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I’m just not so sure about how I feel about the OS anymore

Discussion in 'Pokémon Animé Discussion' started by srebak, Dec 30, 2018.

  1. srebak

    srebak Beginning Trainer

    Please respond to this—

    I’ll be blunt and just come right to the point; I can not honestly say just how I view the Original series of Pokémon anymore. I mean I still like it and as a would-be author I have had some interesting ideas about what could have been done during it. However, I will not lie, I am starting to see just why some fans few the following sagas as better and that kind of bothers me to be perfectly honest

    For one thing I like Misty and have long since joined the ranks of those who believe that she and Ash would make a good couple. But, after watching Ash’s exploits with May, Dawn and Serena, I cannot help but still believe that Misty could have been nicer to him, the original series gave misty way too many opportunities to cut Ash down and insult him and I don’t really believe that he deserved it. I had originally thought that Iris’ treatment of Ash was far too needlessly condescending and somewhat hypocritical as well, and that Misty wasn’t that bad, but now I am unfortunately starting to see the resemblance between the two and Iris’s character was not one that I was growing fond of, I kept wishing for someone or something to take her down a peg, she deserved it.

    Anyways, back to the topic at hand; when I think about how admirable Ash is the Advanced, DP and XYZ sagas, I try to tell myself that he was more or less like that in the Johto saga as well, but his behavior in the first season still manages to come back to haunt me. He was insulted and accused of handling Pokémon badly and irresponsibly and that just felt like people were just being needlessly condescending towards him. Also, when I compare it to how well he’s handled Sceptile, Infernape, Krookadile, Greninja and Noivern, I just can’t help but feel bothered by the problems that Ash has had in terms of his Charizard, especially since I still can’t for the life of me understand why it started to disobey him in the first place; I mean isn’t this the same kid who protected him from the rain while keeping his tail flame lit, who always cheered him on and treated him like a real friend no matter what? So, what exactly happened in the short amount of time that it evolved that caused it to think that Ash was not worth listening to, especially when it only evolved under Ash’s care anyways?
    DuquÊ?, Redstar45 and LilligantLewis like this.
  2. mehmeh1

    mehmeh1 Neutral force of Meh

    evolving can change the personality of a pokemon, and ash was a rookie back then, so it made sense how irresponsible he was
  3. srebak

    srebak Beginning Trainer

    See right there? I think that saying that Ash was stupid, irresponsible or didn’t have a clue about what he was doing is a bit too harsh, at least in regards to the original series as a whole
  4. ash&charizardfan

    ash&charizardfan Humanity's greatest soldier

    Kanto ash could be termed as stupid and clueless, you are only going to get flak if you dont know basic stuffs like electric type being weak to ground type, and there are many cases where he tried to show off the achievements he didn't do, he did have a big head in kanto but he did started to improve post kanto in OI and johto.
  5. DatsRight

    DatsRight Well-Known Member

    I guess it's the fact Ash got shot down for making rookie mistakes when he was....you know, a rookie. The term 'you could catch more flies with honey than vinegar' comes into play, especially since Ash himself is usually a far more patient and empathetic mentor to later companions than Misty or almost any other Kanto civilian ever was.

    I think this was really a leftover from Shudo's original plans, where the Pokemon universe was meant to be more a crapsack deconstruction of the games' world, where the Pokemon trainer occupation was a pipe dream loads of people wasted their lives on and became deadbeats. Thus it made sense for nearly everyone in Kanto to have a really ruthless and over defensive streak about their accomplishments. Also note in the original concepts a child of 10 was treated as a official adult, gym leaders were fired if they lost too many times to trainers, and Prof Oak was kind of a pragmatic jerk who sent many trainers into the dangerous wilderness without a care to further his research. Under this logic no wonder everyone in Kanto ended up frustrated, bitter and self righteous. Of course this wasn't presented in the show itself, so everyone just kinda looks like a jerk for no reason but standard pomposity.

