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I want Ash to lose Leagues

Discussion in 'Pokémon Animé Discussion' started by Vini310, Jul 13, 2018.

  1. Vini310

    Vini310 Well-Known Member

    If his victory has no significance to him as a character and it's just a "I won! Now I'll go to another region!" (Orange League, Battle Frontier), then there's no need to make him win.
    And, according to some episodes, after winning a League, a Trainer must face the Elite Four. Ash has faced some Elite Fours and Champions before, and he lost every single battle (and don't came even close to win), so what's worse: not winning the League or win the League just to lose to a E4/Champion and star everything (including the "badge hunt")? There isn't even a guarantee that Ash will become a Pokémon Master if he win, and if he DOES become one on the instant he wins, then we will have LOTS of plot holes. At least in the manga (The Electric Tale of Pikachu, which is based on the anime), it's told that Pokémon Masters are simply elite Trainers (i.e. Elite Fours, Champions, Trainers who did something amazing, like catching a Legendary, or simply win the League) with celebrity status, but we don't know if the anime follows that definition (well, Ash won the Orange League AND can become a Frontier Brain, and yet don't call himself a Pokémon Master).
    I don't want a new protagonist neither, because that would be a very dumb thing to do, unless they changed the entire plot and don't give the new protagonist a Pikachu, but if it's the entire "get badges and win the league" thing, than it's a waste of time to do so. SM is proving that it's possible to make something new without changing the protagonist, and based on everything I've seen until now, I can say that SM is the best thing that happened to the Pokémon anime (M20 onward also count).
    Even if Ash wins the Alola League, he will go to another region and continue until become a Pokémon Master, a title that nobody knows what is how to obtain. Pokémon is about the journey, not the end, that's why I always download a new Pokémon game after finishing one, it's something eternal to me and for the writers as well.
  2. DatsRight

    DatsRight Well-Known Member

    I'd be fine with him losing if they actually did something clever with it. XY was SORTA there, because it has the moral victor thing and was story integrated and what not, but still couldn't resist some serious hype bait. Every other series, Ash just...loses and that's kinda it. Johto and DP at least had personal rivalries the bigger part of it I suppose but it does feel very much like un-tweaked formula otherwise.

    It feels like it's slowly becoming the whole point that Ash is an 'almighty janitor', he loses at the leagues but along the way he commits a ridiculously large amount of accomplishments in the process of doing so, largely without even taking much notice of it. I feel like they should play more on that factor and make for interesting twists, it's not like much anyone is going to believe he'll win now anyway.

    I'm actually kinda hoping SM tries something clever in particular, even if he loses. It's pretty much SM Ash's whole character that he's a buffoonish failure at face value but dependable and super competent where it counts.
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2018
  3. Ignition

    Ignition *stares into your soul*

    Do we just ignore AG vs Mega Gardevoir?

    Anyway, as @DatsRight said, I don't care if Ash loses as long as it's reasonable. I still hate how his first league loss went and, besides his Unova loss, I find the rest of his league losses at least fair.

    I do think that, if he won a league, him going off to another region wouldn't be bad. Look at trainers like Red, Steven, and Cynthia. While not truly analogous to Ash, they do still travel to get more experience, training, and simple sightseeing. That fits Ash. He values the journey just as much as his aspiration to become a Pokémon Master.

    As for your "what's worse", I'd say losing the League. Him making it to even the first E4 is progress. It's just like him @ Sinnoh & Kalos's Leagues; sure the loss is really aggravating, but, in retrospect, in shows that he's approving. If he got to that point, that is incredible.

    Now, even when knowing he'll never win unless Pokémon reaches its final days in the unseeable future, it at least pleases me that he's not stagnant. Overall, while I'm generally accepting of his infamous loser streak, I could see how him winning one could hypothetically work.
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2018
  4. andrewscott48209

    andrewscott48209 Well-Known Member

    While I also didn't like the result of the Indigo league, I did like what came of it. This loss taught Ash that, just because he got eight badges (and no, I'm not discussing how Ash received then), doesn't mean he's the only one, nor does it mean that, once he got the eight badges, he's automatically the best trainer. And having Charizard disobey him at the most crucial moment helped expose what Ash needed to do to get better. He wound up going to the Orange island, and through many trials, he finally got Charizard to listen to him consistently. This not only set up his win in the Orange league; it also put him on the path to even better improve himself in the Johto region.
  5. mehmeh1

    mehmeh1 Well-Known Member

    the main problem with that is that it wasn't only because of charizard or his own inexperience, it was because he got attacked by the TRio right before the match and the referee randomly decided that sleep status (as in sleep powder)=KO
  6. DatsRight

    DatsRight Well-Known Member

    Plus you know, it was Kanto, where everyone had it in for Ash and blamed everything that went wrong for him on the fact he was a rookie that hadn't instantly learned the ropes.

