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I really wish the writers would stop "trying new things"

D

Deleted member 384931

Guest
If you don't like it, just quit. I mean you can discuss stuff, but sometimes threads like this transform in "I like the anime" vs "I dont". That takes out the pleasure for those who like it. And I dont understand why people that dont like the direction the anime takes, are still around. Instead of hate, search an anime you like and you will be alot happier. Saying in the past isnt healthy either.
 

UltimateNinja

Praying for the holy relics
I can welcome changes if they are as good or better than the replaced elements. If they are worse, then they ARE worse and them being something new doesn't make them better. New doesn't automatically mean better.

The old format pretty much was a solid groundwork and just got tweaked over time and from AG onward it was just fine as it was. They tried changes with SM and now PM2019 and the most changes they introduced were lackluster in concept and often bad in execution, especially the PM2019 ones.

They showed me twice that they can't revolutionize the anime. They at least tried to bring SoL elements in SM while PM2019's whole concept was just garbage from the beginning and, just like predicted, also in the execution.
 

Scorbunnie

Well-Known Member
Changes can be good but the writing staff don't always know what they're doing. I don't mean to complain about them but some times their decisions make me scratch my head. They need to get their act together.
 

J Bouken

Active Member
If I could give a controversial opinion here, the show's problems did not start with BW, as many claim, but actually started with AG and continued on all the way through to the end of BW. They repeated storylines and ideas ad nauseum, to the point the show became devoid of creativity. Needless to say, I do not want a return to those days and am delighted the show has tried new ideas.

To elaborate on why I think AG-BW were the problem, it's mostly to do with Ash's characterisation. It's often said he had consistent character progression up until the end of DP, but I find this to be a misconception. He had a character arc throughout OS, but noticeably regressed in different places throughout AG and DP, with him ultimately learning the lessons he had already been taught.

In AG, Ash grew arrogant after his seventh badge, and had to be put in his place by Drake so he could learn to remain focused. But one of the key parts of his original character arc was learning to leave his ego at the door and focus on the needs of his Pokemon, which was symbolised by his changing relationship with Charizard. Why did he need to learn this lesson again?

After the Battle Frontier, Ash lost to Gary so he could learn that there are still challenges to be overcome, but this exact thing had already happened at the end of the Orange Islands arc. Why did he need to be taught this again?

Then, we get to the start of DP. At this point, you'd think Ash would be over shouting matches with people, right? Well, DP thought otherwise. Ash was very confrontational with both Dawn and Paul in those early episode, far removed the emotional maturity he was supposed to have gained by that point.

I feel a lot of this is ignored because Ash's skill as a trainer was relatively consistent during that period, which gave this impression he was steadily progressing. It was only when BW messed with that progression that people started to complain about resets and soft-reboots, when those complaints were about six years too late.

Pokemon during that time was, effectively, caught in a loop of telling the same story over and over. It had no idea what to do with Ash after his initial arc had concluded, so they just made him have the same experiences. Ultimately, this made the show dull and predictable.

XY broke this cycle by actually doing something with Ash's character. He was both skilled and wiser, and adopted a role of guiding others rather than being guided himself. They realised at this point that Ash was now a flat character with little scope for change, and so used him as a catalyst for growth in others. SM (and this will blow people's mind) was a natural progression of that, putting Ash in a slower paced environment where his love for life itself could shine through. People often point out how Ash's lack of drive or focus in SM was a sign of regression, but I thought it was the complete opposite. These were signs Ash had matured as a person and had a broader view of the world than just Pokemon battles.

And this is just Ash. If Pokemon wasn't prepared to try new things, they'd still be using recycled stock footage in XY when its director was pushing for something better. We wouldn't have got a character as a genuine love interest, or a renewed focus on action scenes, or a drastic improvement in animation style and quality, or storylines about death and parents neglecting their children, or Ash actually being allowed to succeed. There are misses along the way, but this is much preferable to me than just more of the same.
 
