I’m just not so sure about how I feel about the OS anymore

[DatsRight]

Gladion I consider the defrosting rival, since he's mostly friendly but still a bit aloof and willing to call Ash out when he thinks he's full of crap.

 

[Twilight-Kun]

Translation: They think kids today are weaklings who can't stand a videogame character critizing them.

That's why WE'RE the jerk rival who constantly puts down and crushes other people on their pokemon journey

 

[PineapplePizza]

Ash has had friendly rivals every saga after the OS:

AG if you count Morrisson/Tyson
DP he had Barry and if you count Nando (?)
BW he had Stephen and I guess Bianca
XY he had Tierno, Shota, and Alan
SM he has Hau, I dunno if Gladion counts

Although the friendly rivals in the anime tend to be the most forgettable, but oh well.

Friendly rivals existing isn’t the problem.

The problem is the games have basically refused to have your rival actually antagonize you the way Blue and Silver did back in the first two gens.

The video Jeal posted is pretty accurate. They just exist to heal your team, have a friendly fight and gush over how amazing you are and ask if you prefer tongue or no tongue.

There’s room for characters like Barry, Bianca, and Shauna to exist (all of whom I really like...in the games at least) and there’s room for more antagonistic rivals like Blue Oak and Silver who aren’t here to stroke your ego and tell you that you are the holy light that shines on their lives.

Hell, Paul seems to exist partially because the anime regret never putting Silver in the main anime series and partially because the anime knew Ash needed a rival who would actually challenge him and not stroke his Aipom.

 

[Kintaro]

Well after 7 generations they also pretty much ran out of rival archtypes to use without going with blatant villains/criminals as a rival. I mean Paul is as far as you could go with that and he technically never did anything against the law. Gary was the original jerk rival, Paul was the no-nonsense rival, and all the others range from friendly rivals to more quiet/standalone rivals.

Also the female character rivals help us see characters that wouldn't work with Ash, like Drew/Harley, Zoey/Ursula, Millefeui in particular. In fact nearly all the female character rivals for May/Dawn/Serena especially feel like they could come out of girl oriented anime/manga or romance rival tropes. Which I guess is the point as the Contest arcs were aimed at girls.

 

[DatsRight]

When looking at the original more cynical plans for Kanto, it gives an amusing psychological twist into how the original cast developed as they left their hard-ass hometown. Ash has almost become an escapist, travelling any region at every opportunity, the result of being in several far more laid back places has mellowed him out gradually to the point of almost making him hedonistic. Brock has similarly diverted away from Kanto for the large part, becoming far less stoic and strict, but also having far less control over his impulses like his lustfulness. Misty left for a while but went back to Kanto and stayed, and while she is much more easy going and jovial from her travels, she probably retains her cynical side more than either of them.

Team Rocket are the nearest to remaining the same, though even then latch onto their past a lot less now, and have managed a few accomplishments such as having competent legitimate occupations and a relatively better relationship with their boss.

 

[Kintaro]

I really wish they didn't drop the ball in Johto with Ash's team and the handling of Misty and Gary. Brock was more or less still fine (even if he did the same thing), but Gary disappears for almost the entire span of Johto and that was the last saga he was the main rival for. Why barely have Gary show up? Most of the time in Johto it felt like Ash had no rival. And as for Misty in Johto we've gone over it many times, although I like how her AG and SM cameos gave some new life to her.

 

[Jeal]

I really wish they didn't drop the ball in Johto with Ash's team and the handling of Misty and Gary. Brock was more or less still fine (even if he did the same thing), but Gary disappears for almost the entire span of Johto and that was the last saga he was the main rival for. Why barely have Gary show up? Most of the time in Johto it felt like Ash had no rival. And as for Misty in Johto we've gone over it many times, although I like how her AG and SM cameos gave some new life to her.

To be fair, the rivalry with Gary wasn't handled in Kanto very well, too. He appeared frequently, but never battled with Ash.

 

[Redstar45]

To be fair, the rivalry with Gary wasn't handled in Kanto very well, too. He appeared frequently, but never battled with Ash.

That is one of my problem with Shudõ-san and kusaka's take on Pokemon universe .

 

[Jeal]

That is one of my problem with Shudõ-san and kusaka's take on Pokemon universe .

There is no problem in Adventures's take. The manga focuses more on the villainous team than on rivalry, so there was not enough time for battles between Red and Green.

 

[Redstar45]

That is still no excuse as i have seen the manga like one piece play with rivalry as awhile doing main plot so.......no i think kusaka just little lazy to do some work around

 

[PineapplePizza]

The problem is if you constantly showing Ash vs Gary battles you either have A. Show Gary constantly beating Ash making Ash look like a loser B. Have Ash beat Gary and defeat the point of Ash dealing with someone who is better than him.

Honestly the OS did it right way. They had Gary beat Ash once after Ash came fresh from his Orange League victory showing Ash still had a long way to go even with a trophy and then they had Ash beat Gary at the Silver Conference showing Ash had finally surpassed his rival.

 

[LilligantLewis]

The problem is if you constantly showing Ash vs Gary battles you either have A. Show Gary constantly beating Ash making Ash look like a loser B. Have Ash beat Gary and defeat the point of Ash dealing with someone who is better than him.

Honestly the OS did it right way. They had Gary beat Ash once after Ash came fresh from his Orange League victory showing Ash still had a long way to go even with a trophy and then they had Ash beat Gary at the Silver Conference showing Ash had finally surpassed his rival.

and then the way Gary was used in the AG-DP transition was perfect as well -- beating Ash with an Electivire, only for Electivire to be Ash's final obstacle at the end of Sinnoh

 

[Redstar45]

That few good things come out of the os era but have gary some time lose and Ash wins few time is not that bad or you know........Maybe could you made it tie ?

 

[DatsRight]

The biggest problem is that the series was longer than any of these others, and while Gary technically had the same amount of roles as most later rivals, that was a far more minimal presence in a five season series, with long spaces he didn't appear at all.

Even worse since he appeared from the very first episode and with a few other appearances spaced shortly after that before a HUGE hiatus. The early parts of the series seemed to be building up to Ash putting Gary in his place, and then by the time he finally got to that, most of the audience had probably forgotten about him.

 

[LilligantLewis]

The biggest problem is that the series was longer than any of these others, and while Gary technically had the same amount of roles as most later rivals, that was a far more minimal presence in a five season series, with long spaces he didn't appear at all.

Even worse since he appeared from the very first episode and with a few other appearances spaced shortly after that before a HUGE hiatus. The early parts of the series seemed to be building up to Ash putting Gary in his place, and then by the time he finally got to that, most of the audience had probably forgotten about him.

maybe the same amount of roles but certainly not good quality roles with several battles like Paul, Barry, Trip, Stephan, Sawyer, and Alain.

 

[DatsRight]

maybe the same amount of roles but certainly not good quality roles with several battles like Paul, Barry, Trip, Stephan, Sawyer, and Alain.

I think the rival arc was one of those elements that was still in a primordial state in the OS (much like the regional villain team arc in AG). Shudo noted he found more interest in Ash's adversaries than Ash himself, though compared to Team Rocket and the likes, Gary felt far more like an obligation they half forgot about.

 

[Redstar45]

Not really as shuďõ-san don't have that power as Pokemon anime show when to Jhoto arc as look more light heart then Kanto hell even orange islands arc is more "fun" then the kanto arc do

 

[ash&charizardfan]

IMO johto series ruined the OS, kanto arc was good with lot of humour and well it was first series and OI was fun as well, but johto was very boring, the whole series was so slow in pace due t so many fillers, gary was rival yet he only appeared twice before the league, misty/brock were relegated to background, lack of battle tournament except whirl cup which would have done justice to gym leader background of both companions (this is one of the few positives of BW series), casey was energetic and yet she also appeared 2-3 times it was same with ritchie, no giselle she was the best COTD in kanto, lack of evolutions and most importantly lack of good arcs like goodra arc which they could have done with special eevee/espeon just like in adventures with red, or team rocket plot instead of just lugia and red gyarados.

 

[DatsRight]

IMO johto series ruined the OS, kanto arc was good with lot of humour and well it was first series and OI was fun as well, but johto was very boring, the whole series was so slow in pace due t so many fillers, gary was rival yet he only appeared twice before the league, misty/brock were relegated to background, lack of battle tournament except whirl cup which would have done justice to gym leader background of both companions (this is one of the few positives of BW series), casey was energetic and yet she also appeared 2-3 times it was same with ritchie, no giselle she was the best COTD in kanto, lack of evolutions and most importantly lack of good arcs like goodra arc which they could have done with special eevee/espeon just like in adventures with red, or team rocket plot instead of just lugia and red gyarados.

I think that extra season really dragged things to a halt. Had Johto been compressed to just two seasons of its most important/entertaining episodes, it likely could have kept some staying power and have felt far less stagnant. They had very little to hold up that extra year till Gen 3.

 

[PineapplePizza]

The biggest problem is that the series was longer than any of these others, and while Gary technically had the same amount of roles as most later rivals, that was a far more minimal presence in a five season series, with long spaces he didn't appear at all.

Even worse since he appeared from the very first episode and with a few other appearances spaced shortly after that before a HUGE hiatus. The early parts of the series seemed to be building up to Ash putting Gary in his place, and then by the time he finally got to that, most of the audience had probably forgotten about him.

Seeing as how the entire series was only suppose to last 18 months perhaps they did intend Ash to face and beat Gary in the Pokemon League (but not win the League as I think Shudo liked Ash as the underdog) but when they realized the series was going to extend to cover the Gold/Silver games decided to save it for Johto and then lost interest in Gary ?