    Truthfully I think the fatigue would work better if both Ash and the show had more self awareness of it. Even XY felt off by how nonchalantly he took the loss. I'm fine with him having developed past being a sore loser and able to get past it, but I feel like Ash would feel more fleshed out and sympathetic in this regard if he at least had some subtle display of wistful or worn down reactions to never getting any closer to his goal. He's a good sport and he can be happy for other people, but losing each and every league after so long has to hurt.

    For Trio for example, the fact they are stuck in a sisyphean goal is at least part of their personality and sympathy value, and many episodes demonstrate they'd be better just giving it up for a legitimate occupation (most of which they are much better at).
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2018
  7. U.N. Owen

    U.N. Owen In Brightest Day, In Blackest Night ...

    And that's the tragedy of the matter. We're not asking if he can win this one. We're asking what's the point of winning this one? In reality, Ash's goal lacks an ending point. Everything happens in a cycle. But hey, to quote Dr. Strange "But I can lose. Again. And again. And again. And again, forever. That makes you my prisoner."
    SinnohEevee and Pokegirl Fan~ like this.
  8. DatsRight

    DatsRight Well-Known Member

    It's a thing about formulas, they often are designed to go on ad nauseam and usually end the same way each time. What the anime often overlooks is that the appeal of formulas is HOW they are set on this same loop. The outcome may be the same, but the build up to it doesn't have to, and that can often be where the fun is.

    SM is thus far the only series the really make drastic alterations in Ash's course prior to the league, while XY was also the first one to really make the rival who beats him have some sort of story integration. Besides maybe the Kanto league, which was arguably a case of reality ensuing, none of the losses really had a point except 'because the plot says so'. Sure we got a few good battles out of it each time, but not enough to really give it appeal for six series.

    It should not have taken this long just to make basic light on how the formula plays out.
  9. Leonhart

    Leonhart Disney fanatic

    I tend to agree that Satoshi's wins mean very little since he doesn't exactly achieve much even when he does defeat strong opponents. If he were to win a League that actually matters, I'd be surprised and glad, yet I wouldn't expect his journey to end. He'd just keep finding new places to visit.
  10. Zoruagible

    Zoruagible Lover of underrated characters

    Winning a League doesn't have to be the end for him.
    They could let Ash go on to face the Elite Four member and lose against the very first one, proving he's not ready and sending him to another region to train some more with Ash slowly progressing through the Elite Four before eventually getting to face a Champion. Ash losing to an Elite Four member or Champion would be perfectly acceptable. I'd much prefer seeing that rather than Ash digressing in League rank yet again, losing in the semi or quarter finals instead of the actual finals.

    Hell it'd be nice seeing Ash face Elite Four members, then we wouldn't have to go through the annoying business of half them appearing while the other two get ignored. Still pissed we never got Grimsley, and I don't have much hope on him appearing in SM even though I'd love that.
  11. Redstar45

    Redstar45 The Fire type master !

    That i would like hearing from Pokemon anime universe fan !
  12. AznKei

    AznKei Getting ready for Pump It Up XX.

    Didn't Ash-Greninja almost defeated the Champion Diantha's Mega Gardevoir in XY? Didn't Alain's Mega Charizard X defeated the Elite Four member Malva's Mega Houndoom, despite the 10 consecutives battles that Alain had to go through? And I always thought that the outcome of the Kalos League is the producers/writers way to say "Ash is going to stay as a loser, so we can keep him as a mascot forever".
  13. Leonhart

    Leonhart Disney fanatic

    I've never seen eye-to-eye with that assessment that many fans have made, because it sounds like a hyperbole. Carnet's Sirnight was overpowered by Gekkouga for a few seconds sure, yet Sirnight still had the strength to fight against the Rocket-dan right after Gekkouga passed out. So since Sirnight still had some stamina left, I find it unlikely that she was on the brink of losing to Gekkouga had there been no interruption.
  14. Jeal

    Jeal Well-Known Member

    Really? It's obvious that Greninja would defeat Gardevoir. Greninja was definitely stronger and faster. Cut broke Reflect and Water Shuriken overpowered Shadow Ball. Gardevoir defeated Team Rocket, yeah, but lose all energy after two attacks.
    LilligantLewis likes this.
  15. Twilight-Kun

    Twilight-Kun Pokemon World Champion

    Let Ash win a League and then make a Filler season based around the Champion Circuit so you can kill time while making a new game and region for Ash to journey to after losing to an Elite Four/Champion

    Boom, problem solved
    LilligantLewis and KenzeyEevee like this.
  16. DatsRight

    DatsRight Well-Known Member

    I think SM has at least got the right idea of making Ash's actual personality as much the draw appeal to his character than his goal he can never accomplish. When you make a character who spends most of the time talking about how he's gonna be a Pokemon master of course he will seem empty if he doesn't get a smidgeon closer to doing so.

    I know some aren't particularly happy about said personality essentially being the Tigger of the Pokemon universe, but hey, if Tigger loses at things, does the audience claim it ruins his character? XD
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2018
    FlygontheRavager likes this.

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