If God exists do we have free will?

[Dr. Ste]

Assuming God knows us well enough as you say, Dr Ste, it doesn't affect much whether we have free will or not, God might know what you're doing and thinking, but does that necessarily mean that it's controlled by something other than us? I personally don't think so.

I think that if there is set and unbreakable knowledge of the future, then it can't change -> no free will. That's not what I'm saying. What I said above is that you can't hide from God or deceive Him in any aspect. These scriptures are talking about the present, or at least about set choices. I have chosen, and God knows what I have chosen. I did not speak about what I hypothetically may choose. That's not set. Assuming I am right.

 

[GhostAnime]

So if you put those three verses together, what does it say about God's knowledge in general?

 

[Dr. Ste]

I am thinking something and God knows what I'm thinking.
I am doing something and God knows what I'm doing. God knows my personality and my behaviour.
I want to say, claim, do something. And God knows about it.

My point is, all these refer to the present. Like, you can't hide anything from God.

 

[GhostAnime]

(Spoken to God...) For You created my inmost being. You knit me together in my mother's womb... Your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in Your book before one of them came to be. Ps 139.13, 139.16

Known to God from eternity are all His works. (Acts 15.18

these are interesting as well.

 

[GhostAnime]

(Spoken to God...) For You created my inmost being. You knit me together in my mother's womb... Your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in Your book before one of them came to be. Ps 139.13, 139.16

Known to God from eternity are all His works. (Acts 15.18

these are interesting as well.

 

[Hakajin]

I pretty much think it is, but I think it's limited. I think we have the free will to make choices within our own genetics and experiences. I believe the future is pre-existing, or that there are different possible futures that co-exist, but I don't think God determines that. Well, He may, under a sort chain reaction (God created us knowing what choices we would make), but as long as He's not controlling those choices, free will is still possible. I have my doubts sometimes as to whether it's possible at all, but... I know it's impossible in a completely materialist world, where we'd only be the sum of our genes and experiences. Then you get to determinism, and... well, that'd take some more explaining.

 

[BlitzBlast]

I think we have the free will to determine whether or not God exists.

 

[Dr. Ste]

For You created my inmost being. You knit me together in my mother's womb...

Indirectly, through creating the events that lead to humanity. Figuratively. Don't think like God has invisible hands or something that put the world, or life together.

Your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in Your book before one of them came to be.

God can see natural events or events caused by Him. He may be able to create events, challenges for us ("days ordained for me"), to check us maybe.

The book... it's not the Bible, unless it means the Revelation. It may mean the "book of life" and you'll find that people can get written there or erased from there.

Known to God from eternity are all His works.

People's works can be independent.

 

[GhostAnime]

People's works can be independent.

Independent doesn't refute the 'known' part.

The book... it's not the Bible, unless it means the Revelation. It may mean the "book of life" and you'll find that people can get written there or erased from there.

it's more likely this book is his vision, isn't it? if he can see their uninformed body also, that would mean he sees before it happens.

 

[Dr. Ste]

Independent doesn't refute the 'known' part.

It does, because if they are known, they are dependent. His works=God's works.

it's more likely this book is his vision, isn't it? if he can see their uninformed body also, that would mean he sees before it happens.

Now you're asking me to give an interpretation to a vague part of the mythological old testament that is both 100% definite to be the correct one, and divinely inspired. I'll try anyway. Citation needed...

The days that a person may live (as a matter of quality) are not a matter of their mental choices. Physical events come upon you, uncontrolled by you. Also, there is no mention of the mental choices that the future person that the unformed baby will turn into will take. They are not dependent entirelt on the body.

 

[Validus]

My theory is thus:

1)If God knows everything, he knows the future.

Well, thats sound logic, I agree. it woudn't make sence otherwise.

2)Knowing the future means he knows exactly which choices we will make.

well of course that ties in with point number one.

3)If he knows this, then we don't actually have a choice in any matter. What we will do is written as destiny.

This is where i start to disagree. just because God knew what we were going to do does mean he made the choice for us. Knowing what someone will do with their given choice isn't the same as influancing or making it for them.