    I think Misty and Team Rocket were semblances of the original plans placed into the final project. Misty was treated like the misfit of her more successful sisters (in early plans she was meant to be a frustrated incompetent) so vented out her inferiority complex onto Ash, the one person she knew that she could feel smart against, while Team Rocket were characters who had failed to work out in the legal world due to how ruthless it was and so became criminals (a contrast to later series where they usually have far more success whenever they try a legit business).

    This likely makes sense to why Johto kinda fell into a slump, not just because the show lasted longer than Shudo planned, but because his original plans had gotten kinda dumbed down, so the writers likely felt it better to tone down the cynical format since without that substance it was ending up a bit mean spirited, but unfortunately they didn't have a whole lot else to replace it with.
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2018
    Kutie Pie likes this.
  6. AznKei

    AznKei Rabi-Ribi's Cocoa is cute! ^_^

    For some reason, it reminded me the idea behind Pokemon Go. They let players go around parts of their cities they haven't gone before. And you know some cities had sketchy neighboorhoods with lots of crimes, or places you really should not go around like military bases, or memorial sites.

    As for the topic, Ash was surely a jerk back in OS. But then again, he was starting his journey for the 1st time, so I was more forgiving about him being a noob. Unlike the recent series, where seeing him a jerk is really odd, after many regions of experiences.
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2018
    Kutie Pie and LilligantLewis like this.
  7. Well, most of them are better lol, what's wrong with changing your mind

    I don't think those are similar cases at all. Misty's insults towards Ash were a lot more justified than Iris' were because Ash treated Misty the same way she treated him. It was more like two kids roasting each other randomly while Iris's interactions with Ash came across more as one sided condescension
    Because he was...? And he was rude to other people as well, most of the times Ash took flak from people it was just him getting what he dished out. I don't see the problem here.

    ash was a better trainer when he raised those other pokemon so obviously he would have less problems with those than with charizard
  8. DatsRight

    DatsRight Well-Known Member

    I dunno while Ash could be an arrogant jerk in the OS, I remember several times people were gratuitously curt to him just for being a little cocksure or being naive to a mistake you'd expect rookies to make.

    I mean Misty for example initially antagonised Ash because he ruined her bike, completely apathetic to the fact Pikachu would have DIED if he hadn't sacrificed it. Despite clearly hating his guts (or maybe not but having the 'Helga Pataki approach' to it) she continued stalking him throughout his early points, nitpicking every move he made, insulting his Pokemon and making them cry, and physically abusing him for not instantly knowing type matchups. I think after a while Ash would have had to have been bitter and rude back as a defence mechanism. The first time he insulted Misty back was pretty cathartic, but then he didn't really stop because he was so wound up. And in fairness, neither did Misty.

    Again this seemed to be a leftover of the earlier more cynical story plans where everyone was embittered by the ruthless manner of the trainer occupation, so pretty much "Well no one was sympathetic and easy going to ME, so I sure as hell won't be such to YOU!" Everyone becoming bitter over defensive bullies to the next generation and turning THEM into bitter over defensive bullies. Which is kinda sadly how a lot of real life employment works. Venting out their frustrations on the new people so they end up the same.
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2018
  9. Shadao

    Shadao Champion GETTO DA ZE!

    Much of it has to do with Takeshi Shudō’s original intent and the evolving narrative of the Pokémon franchise. Simply put, the main ideas of Shūdo were not compatible with GameFreak’s idea of a utopian Pokémon world. Add a forever character like Ash and Pikachu, and something had to change for the show to keep up with the times.
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2019
    Redstar45 and Spider-Phoenix like this.
  10. Ignition

    Ignition Incineroar wins yet again (proud of my son)

    I tend to try and find a “niche” each series provides: OS’s is humor. I don’t mind that it’s successors are better in character and plot development because OS wasn’t meant to be taken as seriously. It’s still a flaw but I let it past.
    PorcelainVulpix likes this.
  11. Kintaro

    Kintaro Banned

    Kanto was basically a comedy/adventure series, the writers didn't care about battles back then hence why Ash doesn't win half the Gyms fairly, etc. Orange Islands was somewhat similar but with a bit more focus on goals.

