If the dub change didn't happen, do you think the show would have had higher ratings?

[PokemonNation2000]

Ratings had been in decline long before the switch happened. Fan comments are meaningless if they don't have nielsen boxes and are outside of the target demographic (ages 6 - 12). 99% of those fans probably aren't in that demographic. There, your argument is dead.

You aren't accounting for the fact that eventually the amount of fans alienated from the franchise itself are eventually going to outweigh those in the target demographic who will join the series (it looks like we're getting pretty close to that in the BW series, whether because of the VA switch (seems to be the greatest reason for it and why so many will not continue on watching), character departures (second most, in the BW series most hate Brock and Dawn are replaced with Iris and Cilan who they deem bland and forgettable-- I myself prefer Iris and Cilan-- especially since Brock's demolition in DP), or the reboot the anime itself has undergone in Unova)). Also, I believe it's Nielsen Ratings, not Nielsen Boxes. Either way, it had an adverse affect. So many fans gave up on the dub thanks to it, and have lost faith in Pokemon due to it. Whatever you say, though. There's always going to be another half of the fanbase you fail to take into account, one that has been constantly ignored because the company at the helm seeks to exploit children the way it does. Really sad what big business monopolies can do with enough resources and power. I'm just sad Pokemon is the victim of it- the one thing I thought would never be affected by such a thing.

 

[Vernikova]

You aren't accounting for the fact that eventually the amount of fans alienated from the franchise itself are eventually going to outweigh those in the target demographic who will join the series

The fans outside of the demographic become meaningless once they exit. This would be the case with or without those voice actors and is ultimately an obvious staement that doesn't change anything I've said. Even if those fans stayed, they would be meaningless. That's why ratings are reported as k6-11 and stuff.

Also, I believe it's Nielsen Ratings, not Nielsen Boxes.

People who get counted in the ratings have nielsen boxes in their homes.That's how they're counted in the first place.

There's always going to be another half of the fanbase you fail to take into account, one that has been constantly ignored because the company at the helm seeks to exploit children the way it does.

Because the company runs a franchise aimed at children. Anyone on the outside of the demographic follows it on their own accord.

 

[PokemonNation2000]

The fans outside of the demographic become meaningless once they exit. This would be the case with or without those voice actors and is ultimately an obvious staement that doesn't change anything I've said. Even if those fans stayed, they would be meaningless. That's why ratings are reported as k6-11 and stuff.

People who get counted in the ratings have nielsen boxes in their homes.That's how they're counted in the first place.

Because the company runs a franchise aimed at children. Anyone on the outside of the demographic follows it on their own accord.

@1) Well that's true regarding the ratings. Still, there are many people outside the target demographic who do indeed watch the anime, whether they like it or not. That portion is growing large in number, and that's to be expected over 15 years. But even moreso since the recasting of all the voices back in Season 9.

@2) Yes, true, I'm saying the Nielsen ratings FOR said shows come from the Nielsen Boxes that measure said ratings itself.

@3) Well sadly on this one eventually the target demographic will be outweighed by the alienated portion of the fanbase should the current dub go on as it is. That's something I can definitely see happening even right now. Most comments on episodes are now dubwars, and people are in constant disagreement and sad about the state of affairs the Pokemon dub is in right now. It's not just me, for example, who is upset about the whole switch. Actually, a majority of fans still aren't satisfied with the way the dub is run now. Most just can't stand it and have quit altogether.

 

[Vernikova]

@1) Well that's true regarding the ratings. Still, there are many people outside the target demographic who do indeed watch the anime, whether they like it or not. That portion is growing large in number, and that's to be expected over 15 years. But even moreso since the recasting of all the voices back in Season 9.

There have always been many but they don't account for much in the ratings.

@3) Well sadly on this one eventually the target demographic will be outweighed by the alienated portion of the fanbase should the current dub go on as it is. That's something I can definitely see happening even right now. Most comments on episodes are now dubwars, and people are in constant disagreement and sad about the state of affairs the Pokemon dub is in right now. It's not just me, for example, who is upset about the whole switch. Actually, a majority of fans still aren't satisfied with the way the dub is run now. Most just can't stand it and have quit altogether.

And it wouldn't matter if it did or not. Source that shows a "majority" of fans don't like it or stop repeating it. Actually, do you have any info on this "target demographic to be outweighed" business. If not then stop talking about it since you have no info backing this up and it's meaningless without proof.

 

[PokemonNation2000]

There have always been many but they don't account for much in the ratings.



