cameos by showing Virgil challenging them after he won the Isshu League.
 

ShadowForce720

Well-Known Member
It'd achieve his goal of becoming greatest Pokemon master. Which will probably cause anime to end, lol.

What? No, it wouldn't what are you talking about, it's been implied and stated that wining the league is just a stepping stone to being a pokemon master. If Ash won the league he wouldn't be a pokemon master yet, sure he maybe closer to the goal but he wouldn't have achieved it yet, especially when there is the champion league he can do, and take on the E4 and Champion, heck he wouldn't even be champion of the region just by winning the regional league let alone become a pokemon master. Sure we don't know what pokemon master is but it makes no sense for it to be just winning a regional league, because otherwise you would the E4 and the champion of the region would be called pokemon masters, and yet never referred to as pokemon masters implying that there is a actual difference between being a champion and being a master.
 

Zhydra

Master of Chaos!
What? No, it wouldn't what are you talking about, it's been implied and stated that wining the league is just a stepping stone to being a pokemon master. If Ash won the league he wouldn't be a pokemon master yet, sure he maybe closer to the goal but he wouldn't have achieved it yet, especially when there is the champion league he can do, and take on the E4 and Champion, heck he wouldn't even be champion of the region just by winning the regional league let alone become a pokemon master. Sure we don't know what pokemon master is but it makes no sense for it to be just winning a regional league, because otherwise you would the E4 and the champion of the region would be called pokemon masters, and yet never referred to as pokemon masters implying that there is a actual difference between being a champion and being a master.

Ash winning a league does not equal that pokemon master thing. If it did, the series would have ended at the Orange League... where he did win that.
 

ShadowForce720

Well-Known Member
Ash winning a league does not equal that pokemon master thing. If it did, the series would have ended at the Orange League... where he did win that.

yeah I know, just to be clear you do realize that I was saying pretty much that Ash winning a league wouldn't make him a pokemon master.
 

Satomine Night

The Power of Z!
Sportsmanship is fine and all, but is it wrong to wish Ash was a bit more expressive in this scene or maybe a bit after? He lost to a guy he's been wanting to beat at the stage he's always wanted to win at. Him showcasing a bit of sadness, but of course shaking it off, would have been something that IMO would have been realistic to see. Maybe I'm totally off base with this one.
I totally agree with you. While Ash had come to realize that power and winning aren't everything, at the same time, winning a League has always been one of his goals, and for once, he came very close to achieving that goal. I'm fine with his being a good sport about it—apologizing to his friends and Pokémon, congratulating Alain on his win—and not moping about it afterward, because that shows his maturity.

However, the fact that he didn't show even a hint of disappointment at having one of his goals snatched right out from under his nose was incredibly out of character for him, IMHO, and also unrealistic. It didn't have to be much—just a second or two of gritted teeth, or a clenched fist, or a disappointed head shake would have sufficed. Instead, he showed no signs of disappointment. Greninja looked sorrier than Ash did, and that frog was not exactly the most expressive creature on the planet (primarily because of its design, which doesn't lend itself very well to a lot of expressions).
 

Shadao

Aim to be a Pokémon Master
Satoshi wants victory... or going down in a blaze of glory. That is simple. Ash doesn't want to face an easy trainer to win the League. He wants their best. He wants the ultimate opponent to earn that League championship.

Ash being disappoint could lead to false readings or foreshadowing given what Ash will later find out about Alain's connections to Team Flare. If I had to guess as to why Ash is such a good sport in the Kalos League, it's because they don't want to indicate that Ash is secretly jealous of Alain or is going to use the discovery of Alain's Team Flare connection as a means to disqualify Alain from the championship.

In fact, part of Alain's surprise with Ash is how he easily he got over his losses and just wants another battle with Alain in the future, possibly in another League and with a new team. Keep in mind, Alain's mentality prior to the Team Flare climax was to get stronger and never lose. Defeat was not an option. So for Alain to see Ash shrug off the defeat (as well as the fact that it was kinda Alain's fault that Ash was captured, tortured and nearly turned into a slave for Lysandre), it made him realize he could not defeat Ash. Maybe have victories over him, but Ash still keeps on going like Rocky Balboa.

After Ash defeated Sawyer, the Kalos League becomes a character study of Alain with Ash as the foil (and in my opinion, his better). This is why Ash doesn't get as much as focus in regards to his response to losing the Kalos League. It's from Alain's perspective. A perspective that is a running theme of XY: How do people perceive Ash Ketchum as?

And more importantly, after you win the League, now what?

What do you do when you after you win the League? And what does it mean to actually win the League after all that hype? It's the elephant in the room question. I wouldn't be surprised if the reason they made Alain the victor is because Alain offers better insights to this whole hype League victory than Ash could. Because we know what Ash would do after winning the Kalos League: Go to the next region and become a master there. He simply will not retire anytime soon.

Maybe that's why Alola League is so low key. Perhaps they realized that hyping these massive Leagues (which are used to justify Gym Battles) has made the events more important than they really are. And maybe, to prove their point of how silly it is to focus on the League, they'll make Ash Ketchum the champion victor.
 

Zhydra

Master of Chaos!
And more importantly, after you win the League, now what?

What do you do when you after you win the League? And what does it mean to actually win the League after all that hype? It's the elephant in the room question. I wouldn't be surprised if the reason they made Alain the victor is because Alain offers better insights to this whole hype League victory than Ash could. Because we know what Ash would do after winning the Kalos League: Go to the next region and become a master there. He simply will not retire anytime soon.

Maybe that's why Alola League is so low key. Perhaps they realized that hyping these massive Leagues (which are used to justify Gym Battles) has made the events more important than they really are. And maybe, to prove their point of how silly it is to focus on the League, they'll make Ash Ketchum the champion victor.

Better we don't have much hope in Ash winning a league from the start than having false hope with him winning and getting let down.

Maybe that will make that surprise should Ash actually win the Alola League. (I'm not counting on it.) Stand out as a meaningful victory much like the Orange League or Battle Frontier.

Kind of like what happened in the Gen 7 games where YOU the player become the regions champ that others challenge for the sake of that title, maybe something might happen to Ash's victory to make it short lived. (Where he loses the title a few episodes later.)

This will either be like all the other reasons where he loses. (I'm fine with it.) Or could build up to something genius... time will tell.
 

Spider-Phoenix

#ChespinGang
I love it when XY&Z fans and SM fans can agree.

There's still hope for the world!

Maybe that's why Alola League is so low key. Perhaps they realized that hyping these massive Leagues (which are used to justify Gym Battles) has made the events more important than they really are. And maybe, to prove their point of how silly it is to focus on the League, they'll make Ash Ketchum the champion victor.

I think you are being a bit too optimist here. I think it feels that way because the direction just doesn't care for it the same way they don't care much about battles, Grand trials and the Ultra Beast/Necrozma climatic arcs lol
 
Top