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I’m just not so sure about how I feel about the OS anymore

Discussion in 'Pokémon Animé Discussion' started by srebak, Dec 30, 2018.

  1. LilligantLewis

    LilligantLewis primarina donna

    The third year is easily the best year of Johto, and it's not even close.
     
    Spider-Phoenix likes this.
  2. PineapplePizza

    PineapplePizza Well-Known Member

    I think DatsRight is just saying Johto could have been done in two years not that the third year itself was bad.

    Hell more happened in Master Quest than the previous Johto seasons. Ash got 4 badges, the Whirl Cup, the Silver Conference, andthe Lugia arc. It’s like they saved everything for the last season and just sat on their asses for two seasons
     
    PorcelainVulpix likes this.
  3. DatsRight

    DatsRight Well-Known Member

    Pretty much. If you took the better fillers and what actual arc elements occurred in Johto and compressed them into two seasons, it arguably would have paced okay. The first 4 badges and some of the show's best TR episodes occurred in the first two seasons after all. With that extra season's worth of excess, it's key problems (Brock and Misty not getting much to do, repetition, not a lot of alternative story) got exacerbated.
     
    PorcelainVulpix likes this.
  4. Kintaro

    Kintaro Well-Known Member

    In Johto they should have made Misty's water pokemon goal a series of mini-tournaments where she won some and earned some kind of token (similar to badges or ribbons), and the Whirl Cup could have functioned as her Grand Festival. I mean the Whirl Cup always felt like some kind of final tournament but there was...nothing before it. Anyone could enter.

    Back in Kanto/Orange Islands the lack of a goal for anyone other than Ash didn't matter because the series was new and fresh, but in Johto they should have used that time to focus on Misty, have Gary appear more, maybe even do more with Brock.
     
    maartjeverhoef likes this.
  5. srebak

    srebak Beginning Trainer

    @ whoever has said it here

    I can’t help but feel that saying that Ash losing to Gary in the beginning of Johto was a sign that he still had “a long way to go” is a bit of an exaggeration, considering the fact that there was still no denying that he was still fresh off of a victory against a seasoned battling champion, not by luck but by real battling prowess and genuine strategy.

    If anything, that loss to Gary was just a sign that, despite his victory over Drake, he was still not quite ready to settle his score with Gary just yet, and even that might be a bit of a stretch, since that first battle probably could have gone either way anyways.
     
    Shadao likes this.
  6. ash&charizardfan

    ash&charizardfan Humanity's greatest soldier

    Dont forget about red gyarados arc, extreme episode episode/phanpy's hatching and whole larvitar arc, wasn't the last series around 65-70 episodes maybe due to this half of master quest was still fillers, maybe there should be more evolution episodes like with baylleef and cyndaquil.
     
  7. Kintaro

    Kintaro Well-Known Member

    Cyndaquil should have evolved in the Jasmine Gym battle, it would have been the perfect time.
     
  8. Jeal

    Jeal Well-Known Member

    Now that you mention it, does anyone know why Chikorita has evolved and the others have not? Was her evolutionary line more popular in Japan than Totodile's and Cyndaquil's?
     
  9. Redstar45

    Redstar45 The Fire type master !

    Dunno
     
  10. PineapplePizza

    PineapplePizza Well-Known Member

    They really should have done Johto in two years and then use that third year to do another anime exclusive Pokemon League like Orange Islands to kill time until Hoen.



    Or Maybe have Ash go back into Kanto like the gen 2 games and rechallenge the gym leaders or something? They could have established Aya (instead of Janine) replacing Koga as the Fushia Gym Leader, Gary taking over from Giovanni as the Viridian City gym leader, show the reformed Sabrina, establish Brock’s younger brother as the new Pewter Gym Leader, and use this story to put Misty back at the Cerulean Gym. Have Ash re enter the Indigo League and then face the Elite 4 (gen 1 or gen 2 Elite Four)
     
    Redstar45 likes this.
  11. Kutie Pie

    Kutie Pie "It is my destiny."

    It's totally okay to like the OS while still being critical of its flaws as it really and truly has a lot of them, many of which didn't get "corrected" or "smoothed out" until later seasons, though that was because Pokémon went through at least one or two changes in staff (mostly in the writing department). Nostalgia can easily blind you, yet even if you take the rose-tinted glasses off, you can still find something enjoyable in the original Pokémon seasons, or at least understand why it is kids love Pokémon so much. Like personally, I will always say the first episode is the best first episode of just about anything because it perfectly showcases what made the Pokémon world so fascinating as a kid despite the hang-ups it ended up getting later on. I also found myself liking Orange Islands after years of remembering what it was like before I got to look at it again during a rewatch. I used to think Orange Islands was just "okay", but it's a fresh coat of paint that Pokémon needed that most folks didn't seem to care for back in the day, although it suffers from being a short season and Tracey kinda got the shaft, at least in the dub. And while Johto's a slog to get through, I found it to be the funniest saga of the OS even with similar flaws from the first season. Maybe this is just bias talking as Johto is my favorite region, but it never failed to put a smile on my face.