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Leonhart

Imagineer
I personally don't even feel that the current series is a case of the writers not executing new ideas well. I think Pocket Monsters works well even if it's not exactly the pinnacle of good writing. I think that a lot of people just had incredibly high expectations for the new series that were honestly rather unrealistic. Anyone who has watched the anime for even just a few years should know what to expect from the writers, even with a slight change in formula.
 

Blastmaster

Well-Known Member
If I could give a controversial opinion here, the show's problems did not start with BW, as many claim, but actually started with AG and continued on all the way through to the end of BW. They repeated storylines and ideas ad nauseum, to the point the show became devoid of creativity. Needless to say, I do not want a return to those days and am delighted the show has tried new ideas.

To elaborate on why I think AG-BW were the problem, it's mostly to do with Ash's characterisation. It's often said he had consistent character progression up until the end of DP, but I find this to be a misconception. He had a character arc throughout OS, but noticeably regressed in different places throughout AG and DP, with him ultimately learning the lessons he had already been taught.

In AG, Ash grew arrogant after his seventh badge, and had to be put in his place by Drake so he could learn to remain focused. But one of the key parts of his original character arc was learning to leave his ego at the door and focus on the needs of his Pokemon, which was symbolised by his changing relationship with Charizard. Why did he need to learn this lesson again?

After the Battle Frontier, Ash lost to Gary so he could learn that there are still challenges to be overcome, but this exact thing had already happened at the end of the Orange Islands arc. Why did he need to be taught this again?

Then, we get to the start of DP. At this point, you'd think Ash would be over shouting matches with people, right? Well, DP thought otherwise. Ash was very confrontational with both Dawn and Paul in those early episode, far removed the emotional maturity he was supposed to have gained by that point.

I feel a lot of this is ignored because Ash's skill as a trainer was relatively consistent during that period, which gave this impression he was steadily progressing. It was only when BW messed with that progression that people started to complain about resets and soft-reboots, when those complaints were about six years too late.

Pokemon during that time was, effectively, caught in a loop of telling the same story over and over. It had no idea what to do with Ash after his initial arc had concluded, so they just made him have the same experiences. Ultimately, this made the show dull and predictable.

XY broke this cycle by actually doing something with Ash's character. He was both skilled and wiser, and adopted a role of guiding others rather than being guided himself. They realised at this point that Ash was now a flat character with little scope for change, and so used him as a catalyst for growth in others. SM (and this will blow people's mind) was a natural progression of that, putting Ash in a slower paced environment where his love for life itself could shine through. People often point out how Ash's lack of drive or focus in SM was a sign of regression, but I thought it was the complete opposite. These were signs Ash had matured as a person and had a broader view of the world than just Pokemon battles.

And this is just Ash. If Pokemon wasn't prepared to try new things, they'd still be using recycled stock footage in XY when its director was pushing for something better. We wouldn't have got a character as a genuine love interest, or a renewed focus on action scenes, or a drastic improvement in animation style and quality, or storylines about death and parents neglecting their children, or Ash actually being allowed to succeed. There are misses along the way, but this is much preferable to me than just more of the same.
I still really dislike the mindset that Ash needs to be incredibly mature about everything and that there's no need for him to grow. Being loud and overexpressive is part of who Ash is, and he should be allowed to be that way and occasionally suffer karma for it. Hell, even in XY it's still a part of who he is, it's just that they lose a lot of self-awareness about it. I've said on a different thread that one of my biggest problems with XY is how they're always treating Ash with more glory than he actually deserves. He's less rude than before, but still incredibly dense in both romance and mentoring, yet they're always acting like he's hit his peak as a person. One thing I actually like about SM is bringing Ash off that pedestal and being more aware of his flaws even when he becomes Champion.

Plus I think you're ignoring the context for those other series. The Battle Frontier was bigger than the Orange League, and since Ash had already beaten Gary before and caused him to change his goal to a researcher, it made sense for Ash to be overconfident and be put in his place. Ash was immature and confrontational in his first few encounters with Paul because he had never met someone so radically different to him. I don't disagree that AG and DP could be very repetitive in some areas, but I'd say these ones were pretty justified.
 

Kein

AKA Silktree
The games are very repetitive, so the idea that the anime should stick to them as a template doesn't work for me. SwSh's one claim to fame, the Wild Area, isn't even something new for the anime. Neither is Dynamax, but that's rather lame to begin with.

I'd wait to see what kind of goal Ash ends up with before judging the new series.
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
I feel like the formula changes were kind of vital because it was obvious by the minute that the old formula was becoming more and more lethargic and automated. People were DREADING the presence of old staples like COTD and Team Rocket by the time of DP and stuff like Ash losing every league and never being allowed to make many vital new steps as a trainer was becoming an obvious roadblock by XY. Formulaic shows tend to work if the writers can keep interest in making the same outcome entertaining each and every time, but it was obvious that the anime was becoming more and more boring through their's.

The bigger issue is that the writers, likely due to the long runner format and being so reliant as the formula as a crutch for so long, are going through a lot of trial and error. With that said I think SM's pros outweighed its cons and it held up as well as some of the more 'classic' styled series beforehand, it was a valid attempt at something new, even if it was FAR from flawless. It also broke several trends in terms of basic arc progression that could be beneficial to later series, even ones that may moderate and follow the old format more closely (eg. Ash and companions being allowed to WIN their goal quest, more elusive Pokemon being free game as main characters captures, more emphasis and validity given to non-battling agendas).

If several series had tried their own more ambitious directions I don't think it would have been as glaring, but by then people were used to the anime working on a very strict structure. PM2019's problem at the moment is that it doesn't seem to have a really clear direction, so just seems like it's blindly changing for the sake of it, though it could develop a good premise later on and add some extra plot terms like SM did. Adding more versatile options for the storytelling isn't a bad thing.
 
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Leonhart

Imagineer
mintellic said:
The old forumla was stale because Brock and Team Rocket were still in every episode up to the end of DP, more or less repeating their same gags from the OS. It's really been an eye opener how Brock being gone for the last 4 series and Team Rocket NOT being in every episode really freshened things up.

I'm glad that Takeshi left at the end of DP since he wasn't doing much good in the cast to begin with, although the decline in the number of Rocket-dan appearances in recent sagas is unfortunate. I think the trio are some of the most entertaining characters in the whole franchise, so I'm sad that they don't appear as often nowadays.
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
I'm glad that Takeshi left at the end of DP since he wasn't doing much good in the cast to begin with, although the decline in the number of Rocket-dan appearances in recent sagas is unfortunate. I think the trio are some of the most entertaining characters in the whole franchise, so I'm sad that they don't appear as often nowadays.

Demoting TR wasn't great, but moderating their appearances was probably for the best. It was getting monotonous having each episode trying to shoehorn them into the plot, or cut short whatever story was going for a generic TR party crash and curbstomp. BW and SM's formula breakers were arguably a better direction in that area since they were more liable to give TR something else to do in many episodes.

The bigger problem with Brock is that he was a character they didn't seem that interested in. If anything his formula kept getting repeated and refined with each replacement anyway. Kiawe was arguably closest to the role Brock SHOULD have been (ie. supporting mentor character with some comic relief moments but also valid involvement and chemistry with the rest of the cast and some tidbits of development here and there). In that sense it could be considered an old staple that benefited from formula changes since the male companion had more to do the more versatile the plots were.
 

J Bouken

Active Member
I still really dislike the mindset that Ash needs to be incredibly mature about everything and that there's no need for him to grow. Being loud and overexpressive is part of who Ash is, and he should be allowed to be that way and occasionally suffer karma for it. Hell, even in XY it's still a part of who he is, it's just that they lose a lot of self-awareness about it. I've said on a different thread that one of my biggest problems with XY is how they're always treating Ash with more glory than he actually deserves. He's less rude than before, but still incredibly dense in both romance and mentoring, yet they're always acting like he's hit his peak as a person. One thing I actually like about SM is bringing Ash off that pedestal and being more aware of his flaws even when he becomes Champion.

This isn't what I'm driving at. I mean, I'm not suggesting for one moment that maturity means stoicism, or that it's necessarily wrong for Ash to continue having moments where he lashes out at people. I even had the same problem with XY that you did. However, I do believe XY took the character in the right direction, insofar as realising he no longer needed to change because had no great flaw he needed to fix. They instead leveraged his strengths to push other characters, which I thought was a far smarter use of his character than shoehorning the same lessons in and pretending it's all new for him.

Plus I think you're ignoring the context for those other series. The Battle Frontier was bigger than the Orange League, and since Ash had already beaten Gary before and caused him to change his goal to a researcher, it made sense for Ash to be overconfident and be put in his place

I don't buy Ash being overconfident in that moment for a few reasons:

1) Ash had already learned this lesson when he lost to Drake
2) It took him several attempts to defeat Brandon
3) Not once has he claimed responsibility for Gary's career change or considered it a personal triumph
4) He specifically turned down Scott's offer because he wanted to keep travelling; he already knew the Battle Frontier wasn't the end for him

So I really don't know why they thought having him lose to Gary was necessary.

Ash was immature and confrontational in his first few encounters with Paul because he had never met someone so radically different to him.

There was a trainer way back in OS who had even more radical training methods than Paul. Ash confronted him, got his ass handed to him a battle, and left understanding that there many ways to train Pokemon that'll differ from his own. This was when Ash was at his most immature as a person. There was also Damon, who happily discarded Charmander for being weak. So the concept of a trainer who a) has a strict training regimen and b) values power is hardly new to Ash. Fact is, Ash has met people like Paul before. For Ash to act in such a way when meeting him just isn't consistent with his character growth.
 

Blastmaster

Well-Known Member
This isn't what I'm driving at. I mean, I'm not suggesting for one moment that maturity means stoicism, or that it's necessarily wrong for Ash to continue having moments where he lashes out at people. I even had the same problem with XY that you did. However, I do believe XY took the character in the right direction, insofar as realising he no longer needed to change because had no great flaw he needed to fix. They instead leveraged his strengths to push other characters, which I thought was a far smarter use of his character than shoehorning the same lessons in and pretending it's all new for him.
Okay, that makes more sense. I still don't know about exclusively using Ash to push other characters though. I always think there's some room for a protagonist to keep growing and learning, but I might just be less strict about what counts as learning.
I don't buy Ash being overconfident in that moment for a few reasons:

1) Ash had already learned this lesson when he lost to Drake
2) It took him several attempts to defeat Brandon
3) Not once has he claimed responsibility for Gary's career change or considered it a personal triumph
4) He specifically turned down Scott's offer because he wanted to keep travelling; he already knew the Battle Frontier wasn't the end for him

So I really don't know why they thought having him lose to Gary was necessary.
It probably wasn't necessary necessary so much as it was an easy excuse to get Ash to Sinnoh. Overconfidence was a recurring thing in AG, so I can kind of excuse it personally, but that's just me.
There was a trainer way back in OS who had even more radical training methods than Paul. Ash confronted him, got his ass handed to him a battle, and left understanding that there many ways to train Pokemon that'll differ from his own. This was when Ash was at his most immature as a person. There was also Damon, who happily discarded Charmander for being weak. So the concept of a trainer who a) has a strict training regimen and b) values power is hardly new to Ash. Fact is, Ash has met people like Paul before. For Ash to act in such a way when meeting him just isn't consistent with his character growth.
I actually forgot about AJ, but between him and Damian there was never any character who did both of those things. Not to mention, Damian was a one-note villain who all the characters hated. It would absolutely be in-character for Ash to be angry at a Trainer releasing a Pokemon for being weak.

And honestly, with how drastically different season 1's tone was, I feel like you gotta take a lot of its aesops/characterizations with a grain of salt. I think it's fine to revisit and flesh out ideas that hadn't been touched on in a decade, even if it's technically true that those characters existed.
 

Leonhart

Imagineer
DatsRight said:
Demoting TR wasn't great, but moderating their appearances was probably for the best. It was getting monotonous having each episode trying to shoehorn them into the plot, or cut short whatever story was going for a generic TR party crash and curbstomp. BW and SM's formula breakers were arguably a better direction in that area since they were more liable to give TR something else to do in many episodes.