And it wouldn't matter if it did or not. Source that shows a "majority" of fans don't like it or stop repeating it. Actually, do you have any info on this "target demographic to be outweighed" business. If not then stop talking about it since you have no info backing this up and it's meaningless without proof.

Well I mean it's LOOKING that way, of course. I don't see how I can find legitimate proof for that claim, though. You win the battle, but not the war! JK. But I will say many sources do show a majority of fans favor when 4Kids did have the dub though (yep, irony, most 4Kids haters even prefer it when they had the dub). A poll I took on Serebii does show that trend that, almost all polls on the Internet do whether on Bulbagarden Forums, BTVA, Serebii forums (here), etc. Good discussion at any rate, though. It helps clear some things up though.

 

[Vernikova]

Well I mean it's LOOKING that way, of course. I don't see how I can find legitimate proof for that claim, though. You win!

Looks can be deceiving but I'll take it. :snowlax:

 

[PokemonNation2000]

Looks can be deceiving but I'll take it. :snowlax:

ROFL @Snorlax. I'll take your word for it, then.

 

[LizardonX]

I think if the writing improves and they dump the cute market fodder on the girl/personal chef and give Ash badass battle pokemon, like in DP but more of them, along with no TR more training and a less filler heavy plot the ratings would go straight back up. But as a certain user named vodor likes to say

writers are idiot! they can't write good to save their sorry lives!

 

[PokemonNation2000]

I think if the writing improves and they dump the cute market fodder on the girl/personal chef and give Ash badass battle pokemon, like in DP but more of them, along with no TR more training and a less filler heavy plot the ratings would go straight back up. But as a certain user named vodor likes to say

writers are idiot! they can't write good to save their sorry lives!

That's probably one of the worst things about BW in all honesty: the writing.

 

[CyberCubed]

I'll say this again, Best Wishes felt like the writers tried to combine Kanto and DP together to make a saga that mixes aspects of both...and it kinda wound up failing at that.

I like the BW trio and Cilan is a much better character at replacing Brock than Tracey was, but the arc itself doesn't come together as a whole.

 

[PokemonNation2000]

I'll say this again, Best Wishes felt like the writers tried to combine Kanto and DP together to make a saga that mixes aspects of both...and it kinda wound up failing at that.

I like the BW trio and Cilan is a much better character at replacing Brock than Tracey was, but the arc itself doesn't come together as a whole.

^This, pretty much.^

 

[pokemon fan 132]

Its quite obvious how ratings dropped over the years for several reasons, with several factors and negatively received changes writers or producers made becoming directly responsible for gradual decline in show popularity.

From fad dying out during mid of second generation, people growing tired of same overused formula, change of characters(biggest controversy caused Misty) to switch to different network cable and of course infamous switch of dub VAs. In fact change of voice actors caused so much complaining that some pokemon sites had to put ban on it altogether for years.

The fans outside of the demographic become meaningless once they exit. This would be the case with or without those voice actors and is ultimately an obvious staement that doesn't change anything I've said. Even if those fans stayed, they would be meaningless. That's why ratings are reported as k6-11 and stuff.

While its true in essence how older fans don't matter, its apparent how over the years number of target demographic is in constant decline with empty places which older viewers leave behind themselves not being filled up at same speed like they once used to be.
Its no secret that ratings in each passing saga are generally lower with unpopular decisions being one among several reasons responsible for that.

I also wouldn't ignore possibility that switch of voice actors may have caused drop in ratings among target demographic too becoming repulsed by drastic amendment, since change happened around BF with new generations already following show with older voice actors for 3 years becoming used to them.

Also for record older viewers may be irrelevant,but in show early days they counted for something if Takeshi Shudo blogs were anything to go by with his original intention being to write pokemon as family TV show which is aimed for all generations. Granted that idea got scrapped, but whether they matter or not i know that large portion of older viewers still watch this show , buy pokemon products or games contributing to ratings and sales.

 

[Vernikova]

While its true in essence how older fans don't matter, its apparent how over the years number of target demographic is in constant decline . . . Its no secret that ratings in each passing saga are generally lower with unpopular decisions being one among several reasons responsible for that.

It's been pretty consistent on Cartoon Network.

I also wouldn't ignore possibility that switch of voice actors may have caused drop in ratings among target demographic too becoming repulsed by drastic amendment, since change happened around BF with new generations already following show with older voice actors for 3 years becoming used to them.

Evidence or stop doing your best talking head impression.

Granted that idea got scrapped, but whether they matter or not i know that large portion of older viewers still watch this show , buy pokemon products or games contributing to ratings and sales.