4)Despite this, I still can look at two choices and choose the one I want.

The question is: Is this free will? If this is all written down as some master plan, am I really making the decisions?

Yes you are, we all are making our choices. basicly God's 'plan' has to work with and around the decsions we make... ultimately we just make his job harder, even though he knows.

I personally believe this is not free will, as my path has already been laid out for me, and I am unable to actually choose a path to follow, despite the illusion that I can.

the only illusion is destiny. We as humans can make pretty much anything we want happen. We just have to make the choices, and because God and see were we will make the bad ones he can place another in our path and "hope" we make the right one.

(hope is in quotations because since he's all knowing he can't truly hope. thats a 'power' or luxury afforded to those here on earth... but thats another topic al'together)

 

[Jazzy]

Well, thats sound logic, I agree. it woudn't make sence otherwise.



well of course that ties in with point number one.



This is where i start to disagree. just because God knew what we were going to do does mean he made the choice for us. Knowing what someone will do with their given choice isn't the same as influancing or making it for them.

I know. However, if God can tell the future, that means he can tell exactly which decisions we make, so the future is already set.

Yes you are, we all are making our choices. basicly God's 'plan' has to work with and around the decsions we make... ultimately we just make his job harder, even though he knows.



the only illusion is destiny. We as humans can make pretty much anything we want happen. We just have to make the choices, and because God and see were we will make the bad ones he can place another in our path and "hope" we make the right one.

However, if God knows exactly which path we will take, then that means destiny is rather likely.

(hope is in quotations because since he's all knowing he can't truly hope. thats a 'power' or luxury afforded to those here on earth... but thats another topic al'together)

My Comments Are In Bold

 

[Validus]

Well i suppose to a certain degree the future is set, but We (humans) are the ones who set it. Just because God can see where our choices will lead us doesn't mean we didn't really make them. I think it just gets intimidating to think that we are gonna make mistakes or that other people will have greater success that ourselves because of our different choices. It's easier to say "oh it was destiny, so it's not my fault"

 

[sockyskarmie]

The very basis of Christianity is built upon the fact that we all have free will, a concience that tells right from wrong. We can choose to sin, etc.
I have thought about this aswell, but have concluded that:

Yes, God knows what will happen, but we do not. This feeling that someone in the universe knows what will happen makes us feel like the future has already happened, been decided- but in reality, from our own point of views, we can change the future. God can see the total ending of our decisions.

According to Christianity, God is not cruel or harsh... he just cannot be with anything imperfect. He loves what he made and wants to be with it forever without controlling it. If God really did control will, why wouldn't he just make every human sinless?

 

[Shishioken]

More like some crackpot went and conjured up an overrated, ancient book of mistruths that deny any shred of logic, and has somehow managed to go and subdue millions of hopeless, uneducated hicks who're willing to try and grab anyone's hands to delude themselves into escaping their misery.

Newsflash: If god made everything imperfect as you've said... for one, how on Earth are all the offsprings (and their offsprings in turn) of Adam and Eve's children who had no choice but to procreate with their kin (since they were the only ones around), able to escape birth defects for about seven hundred generations (according to the book, which again denounces piles of evidence that we've found in the contrary, such as... uh, bones of certain prehistoric reptile creatures whose presence had never been even hinted by the Bible, which any hard-pressed moron could figure out that they'd been there for a good dozens of millions of years) while all other forms of incest have resulted in what we'd rather not talk about?

In short: We smell a strong odor of B. U. L. L. S .H. I. T. nearby, Major!

Edit: Yeah, I knew that this topic isn't for refuting the existence of god or anything, but it'd just be so damn humorous to see a reaction out of the Christinized folks. My bad. But hey, it's not like we're left to choose to die or believe in some vague deity who can't even have someone refrain from doubting his mere presence and has to have a billion shrines with ***gier versions of Buddhist priests try to spread the word!

 

[sockyskarmie]

More like some crackpot went and conjured up an overrated, ancient book of mistruths that deny any shred of logic, and has somehow managed to go and subdue millions of hopeless, uneducated hicks who're willing to try and grab anyone's hands to delude themselves into escaping their misery.