    Really, I think it all depends on your attitude of the season that determines if you'll enjoy it or not. If you need to take a break from a certain season, that's fine. If you prefer later seasons to the OS, that's fine, too. Everyone has their own preferences, and shame on those who tell you you're wrong for not liking the OS. From my experience, most of those decrying the newer seasons are the ones who stopped watching Pokémon around Hoenn or so (some stopped around Johto), and still foam at the mouth over the change in voice actors.

    Yeah, I do agree people were a bit harsh toward Ash for how he was raising his Pokémon, but as a rookie trainer, he needed to be told out-right when he was doing something wrong, and tough love is a viable option. The thing about Ash is that he actually does take to heart what people teach him because he really and truly wants to learn, as that's how he'll become a great Pokémon master like he wants. He's a fighter and a dreamer, not a quitter.

    I believe there's at least two reasons for this. One: I don't believe Ash was ready to handle a Pokémon that needs a lot of attention and training to bring out its full potential; the Charizard line is a difficult one to train from what is shown in the anime. Whomever was the Charmander trainer from Pallet Town gave up on their journey for whatever reason, but I'm assuming one of those reasons is because his starter became a hassle to raise. Outside of Professor Oak mentioning Gary and the others had long passed that point, that's why I don't believe it was Damien who was the Charmander trainer of Pallet.

    Two: Charmeleon's personality may have changed upon evolving during the Exeggutor episode, but it looked proud of itself for evolving then and there. The next time we see Charmeleon was when Ash basically forced it to "battle" Paras when it didn't want to because Paras was weak, and the Charizard line (bar the docile Charmander, perhaps) doesn't turn its flame on weak opponents. So Charmeleon rebelled as a result of its pride being wounded so soon after it evolved, which took Ash until the middle of the Orange Islands to regain its trust--most importantly, its respect. Yet when he went to Johto, he knew he wasn't being a good trainer to Charizard, so that's why he left it in Charicific Valley to train. It wasn't an easy choice to make, but it was for the best, and now Charizard's one of his most loyal, most powerful Pokémon. If I remember right, characters in-universe are actually impressed with Ash's bond with his Charizard, even though I think he's aware he still has a ways to go before Charizard reaches its full potential.

    My guess is because Chikorita wanted her trainer's love and attention, and her evolving brought her one step closer to being his favorite waifu. She was kind of the opposite of Bulbasaur despite acting sort of like Bulbasaur when they first met her.

    Totodile hasn't evolved most likely because it means he can't be the energetic, cute Pokémon he currently is. He can get away with things more as a Totodile than as a Croconaw.
     
  12. Spider-Phoenix

    Spider-Phoenix Go, Go Power Rangers

    And some hardcore shippers. I've met some of those who hate and ignore the later seasons because it doesn't support their pairing.

    Good take in the whole thing. Maybe that's one of the reasons why Ash didn't get to mega evolve his Charizard?
     
  13. Jeal

    Jeal Well-Known Member

    This is an in-universe reason, but I want a real world reason.
     
  14. Kutie Pie

    Kutie Pie "It is my destiny."

    Who knows, maybe they flipped a coin and Chikorita won. Not that it really matters, given his Johto team hardly got the attention they deserved (especially in the Silver Conference).
     
    PorcelainVulpix likes this.
  15. srebak

    srebak Beginning Trainer

    @Kutie Pie

    1. I still think that that was a bit of a harsh way of doing things. It’s like the old saying goes “you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar”. Maybe Ash would have been more receptive to people and their opinions if they weren’t so harsh and condescending with their “advice”.

    2. If that last one is true then Charmeleon was being even more arrogant than Ash was accused of being. Keep in mind that Ash was only doing that with Paras because he was trying to help it and its trainer, Ash himself does not like to lose and would never agree to do so unless it served a greater good like it did in that one episode. And Ash was already getting mocked, criticized and condescended towards right and left in that episode as it was.

    Also, I’m pretty sure that the only real reason that Ash left his Charizard behind in Johto was simply because of the fact that he knew that the Fire-type wanted to become stronger like the charizard that it saw in the valley. I don’t think that he ‘wasn’t treating him right’, he just wanted Charizard to have the chance to become stronger, since he knows how much that means to the Pokémon.


    @Spider-Phoenix

    By the time that mega evolution was even a thing that Ash was even made aware of, he and Charizard had already formed a bond that couldn’t be broken, so I’m pretty sure that he didn’t mega evolve him for these majorly important reasons;

    1. Charizard was not with him at the time

    2. He still did not fully understand just how Mega evolution worked just yet

    3. He had no Charizardite or any type of keystone
     
  16. PineapplePizza

    PineapplePizza Well-Known Member

    I honestly think they only evolved Chikorita evolved into Bayleef because they wanted to do the joke of Bayleaf trying to jump into Ash’s arms like it still thinks its a tiny Chikorita
     
    PorcelainVulpix likes this.
  17. Kutie Pie

    Kutie Pie "It is my destiny."

    Even so, I've noticed throughout Pokémon that Ash isn't always being treated like a kid, least not in the sense of being talked down to, backing up Shudo's vision of ten-year-olds being considered adults in the Pokémon world. However, what I've also noticed is that a lot of people Ash end up interacting with have a change of heart of sorts, and they learn to treat others better. Or if they're someone like Damian, they get their ass handed to them by the end of the episode.

    I also think part of it is because of how the Japanese approach discipline and how they raise their children, particularly boys. They're a bit more strict about it than western society, and they metaphorically/literally beat it into their boys' heads the concept of tough love in order to get them to integrate into society when they grow up. Ash is your typical hero protagonist in a world of grunge and cynics, and he doesn't give up and give in to other people. He learns lessons, but he puts his own spin on it when raising his Pokémon. Apparently his bond with his Pokémon is considered unique in-universe (at least it was in the OS if I remember right when people aren't telling him to get his Charmeleon/Charizard under control), and that's why people find themselves drawn to him because he's different and shows no sign of being beaten down. He's pretty much the shining beacon of the series, and he gets noticed by a lot of important figureheads throughout his journey.

    Of course, but Charmeleon didn't see it that way. That's why Charmeleon acts up the next time you see it, but neither Ash nor anyone else put two-and-two together for why it began disobeying him. His only solution was to just not use it for a while, which is what a bad, rookie trainer does, and it only made things worse for him until the Orange Islands.

    He recognized Charizard wanted to get stronger and he's made it perfectly clear he understands his Pokémon have personalities and dreams to fulfill. But he also knew that as he currently was as a trainer, he couldn't help Charizard get stronger. That's why he left it at the valley, it was so the both of them could get stronger for each other. Despite Best Wishes degrading Ash's character, he can handle Charizard better nowadays than he could back in Johto, which is why Charizard's back on his team (albeit at Oak's place, currently).
     
    PorcelainVulpix likes this.
  18. srebak

    srebak Beginning Trainer

    Ash was handling Charizard just fine during all of Johto’s episodes, I’ve never seen him have trouble with it during that saga
     
  19. Kutie Pie

    Kutie Pie "It is my destiny."

    Yeah, he handled Charizard okay, but as shown with Liza teaching him how to ride Charizard, he actually didn't have complete control, it was just more willing to listen to him by then (sometimes). The Charizard in the valley also were much more powerful than Ash's Charizard, and it wanted to get stronger to prove its worth. Ash recognized he couldn't do that for his Pokémon at that point in time, hence why he left it there to train. It paid off, and now he's more than capable of having Charizard on his team enough so it's Ash's MVP, but I suspect there's still more to be done for it to get stronger. Unfortunately, however, we're most likely not going to be seeing that.
     
  20. pokemon fan 132

    pokemon fan 132 Well-Known Member

    When i read some of this comments i wander was Johto really that bad as some consider it to be? Some sort of "dark age of Pokemon anime" that almost ruined entire show? Because i certainly don't see it that way, say what you want but imo Johto did much more things right than BW anime did for example, having actual continuity , no reset of Ash, vibrant and cohesive dynamic among main cast members, arguably more interesting plots etc.

    Granted Johto did suffer from no real direction, which can be thanked to: drop of GS ball,
    -mr. Shudo becoming apathetic to pokemon anime as whole due to his vision of how poke world should be and ideas being shut down by his superiors
    -lack of coordination and agreement between writers themselves and producers in not being sure in what direction to take journey as whole
    -this being to be fair first time writers and staff had on their hand three year long region not being as skilled in pacing and balancing things out as they were later on.

    However Johto also had one of best leagues in history of pokemon show
    -lot of interesting arcs and side adventures such as: Whirl Islands archipelago crowned with Whirl Cup tournament
    -Lugia and Red Gyarados arc
    -arc with Claire and stolen dragon fang
    arc with Articuno and Todd Snapp
    etc

    It had lot of interesting pokemon and some frankly quite promising and interesting characters like Casey for example.
    Needless to say Ash, Misty and Brock still had that fire and spark between them feeling like genuine and close group of friends maturing from their adventures.

    Speaking of which while you could say Misty was neglected, it wasnt any more than Brock. Due to actually battling more, having more episodes focused on her and spotlight than Brock did. Along with still being full of personality and enjoyable traits bouncing of nicely with TR, other characters and pokemon . If anything as much as some turn blind eye on it Master Quest put her back on right track developing nicely.

    Also in Johto TR was still at full height being full of colrful antics, funny escapades and original enough plans having several gems out of sea of episodes. "Dues and donts!" is one of them. So all in all while it had lot of fillers and many were quite boring episodes, Johto as whole wasn't terrible. It all depends about what part of Johto were talking about when OS are analyzed.

     

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