1) We're discussing the anime. 2) Network's care about their target audience and nothing else. Shows that have been successful with groups outside of a channel's demographic have been canceled because of it.

 

[Bluelatios*]

Frankly, its pretty silly to be arguing about how the "target demographic/market"is that much more important. Lets say you have a literal target, say a dartboard, a dart, and a cannonball. Which one is capable of hitting a larger area? Both can hit the bulls-eye, but the cannonball will take a bigger chunk of the target with it. A company can appeal to their target market but they can go beyond that and prosper even more.

Who is The Pokemon Company? They aren't just average producers, they are one of the top producers of entertainment in the world. They aren't just part of the market, they drive the market. They use cannonballs, not darts. A target market is merely an expectation subject to change. TPC has the ability to not only meet expectations, but to exceed them. So you tell me, what possible reason do they have to care only for that little bulls-eye they know they're going to hit? To a truly successful business, every person loyal to their product, whether expected or not, is valuable to them.

Now that's been established, what are ratings? Ratings are reflective of the viewing habits of people who use the Nielsen devices. These viewers are a random pool of people out of the total that watch tv and includes all demographics. The popularity of a program is affected by factors such as efficiency of marketing, loyalty of the viewers, and word of mouth. I'm sure many of us experienced a great deal of negative word of mouth passing due to the events of 2006. Therefore its logical to reason that ratings did indeed drop as a reflection of those events.

 

[PokemonNation2000]

Frankly, its pretty silly to be arguing about how the "target demographic/market"is that much more important. Lets say you have a literal target, say a dartboard, a dart, and a cannonball. Which one is capable of hitting a larger area? Both can hit the bulls-eye, but the cannonball will take a bigger chunk of the target with it. A company can appeal to their target market but they can go beyond that and prosper even more.

Who is The Pokemon Company? They aren't just average producers, they are one of the top producers of entertainment in the world. They aren't just part of the market, they drive the market. They use cannonballs, not darts. A target market is merely an expectation subject to change. TPC has the ability to not only meet expectations, but to exceed them. So you tell me, what possible reason do they have to care only for that little bulls-eye they know they're going to hit? To a truly successful business, every person loyal to their product, whether expected or not, is valuable to them.

Now that's been established, what are ratings? Ratings are reflective of the viewing habits of people who use the Nielsen devices. These viewers are a random pool of people out of the total that watch tv and includes all demographics. The popularity of a program is affected by factors such as efficiency of marketing, loyalty of the viewers, and word of mouth. I'm sure many of us experienced a great deal of negative word of mouth passing due to the events of 2006. Therefore its logical to reason that ratings did indeed drop as a reflection of those events.

Well said. They're supposed to be one of the top producers in the world, and they should actually respect every individual who cares about their product, whether in their target demographiic or not. And they just haven't been doing that at all IMHO since 2006. Getting better at it gradually? Sure, yes. Doing what should happen? No.

I mean, obviously I complain a lot about the dub switch (and I know I do get out of hand about it, sure, but I'm pretty one-sided on the issue). But even after seven years, most of the fanbase is still outraged at the switch and is upset (I mean you can just go and look at various comments on episodes on Youtube, Dailymotion, etc and see many complaints have to do with the VA work). And TPCi just neglecting that whole portion of the fanbase (which I may add continues to grow) isn't what they can do to the best of their capability by any means. That's what's disappointing. TPCi CAN make the English dub better, they can definitely do so, they just refuse to do it. It's very disappointing.

On a better note, the efforts of you guys at SOVA has really helped the dub gradually start on the path to recovery. Shame we haven't seen anyone return since BW064 (good that it was Stuart, though). I want to personally thank you guys for all your doing. Really, it's a great thing and I'm so thankful to you guys for at least somehow convincing TPCi to get many additional 4Kids VAs back on the dub as well as Blaustein and Lillis.

Here's to hoping Taylor, Stuart, Birnbaum, and the like eventually get a shot too!

 

[pokemon fan 132]

It's been pretty consistent on Cartoon Network.

If you compare BW ratings with DP, AG and OS you will notice ratings are nowhere near as high like they used to be. In fact some of BW episodes had ratings 2.2 or 3.7 which is generally lowest score ever since pokemon started.

Evidence or stop doing your best talking head impression.

Im not fan of shifting burden to other side. Ratings are best indication which reflects if number of viewers dropped during certain era of pokemon or not. Granted i don't have time to dig up this things, but anyone who is curious to find out can notice for himself change in ratings as series went on.

In business if customers are unsatisfied with product as result of that company will suffer and lose money, Same applies to TV show, if viewers aren't satisfied with current quality or changes this will result in drop of people interest which directly reflects on rating statistic. And in this specific case change of dub voice actors indeed caused several people to quit anime being viewed as unpopular decision among fandom. Amount of complaining, various petitions and flamewars present online at that time reflected best what was general view among fans on that particular change. Talking from my real life experience most people in area where i live hated this change too.

1) We're discussing the anime. 2) Network's care about their target audience and nothing else. Shows that have been successful with groups outside of a channel's demographic have been canceled because of it.

And there are shows which are aimed at both younger and older viewers being successful among both sides of demographic. So i don't really think anime can't be popular if it strives to appeal to wider group of people.

So with no further protraction i agree with everything Bluelatios said.

 

[Caseydia]

That's just an opinion. People can always have faith in their return: that's something you can't take away from us and that is definitely one of the main factors as to why ratings have declined since said event. Whether you choose to believe it or not, that's up to you. That blatant slap in the face to not only so many fans but also the original English dub voice actors will never be ignored, and hopefully the current cast learns what happens when you ignore fans' pleas tirelessly. Maybe at the end of Season 16, perhaps, TPCi will do another recasting? This time, I'll look forward to it! What goes around, comes around. I have a feeling it'll happen someday to them! Maybe this time we may get a VA cast who can *gasp* act, too. I'm looking forward to it!

But having faith in old character voices doesn't mean they'll return. How many old voice actors ever usually come back as their character role? I can't believe some people would beat on the show just becasue of how the voices are from back in the day. And here we have bad writing and aweful battles which need to be addressed more than how Brock's voice in Sinnoh sounded like he was drowing in toilet water.*chuckles*

 

[PokemonNation2000]

If you compare BW ratings with DP, AG and OS you will notice ratings are nowhere near as high like they used to be. In fact some of BW episodes had ratings 2.2 or 3.7 which is generally lowest score ever since pokemon started.



Im not fan of shifting burden to other side. Ratings are best indication which reflects if number of viewers dropped during certain era of pokemon or not. Granted i don't have time to dig up this things, but anyone who is curious to find out can notice for himself change in ratings as series went on.



And there are shows which are aimed at both younger and older viewers being successful among both sides of demographic. So i don't really think anime can't be popular if it strives to appeal to wider group of people.

Also, well said. I couldn't agree more with you.

But having faith in old character voices doesn't mean they'll return. How many old voice actors ever usually come back as their character role? I can't believe some people would beat on the show just becasue of how the voices are from back in the day. And here we have bad writing and aweful battles which need to be addressed more than how Brock's voice in Sinnoh sounded like he was drowing in toilet water.*chuckles*

Well sure, but you can always hope, right? I think a lot of us would be happy if they're allowed on to play anyone at the least.
Only two, sadly, and that is a major disappointment. None of which are characters that appear that often either, which is even sadder...
The voices really defined the characters, and by replacing every single one that was for a main character with well...very shoddy work really ruins those characters. Sure there's bad writing now, *awful* battles at times, but the show could still retain itself and what made it very special to so many fans if the voice work issue is corrected.
It's arguably considered the worst thing to ever happen to the anime. Many people are still upset to date on the issue (obviously you can tell I am, of course).
Toilet water? ROFL.

All that you really need in a decent dub IMHO is voice actors who really seem to get into their characters, like they are those people, traveling around and learning more and more new things in the case of the Pokemon anime for example. But with the current crew, I just see an all-around wooden dub with no real interest beyond the norm of a typical anime, meaning I feel it's not like the characters are themselves anymore. They're just these bland people with the current voices, and you can tell there's no real life or even emotion they bring to the table. It's all extremely forced and that does really detract from the anime's overall quality.

 

[Bluelatios*]

But having faith in old character voices doesn't mean they'll return. How many old voice actors ever usually come back as their character role? I can't believe some people would beat on the show just becasue of how the voices are from back in the day. And here we have bad writing and aweful battles which need to be addressed more than how Brock's voice in Sinnoh sounded like he was drowing in toilet water.*chuckles*

Of course those are all issues that ought to be addressed, but who are we to say which one is the most important? That's up to TPC to determine if its really an issue from their perspective, how to fix it, and when.

 

[PokemonNation2000]

Of course those are all issues that ought to be addressed, but who are we to say which one is the most important? That's up to TPC to determine if its really an issue from their perspective, how to fix it, and when.

It's up to them in the end. We can only hope they choose what most of the fanbase feels is a better way to view the series. Till then, all we can do is hope for the best.