Newsflash: If god made everything imperfect as you've said... for one, how on Earth are all the offsprings (and their offsprings in turn) of Adam and Eve's children who had no choice but to procreate with their kin (since they were the only ones around), able to escape birth defects for about seven hundred generations (according to the book, which again denounces piles of evidence that we've found in the contrary, such as... uh, bones of certain prehistoric reptile creatures whose presence had never been even hinted by the Bible, which any hard-pressed moron could figure out that they'd been there for a good dozens of millions of years) while all other forms of incest have resulted in what we'd rather not talk about?

In short: We smell a strong odor of B. U. L. L. S .H. I. T. nearby, Major!

read the first post. this is not a fight about if God exists or not.

But since this will probably be labeled as spam, I might as well say something.

So, you're saying an idiot could look at a bone and tell it's age?
The carbon-14 system of dating a dinosaur bone's age proves that dinosaur bones are actually a few thousand years old.

EDIT:
funny.

 

[Shishioken]

It's not the carbon-dating that matters, as level of decomposure can vary based on location and circumstance, kiddy. It's the sheer depth in which you'd have to dig through to actually gather those bones in the first place, and when they do, it shows that they've been there a lot longer than you'd be inclined to believe (thousands of volcano eruptions hardening enough to prove as land useful for food harvest over and over won't happen in a week~); even if it weren't, there's no denying that their existence was never even alluded to by the bible, and as far as they're concerned, those were either killed during a massive flood and would be by no means in as good a condition as they are (not to mention sunken a lot deeper than even what we've found), or they wouldn't be of such diverse species' since (according to them) evolution doesn't happen (a notion which by itself causes paradox, but let's not get into that), and only two of each "kind" were spared or some stupid shit.

You're not going to try and touch up on the other points, though, not that I'd even need to go and post rebuttals to such weak comebacks to begin with?

Again, I didn't mean to go and violate the topic rules (okay, I did so on purpose, but if you'd read my edit you'd have noticed that ), just... humoring myself is all. Meh, I'm done here, continue.

 

[sockyskarmie]

It's not the carbon-dating that matters, as level of decomposure can vary based on location and circumstance, kiddy. It's the sheer depth in which you'd have to dig through to actually gather those bones in the first place, and when they do, it shows that they've been there a lot longer than you'd be inclined to believe (thousands of volcano eruptions hardening enough to prove as land useful for food harvest over and over won't happen in a week~); even if it weren't, there's no denying that their existence was never even alluded to by the bible, and as far as they're concerned, those were either killed during a massive flood and would be by no means in as good a condition as they are (not to mention sunken a lot deeper than even what we've found), or they wouldn't be of such diverse species' since (according to them) evolution doesn't happen (a notion which by itself causes paradox, but let's not get into that), and only two of each "kind" were spared or some stupid shit.

You're not going to try and touch up on the other points, though, not that I'd even need to go and post rebuttals to such weak comebacks to begin with?

Again, I didn't mean to go and violate the topic rules (okay, I did so on purpose, but if you'd read my edit you'd have noticed that ), just... humoring myself is all. Meh, I'm done here, continue.

I just slapped something down to avoid spamming.
The bible actually does refer to dinosaurs- in the book of Job, it refers to the Bohemoth:
"Look at the behemoth, which I made along with you and which feed on grass like an ox. What strength he has in his loins, what power in the muscles of his belly! His tail sways like a cedar; the sinews of his thighs are close-knit. His bones are tubes of bronze, his limbs like rods of iron. He ranks first among the works of God…"
-Job 40:15-19 (NIV)

 

[ResidentEcruteak]

The very basis of Christianity is built upon the fact that we all have free will, a concience that tells right from wrong. We can choose to sin, etc.

In christianity, the existance of free will would make more sense, but it's hardly the "basis of christianity"...

 

[Crumpet]

I'm in a christian private school and what I've been taught so far... I can't do anything fun, I'm restricted to what I do with my girlfriend which means if I do (censored) then I'm going straight to hell. D: