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If Ash doesn’t win

Panky..

Discord: Panky..#9281
Not really. Do you think it would be good story-telling with Ash winning 3 matches in a row? That is boring. If it was round-robin, Ash could become 2nd in his bracket. Win some, lose some. The important thing is you learned something from your losses. That is extra character development. Bad writing is not learning anything because you keep winning.
It depends on how those 3 wins are executed. If they're done well with narrative pay-offs to past plot threads (Alain and Cynthia), as well as a decent set-up for the future with regards to the current one (Leon), then it's good story-telling. Just throwing those away for some cheap 'unpredictability' is not.

He's already lost more than enough, and learned from it all. There's no character development to be had from Ash from simple 'finale' losses, that would be just redundant and pointless. What he can learn from is experiencing new heights, and the recent episode is proof of that. In it, he finally took up the region's Champion status and not because he wants it but because the people want him to have it and are rooting for him.

If Ash loses in the M8, he won't learn anything new. He'll just go around doing the same loop as before. @Shadao has made a post about this part on which he can elaborate since I'm too sleepy to find his comment.
 

Shadao

Aim to be a Pokémon Master
Not really. Do you think it would be good story-telling with Ash winning 3 matches in a row? That is boring. If it was round-robin, Ash could become 2nd in his bracket. Win some, lose some. The important thing is you learned something from your losses. That is extra character development. Bad writing is not learning anything because you keep winning.

Is it good storytelling if Ash lost to a guy with Legendaries in the League, and he learned absolutely nothing because this kind of trainer was never used again?

And likewise, are you saying that Ash didn't learn anything during the Royal Battle in the latest episode? His expressions said it all. He has never known what it's like to be a Champion. What it's like to be at the top of the game, with all of your rivals targeting you only because you're the champion... and then said rivals fight each other to be the only person to beat you. And then you hear everyone the stadium cheering for you, shouting "CHAMPION! CHAMPION! CHAMPION!"

The pressure of expectations because you are their champion and represent Alola on the grand stage of the world. This is no longer just Ash being a random competitor in a League. He has a region to live up to.

Ash is rather cool with losing. To him, it's no big deal since there's always next time and honestly, a lot of the Ash loses then goes through depression arc only to bounce back at the end is rather old and tiresome. We all know he'll be back to normal in no time, especially if he sees a new strategy. But we never see him dealing with the drawbacks of winning, such as the fact that every win he makes will put pressure on him since he's not simply proving himself to be the best, but rather proving that the Alola region matters despite being new in the Pokémon League world.

Never do subversions for the sake of subversion. Every story has to have a logical lead up, even if the outcome is predictable. Storytelling is appealing because it tells you something about the characters as people. If I want random twists, I'll just play Mad Libs.
 
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Kazuniya

read/watch dungeon meshi
Game of Thrones (the show) is a very good example of writers trying to subvert their audience's expectations and completely failing.
You know, how the story essentially built up Jon Snow as the main guy to oppose the Night King, leader of White Walkers, but in the big climactic battle of the final season, the writers thought "ohh, umm, Jon Snow killing him would be too predictable, let's surprise the fans!" and they picked Arya as the one to kill him while Jon Snow just stood around and screamed in a dragon's face. What a load of subverted bull that was. In general the show became a mess by the final season, but the fact they were able to screw up even that one simple thing is mindblowing. All because they didn't want to be "too predictable".

Or how the showrunners of Westworld actually rewrote scripts for S2 because the community was able to connect the clues dropped by the show and make some excellent theories for Season 1, and correctly guess what was happening before the official reveal. This isn't a bad thing at all, but the showrunners didn't like it for some reason, and wanted to outsmart their audience so they just rewrote it to be convoluted, just so the audience couldn't figure it out. It's such a confusing thing, the need to shock and surprise people with unexpected twists, even when those twists make no sense storywise.
 
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Lord Godwin

The Lord of Darkness
What we are missing from all Leagues so far but which would be nice to be introduced here would be a battle for the 3rd place.
Sad Alola didn't have one as Kiawe vs Guzma would've been a nice fight.

A battle for 3rd spot in M8 would be fun.
 

GLTSRY

Sorry not sorry for my smugness
What we are missing from all Leagues so far but which would be nice to be introduced here would be a battle for the 3rd place.
Sad Alola didn't have one as Kiawe vs Guzma would've been a nice fight.

A battle for 3rd spot in M8 would be fun.
Eh. On one hand you’re right, it would open up new possibilities for potential match-ups. On the other hand, and this is the problem with 3rd place matches IRL too: it simply lacks any tension. There are no consequences if you win or lose.
 

Lord Godwin

The Lord of Darkness
Eh. On one hand you’re right, it would open up new possibilities for potential match-ups. On the other hand, and this is the problem with 3rd place matches IRL too: it simply lacks any tension. There are no consequences if you win or lose.
Yes and no. If you do it just before the finals it might have some tensions.

But, of course, they are not as much fun as the finals.

On the other hand, Ash getting 3rd in Sinnoh League would sound nicer than being no 4:)
 

GLTSRY

Sorry not sorry for my smugness
Yes and no. If you do it just before the finals it might have some tensions.

But, of course, they are not as much fun as the finals.

On the other hand, Ash getting 3rd in Sinnoh League would sound nicer than being no 4:)
Maybe it’s just my personal bias from my active days as an athlete, but I always preferred “semi-finalist“ instead of third/fourth. After losing in the SF, I really just want to go home instead of having a pointless match to decide who sucks less haha :D
 

bichyungu

Active Member
Is it good storytelling if Ash lost to a guy with Legendaries in the League, and he learned absolutely nothing because this kind of trainer was never used again?
Certainly not. But then again, Tobias is the illegal character. Like how its forbidden to use Legendaries in (online) tournaments . Tobias is that. Tobias has probably been banned from competing (since we have never seen him again).

Kazuniya: I never watched GoT. But I did hear about everyone's disappointment at the ending. If you look at it alternatively, maybe the writers were frustrated at how the fans knew what the next step was. So they threw a curveball showing that fans can be wrong. Wrong? Yes. But there is a lesson in that. Expect the unexpected. Always have backup plan. When people are wrong, they become frustrated. But you learn from being wrong (only if you admit it).
Also, just because something does not go your way, does not mean its bad storytelling. Writers can get sick of fans knowing their moves.

Here is a question for all: What do you think becoming the Monarch actually entails? Will Ash have to openly participate in the next WCS (theoretically)? If its a huge responsibility, can a 10 YO handle that? If its compulsory to defend his title, it becomes boring already.
If that were the case, someone not regularly in the anime would be more suitable to win.
 
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DatsRight

Well-Known Member
Is it good storytelling if Ash lost to a guy with Legendaries in the League, and he learned absolutely nothing because this kind of trainer was never used again?

And likewise, are you saying that Ash didn't learn anything during the Royal Battle in the latest episode? His expressions said it all. He has never known what it's like to be a Champion. What it's like to be at the top of the game, with all of your rivals targeting you only because you're the champion... and then said rivals fight each other to be the only person to beat you. And then you hear everyone the stadium cheering for you, shouting "CHAMPION! CHAMPION! CHAMPION!"

The pressure of expectations because you are their champion and represent Alola on the grand stage of the world. This is no longer just Ash being a random competitor in a League. He has a region to live up to.

Ash is rather cool with losing. To him, it's no big deal since there's always next and honestly, a lot of the Ash loses then goes through depression arc only to bounce back at the end is rather old and tiresome. We all know he'll be back to normal in no time, especially if he sees a new strategy. But we never see him dealing with the drawbacks of winning, such as the fact that every win he makes will put pressure on him since he's not simply proving himself to be the best, but rather proving that the Alola region matters despite being new in the Pokémon League world.

Never do subversions for the sake of subversion. Every story has to have a logical lead up, even if the outcome is predictable. Storytelling is appealing because it tells you something about the characters as people. If I want random twists, I'll just play Mad Libs.
I mean I suppose Tobias worked okay in terms of foreshadowing, legendaries and mythicals slowly became accessable from that point on.