I just find the Rocket-dan to be more entertaining than most of the side characters, so seeing them be demoted to smaller roles hurts. I'm not denying that the writers overused them from OS through DP, but I thought that Best Wishes had the perfect balance of Rocket-dan screen-time.
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
I just find the Rocket-dan to be more entertaining than most of the side characters, so seeing them be demoted to smaller roles hurts. I'm not denying that the writers overused them from OS through DP, but I thought that Best Wishes had the perfect balance of Rocket-dan screen-time.

I think the difference there is that BW used them more creatively, making them put up better fights against the twerps or have more inventive or long term schemes. Even when they were comedic again they tended to be used in better moderation and had either more challenging or funny face offs that flowed into the plot more satisfyingly. XY kept this up for a short while, but eventually went back to the same formulaic excess but even blander than DP, same quotes and curbstomps each episode that feel more like an interruption to the story. SM did relatively better, though even there they often felt like a third wheel, especially given the series more comedic and chemistry focus otherwise (Ultra Legends TR weren't too bad though, they managed to use them a little more often but still generally be funny in execution).

It is a shame SM didn't really capitalise on TR being more a threat I admit, some 'not so harmless' fights could have made up for the series' general drought of battles, not to mention most of the companions in that series had low provisions anyway so would hardly look weakened fighting them but at least having to put up a BIT of effort or outsmart a more elaborate scheme, especially since TR got a Z Ring before half of them.
 
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Spider-Phoenix

#ChespinGang
The key difference between Paul and AJ is that with the later, it didn't take long for Ash to figure out that while harsh, AJ did care for his pokémon.

The same can't be said about Paul. For all we know, his main goal is strenght and Pokémon are only tools for that. I don't recall the series implies Paul cares or actually likes his pokémon. I feel that's what they were going for with Paul. At least as for his early appearances.
 

U.N. Owen

In Brightest Day, In Blackest Night ...
The same can't be said about Paul. For all we know, his main goal is strenght and Pokémon are only tools for that. I don't recall the series implies Paul cares or actually likes his pokémon. I feel that's what they were going for with Paul. At least as for his early appearances.

I think the idea is that Paul is a tiger parent. He does reward his pokemon by paying people to trip Torterra's shrubbery. The problem is that A) this style of parenting isn't as prominent as it is the East B) the drawbacks are not addressed, especially since people in the East like Korea are trying to address the problems of tiger parenting and C) we never see how any of his pokemon deal with his harshness.

It would be interesting if Chimchar was an exception and that every other one of Paul's pokemon is fanatically loyal to him despite how he treats him because they see this as a path to power. Not to mention, he's so overthetop when his harshness is that I'm surprised he doesn't have a mustache to twirl.
 

Leonhart

Imagineer
Spider-Phoenix said:
The key difference between Paul and AJ is that with the later, it didn't take long for Ash to figure out that while harsh, AJ did care for his pokémon.

The same can't be said about Paul. For all we know, his main goal is strenght and Pokémon are only tools for that. I don't recall the series implies Paul cares or actually likes his pokémon. I feel that's what they were going for with Paul. At least as for his early appearances.

Speaking of Shinji, I wish that the writers had thought to add a replacement for Shigeru during AG instead of them waiting until DP. AG was a great saga, but I can't help but feel that it would've been even better if Satoshi had had a recurring rival during the Houen saga.
 

Spider-Phoenix

#ChespinGang
I think Paul was introduced at the right time. I feel like he wouldn't really work on AG. But maybe that's just me.

Not to mention, he's so overthetop when his harshness is that I'm surprised he doesn't have a mustache to twirl.

I'm not. He is supposed to be Ash's age so the reason he doesn't have a mustache is that it's not time for one to grow lol
 

Soniman

Break the Limit
Oh hell no i disagree with the title
"don't fix what isn't broken" It was broken. Oh it was broken so so so much. It was stale, boring, unoriginal and ash was slowly losing personality
it's a good thing people loved BW Ash and no one EVER complained about XY Ash being a soulless battle robot constantly. Man I'm sure glad continuous story telling was thrown out it really changed things for the better!

(if the sarcasm wasn't thick enough I thoroughly disagree with this mindset)
 
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