I’m just not so sure about how I feel about the OS anymore

[ash&charizardfan]

Yeah, back then the writers just didn't consider it a new series and the episode number continued after Orange Islands into it. Same reason Ash/Misty/Brock didn't get new clothes, etc.

But yeah Johto is very different from Kanto or Orange Islands. And when people think of the nostalgia OS they think of Ash with Bulbasaur/Squirtle/Charizard, not his Johto team of Bayleef/Cyndaquil/Totodile/Noctowl...his Johto pokemon are virtually never remembered in the same manner as Ash's Kanto pokemon are when people think of the nostalgic OS.

Whole kanto, OI and johto are considerd part of one series, i think kanto was part of anime showing what pokemon world is, they didn't planned it for a long series i think anime series was planned for 82 episodes, whereas OI was a short stopgap until johto series started (probably that's why ash was given a win) while johto was the start of the regional formula which is going on still now which basically focussed on ash challenging the gyms trying getting to the league.

Johto is considered the part of OS, its different only because thise region started having main focus on battling aspects rather than humour and fun. Ash's bayleef is still remembered by many people its just his johto pokemon were less iconic than his kanto trio, also johto is less memorable than kanto mainly because it was boring for the most parts ash's team was underdeveloped, gary despite being main rival only appearing once or twice and his companions misty/brock becoming bland and regressing to background characters.

 

[Prof. SALTY]

Ash literally spent 0 time training for the league and it came back to bite him in the ass. I don't think he was treated unfairly at all because he was arrogant and way too cocky for his level of skill.

 

[Kintaro]

Yeah even when the OS was airing for the first time when we were kids/teens, people viewed Johto as an entirely separate entity than Kanto/Orange Islands. Besides being a new gen, it had the "whole new world" theme and Brock was back over Tracey, everyone saw it as a separate thing even if it's part of the same series. And besides that the writing style was completely different, all of Kanto's darkness, slapstick humor and weird/funny filler plots were gone in Johto.

Honestly if Johto was written the same way as Kanto was but with better battles most people probably would have loved it. There are some funny Johto eps like all those Team Rocket and Wobbufett fillers and a lot of the Brock eps, but also way too many repetitive "help the filler character of the day with their pokemon" eps too. Granted every saga has eps like these, but the sheer mass of them in Johto was ridiculous.

 

[DatsRight]

Ash literally spent 0 time training for the league and it came back to bite him in the ass. I don't think he was treated unfairly at all because he was arrogant and way too cocky for his level of skill.

I think the issue was that while Ash was arrogant, most of the other characters were equally smarmy and ready to pounce on him even if he didn't have a bad attitude about it. Their own approaches also tended to run on bad logic at times as well so they were hardly the people to talk (eg. Misty constantly sniping Ash for not training his Pokemon despite half her team being incompetent and her quickly giving up trying to work out the kinks in them, the first time Ash pointed out the hypocrisy in this, Misty's counter argument was to physically threaten him to shut up).

Basically no one really looked sympathetic out of the dynamic. This is the downside of a more cynical format, as quickly it can nose dive into near mean spirited if the premise for everyone being bitter isn't developed well enough.

 

[Prof. SALTY]

I think the issue was that while Ash was arrogant, most of the other characters were equally smarmy and ready to pounce on him even if he didn't have a bad attitude about it. Their own approaches also tended to run on bad logic at times as well so they were hardly the people to talk (eg. Misty constantly sniping Ash for not training his Pokemon despite half her team being incompetent and her quickly giving up trying to work out the kinks in them, the first time Ash pointed out the hypocrisy in this, Misty's counter argument was to physically threaten him to shut up).

Basically no one really looked sympathetic out of the dynamic. This is the downside of a more cynical format, as quickly it can nose dive into near mean spirited if the premise for everyone being bitter isn't developed well enough.

The difference is Misty isn't taking part in a league and wasn't a gym leader at the time. She had no reason to be training

 

[DatsRight]

The difference is Misty isn't taking part in a league and wasn't a gym leader at the time. She had no reason to be training

She still had a goal however (one that wasn't nearly as focused but still existed) and she still saw herself as the more experienced trainer.

And again even when Ash wasn't being outright arrogant or rude about it, Misty had a very curt way of cutting him down to size, not realising that structuring all her advise in the form of passive aggressive insults might just make him more headstrong.

 

[Prof. SALTY]

She still had a goal however (one that wasn't nearly as focused but still existed) and she still saw herself as the more experienced trainer.

She does own several other pokemon at the gym and was a gym leader for a time. Her skill level WAS higher than Ash's.

 

[DatsRight]

She does own several other pokemon at the gym and was a gym leader for a time. Her skill level WAS higher than Ash's.

She only got as far as a stalemate with Ash however (though TR butted in....again), I remember the episode pointing out she likely would have lost if Pikachu had been willing to fight.