    Johto is where the writers realized the anime had to be spread out over 3 years, but of course they did a poor job at first since they had nothing but filler to fill Johto's time with since Misty didn't have a real goal and Ash didn't evolve his pokemon and Gary barely showed up. Hence why the anime was revamped when AG started and the writers started putting more focus on the lead female with May and the Contests and the show went on from there.
    Redstar45 and LilligantLewis like this.
  12. PineapplePizza

    PineapplePizza Well-Known Member

    This is why the original series is the best series imo. There's a cynical ugliness beneath the saccharine exterior. Brock is from a broken home, Misty has a huge inferiority complex from being the youngest and least "sensational" of her sisters, Ash lacks the competence to match his hubris and its implied his father isn't around for the same reason Brock's father left. The gym leaders have their own issues and aren't just nice friendly trainers set up to test your skill. Team Rocket has some of the most interesting back stories. James became a criminal to escape the confines of obscene wealth, Jessie became a criminal to escape poverty. Meowth became a criminal because society rejected him. The Kanto saga is the only series that I feel is actually better than the games it came from.

    Later series just feel like toy commercials.
    laiken, Xuxuba, Genaller and 2 others like this.
  13. PorcelainVulpix

    PorcelainVulpix justice for johto

    snarky ash >>>>> bland ash.

    Honestly OS is a favorite for people who enjoy the humor and watch for entertainment instead of seeing Ash excel as a trainer. I love how entertaining and goofy OS is and I love all the personalities. For people like me, OS is one of the most enjoyable sagas plus its extremely rewatchable (Kanto.) I have a harder time rewatching other sagas because it can start to feel like a task. And also, another user already pointed it out but Ash roasted Misty just as much as she roasted him. Most of Ash’s funniest lines are actually roasts towards Misty.
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2019
  14. zdbz_sn

    zdbz_sn Well-Known Member

    There's nothing wrong with changing your mind, though I disagree with nearly every point you raised.

    The OS's humor was broad, trading heavily on slapstick and the clash of personalities; I'm only prepared to take its harsher aspects so seriously. As others have said, Ash gave as good as he got, and Misty's temper began to cool even before Togepi was introduced; by the end of the Indigo League, she and Ash argue much less, and she's supportive of him in the league, in the Orange Islands, and through Johto. (I've also never seen a primary source for the idea that she was originally meant to be a "frustrated incompetent.")

    Ash was rather dumb starting out, but there's a (more or less) consistent development of his character from the OS all the way through DP; again, the development began as early as the Indigo League itself. Ash being the protagonist, and the proxy for the game character, you can see that he's often written as unaware of things that a general audience wouldn't know either, the better to open doors for exposition. Does it always make sense for such a Pokemon-happy kid not to know these things? No. Is it always artfully handled, these moments of exposition? No. But again, I'm only going to treat those so seriously when I can recognize a boring but standard writing convention at work.

    Charizard was an adaptation of the idea that a Pokemon over a certain level won't always obey a trainer in the games if they don't have enough badges. IMO, the way it was written - that, having evolved, Charizard needed a sign of worthiness from Ash in a more broad and personal sense than just an arbitrary number of badges - made much more sense than sticking to a game mechanic.

    The real problem with the OS is the desert of filler in the middle of Johto; head writer getting ill before leaving, the G/S ball arc getting cut, and general confusion as to the future of the series left it a mess. But I wouldn't say that takes away from the rewatch value of the Indigo and Orange Leagues.
    PorcelainVulpix likes this.
  15. PineapplePizza

    PineapplePizza Well-Known Member

    Which always seemed weird to me because I'm pretty sure that mechanic only applies to traded Pokemon. (Does Charmander choosing to leave Damian for Ash count it a a traded Pokemon?) I always liked the fan theory that Charmeleon lost respect for Ash when Ash's first command to it was to throw a fight to weak Paras.