But yeah I get your angle there. Really variation is often needed to make your character rounded. It's like how say, Bugs Bunny has a clear formula where he nearly always wins, but every now and then they have him lose miserably to show a new more vulnerable side of him.

It's why I like Jessie's performance arc as well, it was TRio slowly managing to climb the ladder for once and winning things, but like you said, also looking into how someone like Jessie, who is forever arrogant in the face of failure, actually handles victory for once. I think if they had just kept their whole run like it was in AG it would have been FAR more monotonous, and even depressing to watch.

It's why I think the show should try more new dynamic things with the mainstays more often. I think they got the point with Ash at least, even if he's still often a 'safe' character in handling, I do think they at least use a lot of the new formula breaks to get a bit more personality from him.
 

SerGoldenhandtheJust

Deluded Dreamer
Game of Thrones (the show) is a very good example of writers trying to subvert their audience's expectations and completely failing.
You know, how the story essentially built up Jon Snow as the main guy to oppose the Night King, leader of White Walkers, but in the big climactic battle of the final season, the writers thought "ohh, umm, Jon Snow killing him would be too predictable, let's surprise the fans!" and they picked Arya as the one to kill him while Jon Snow just stood around and screamed in a dragon's face. What a load of subverted bull that was. In general the show became a mess by the final season, but the fact they were able to screw up even that one simple thing is mindblowing. All because they didn't want to be "too predictable".

Or how the showrunners of Westworld actually rewrote scripts for S2 because the community was able to connect the clues dropped by the show and make some excellent theories for Season 1, and correctly guess what was happening before the official reveal. This isn't a bad thing at all, but the showrunners didn't like it for some reason, and wanted to outsmart their audience so they just rewrote it to be convoluted, just so the audience couldn't figure it out. It's such a confusing thing, the need to shock and surprise people with unexpected twists, even when those twists make no sense storywise.
Ooh this is the first time im hearing that about Westworld S2
Can you share me the links for it? Would love hearing about it more considering I actually liked Westworld S2, S3 can go to the trash though

Also as for GoT, I do think it makes good sense for Arya to take down The Night King still because her whole arc was learning to and being capable of overcoming death, which the Night King represented. Jon was still pivotal, he set up the whole armies, United all the people fighting to protect Winterfell and he's the reason Arya came to Winterfell in the first place. I actually think subverting Jon killing NK with Arya was a great choice, what was terrible though was that the NK just .....died like that. No backstory, no complexity, the white Walker plotline felt like such a big waste
 

Kazuniya

read/watch dungeon meshi
Ooh this is the first time im hearing that about Westworld S2
Can you share me the links for it? Would love hearing about it more considering I actually liked Westworld S2, S3 can go to the trash though
Sure thing.
But during the Q&A panel, Nolan also revealed that Reddit users had "already figured out" a major twist for the show's second season, forcing the writers to change what they had planned.

"Reddit has already figured out the third episode twist," said Nolan. "So, we're changing that right now.

"It's annoying sometimes when people guess the twists and then blog about it, but the engagement is gratifying, on one level, because if someone guesses your twist, it means you've done an adequate job [of structuring the series]."

While Nolan was the first to applaud the fans' pretty spot-on theories, he did ask people to stop guessing twists so Westworld can get back on screens as soon as possible.

"You can't complain when people are that engaged," he added. "It's very gratifying — but stop doing it, please."
This is all so funny to me.
 

BobbbidyBob

Well-Known Member
I honestly think Ash will beat Leon. Leon will be old news with Gen 9 approaching and honestly the point is for Leon's character to realize he can still be beaten. After the champions chant from the Alola ep I can see him winning.
This ^
Also I’m gonna be mad if Ash doesn’t win, I don’t find the PWC that interesting to stand it for another 3 years, I hope Ash wins so he can finally progress and become the next Tobias. Plus I’m hoping for his birthday episode too next season
 
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