 

[Prof. SALTY]

She only got as far as a stalemate with Ash however (though TR butted in....again), I remember the episode pointing out she likely would have lost if Pikachu had been willing to fight.

Its implied that it's just because of the type advantage though.

 

[PorcelainVulpix]

Yeah even when the OS was airing for the first time when we were kids/teens, people viewed Johto as an entirely separate entity than Kanto/Orange Islands. Besides being a new gen, it had the "whole new world" theme and Brock was back over Tracey, everyone saw it as a separate thing even if it's part of the same series. And besides that the writing style was completely different, all of Kanto's darkness, slapstick humor and weird/funny filler plots were gone in Johto.

Honestly if Johto was written the same way as Kanto was but with better battles most people probably would have loved it. There are some funny Johto eps like all those Team Rocket and Wobbufett fillers and a lot of the Brock eps, but also way too many repetitive "help the filler character of the day with their pokemon" eps too. Granted every saga has eps like these, but the sheer mass of them in Johto was ridiculous.

I agree. Johto actually does have some great episodes but you have to dig or suffer through the fillers.

 

[DatsRight]

Generally the one thing that was still in-tact through Johto was Team Rocket, who had loads of good villain protagonist episodes and still had their tragic backgrounds looked upon in many stories. Even they waxed and waned however.

 

[Kintaro]

You could arguably say TR were at their funniest in Johto after the Kanto arc. They still had their moments in later seasons, but Johto felt like the last hurrah for Team Rocket as truly comedic characters.

 

[DatsRight]

You could arguably say TR were at their funniest in Johto after the Kanto arc. They still had their moments in later seasons, but Johto felt like the last hurrah for Team Rocket as truly comedic characters.

I think it's that TR didn't feel nearly as much like an unwanted third wheel in Johto as they did in later seasons, or at least no more so than the twerps were. They still had their backgrounds and motivations come up time and time and the rest of the cast still had a funny chemistry with them, making them more than just irrelevant nuisances who were butting into matters far more important than themselves.

BW was the nearest to bringing this back, though their backstories remained a thing of the past.

 

[Pokegirl Fan~]

You could arguably say TR were at their funniest in Johto after the Kanto arc. They still had their moments in later seasons, but Johto felt like the last hurrah for Team Rocket as truly comedic characters.

Johto should have been their last series; I don't really see the need for them to be a part of the series anymore.

 

[DatsRight]

Johto should have been their last series; I don't really see the need for them to be a part of the series anymore.

Because until SM, they still needed padding villains for nearly every story. They probably also respected Shudo's claims that no TR meant no show.

 

[Kintaro]

Johto should have been their last series; I don't really see the need for them to be a part of the series anymore.

Either that or by the end of DP when Brock left, IMO.

 

[AznKei]

Johto should have been their last series; I don't really see the need for them to be a part of the series anymore.

I would include Ash as well. Sure he gradually progresses in AG & DP, but we wouldn't suffer the "He's stale, but he's too important for the show" excuse if it was done after Johto imo.

 

[Jeal]

Honestly if Johto was written the same way as Kanto was but with better battles most people probably would have loved it. There are some funny Johto eps like all those Team Rocket and Wobbufett fillers and a lot of the Brock eps, but also way too many repetitive "help the filler character of the day with their pokemon" eps too. Granted every saga has eps like these, but the sheer mass of them in Johto was ridiculous.

It's because Misty and Brock were treated just like supporting characters, Gary wasn't a recurring rival like Paul, the Johto team was underveloped, and Team Rocket wasn' treated like organization.

She does own several other pokemon at the gym and was a gym leader for a time. Her skill level WAS higher than Ash's.

No way, Ash was pounding her. Ash always was superior to her. For a rookie with no training to go toe to toe with her, she was very incompetent.

 

[PineapplePizza]

Johto should have been their last series; I don't really see the need for them to be a part of the series anymore.

It would make sense too since Gold/Silver/Crystal was the last gen to use them.

I would include Ash as well. Sure he gradually progresses in AG & DP, but we wouldn't suffer the "He's stale, but he's too important for the show" excuse if it was done after Johto imo.

This. They should have dumped Ash and Pikachu and gone full reboot with each series from then on. Make Brendan, Max, and May the trio for Advance Battles. Lucas, Dawn, and Barry the trio for Diamond&Pearl and Hilbert, Cheren, and Bianca the trio for Best Wishes etc etc

No way, Ash was pounding her.

Poke Shippers sure wish anyways.

Ash always was superior to her. For a rookie with no training to go toe to toe with her, she was very incompetent.

Her Staryu beat his Butterfree. They were pretty much tied.

 

[Jeal]

Her Staryu beat his Butterfree. They were pretty much tied.

No, Butterfree could still battle. Even if it had been defeated, my point stands. A rookie with no training was going toe to toe with her. They battled other times too, and Ash always was better.