    I know officially the Johto portion is considered part of the original series but that alway seemed weird to me since we've pretty much had one gen=one anime series since then.
    Genaller and PorcelainVulpix like this.
  16. blizzardblaze

    blizzardblaze Comp. Battler Who loves The Anime

    it never made sense to me as well why charmeleon lost respect for ash even though he SAVED it from near certain death in the rain and was willing enough to endure punishment from nearby pokemon who were trying to attack it. then, when he evolves, he for some ungodly reason is very disrespectful upon evolution because it dramatically changed his personality(for whatever reason) right after he happily takes down the exeggutors...
  17. DatsRight

    DatsRight Well-Known Member

    They really chose the wrong Pokemon to use the arc on. I mean Bulbasaur was at least a cynic towards Ash in earlier episodes, so it would make sense that sort of distrust would be exacerbated with an evolution.

    Plus Charizard wasn't just aloof, he was STUPIDLY defiant. He'd fall asleep or turn away just to spite Ash when they were in a freaking volcano about to erupt, or when Pikachu was being carted away by Team Rocket and Ash was literally begging him to show some compassion and save his team mate. At the end of the day, the character's meant to have an attitude problem, but you're meant to want him to get better in the end, but early Charizard pretty much had 'uncaring dumbass' as his only characteristic.

    I feel like that was something they didn't really get the translation kinks fixed for yet, compared to most later disobedient Pokemon who at least have some sort of limit to where their stubborn streak ends and common sense kicks in.
  18. Kintaro

    Kintaro Banned

    Yeah, back then the writers just didn't consider it a new series and the episode number continued after Orange Islands into it. Same reason Ash/Misty/Brock didn't get new clothes, etc.

    But yeah Johto is very different from Kanto or Orange Islands. And when people think of the nostalgia OS they think of Ash with Bulbasaur/Squirtle/Charizard, not his Johto team of Bayleef/Cyndaquil/Totodile/Noctowl...his Johto pokemon are virtually never remembered in the same manner as Ash's Kanto pokemon are when people think of the nostalgic OS.
    PorcelainVulpix likes this.
  19. I think OS can compare to SM. I dont know which one is the goofiest.
  20. Genaller

    Genaller May 16th 2016 - October 12th 2019

    That theory honestly seems like the best explanation. Through his time with Damian Charmandar was conditioned to believe that loosing (in specific getting KOed) = being a weakling which resulted in him getting left for dead. Eventhough Charmandar rejected Damian for Ash, all of that conditioning won’t just magically go away. This mindset was only magnified by Charmander’s evolution giving him a greater sense of pride in his strength, so when the first command Charmeleon hears from Ash is to loose to this random seemingly worthless Paras, a slippery slope forms in his mind that Ash wants him to end up in the poor helpless state he was in as a Charmandar once again. This is because Charmeleon associated loosing with being weak and associates being weak with ending up abandoned in that pitiful predicament. This essentially made Charmeleon go “I’m done giving a f*** about Ash anymore”. It probably wasn’t rational on his part since Ash had already showed more than enough compassion to justify that he’d never treat him like Damian did though given how trumatic the experience must have been for Charmandar back then, it's understandable as to why he made such a paranoid association.

    Not everyone does this, but I usually tend to think of Kanto/OI and Johto as separate entities where for the former the climax would be Ash vs Drake (the first fully shown full battle in the series) resulting in Ash’s first major win with the epilogue being the return to Pallet and subsequent battle with Gary illustrating to Ash that he still has a long way to go before catching up to his childhood rival.
    Ash-Pikachu likes this.

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