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I'm Back! Nice to See You, Alola! (1126)

RafaSceptile

Well-Known Member
How is it not a constant? A few dozen examples spread out across 1000+ episodes compared to 60+ examples spread out across just 60 episodes or so. How is that not constant? What mathematics are you applying here?
Except those dozen examples are a lot more relevant to the history than those exagerated 60+ examples
 

RafaSceptile

Well-Known Member
And here you come up with a whataboutism attempt, and an attempt to dismiss my point by calling them 'exaggerated'. I'm pretty sure the fact that they constantly repeat these "exaggerated" examples with no showing of changing up screams laziness in the writing process and playing it too safe.

Just a side a note: Most of the relevant ones from those dozen examples happened back when the anime was still finding its footing and in its infancy of sorts. So once again, attempting to bring up those comparisons only devalues your points.

You want to bring up comparisons, you bring up the most recent series, which would be Sun Moon. And JN completely fails in comparison to SM.
Again, the lazy writing is a problem since OS. SM wasn't a battle oriented series so almost all, if not all the captures were befriending the Pokémon. This is something that doesn't happens in previous series with some of the Pokémon.
 

LazySpy

My morals are inconsistent
... Is this actually true that people only started complaining about bad writing with the advent of Journeys? I'm pretty sure that older shows did recieve criticizms for many things. Many fans didn't like Tobias, for example, BW had a lot of backlash, even SM is considered 'divisive' by some.

Yet I keep seeing many state that they're confused since 'bad writing only became a problem with Journeys', is that really true though?
 

RafaSceptile

Well-Known Member
... Is this actually true that people only started complaining about bad writing with the advent of Journeys? I'm pretty sure that older shows did recieve criticizms for many things. Many fans didn't like Tobias, for example, BW had a lot of backlash, even SM is considered 'divisive' by some.

Yet I keep seeing many state that they're confused since 'bad writing only became a problem with Journeys', is that really true though?
No, the problem is with the JN problems that were present in previous seasons as well, for example, a Main character "stealing" screentime and development in an episode dedicated to another main character. People constantly complain about this with Goh, but barely mention anything when in previous series, Ash is the one "stealing" screentime to other characters.
 

Pokegirl Fan~

"She can violate my rights"-Brock
No, the problem is with the JN problems that were present in previous seasons as well, for example, a Main character "stealing" screentime and development in an episode dedicated to another main character. People constantly complain about this with Goh, but barely mention anything when in previous series, Ash is the one "stealing" screentime to other characters.
Like Serena for example :mad:
 
To be fair, things have been getting steadily worse each season starting from BW, with each series making some fatal mistake that the previous one didn't do.

BW:
- Ash's intelligence takes a nosedive, enabling Iris - who changed her attitude from the games to a spoiled brat - to demean him many times despite never learning about his feats that would easily change her treatment of him (or just be a jealous *****).
- The third wheel ends up having no dreams to pursue despite having an established one from the beginning.

XY:
- Ash's intelligence goes back to his old days...except, to REALLY sell the fact he is amazing, everyone else suffers from being less than stellar and at best high-five him or at worst worship the ground he walks on (looking at you, Scottie...and Alain...and Lysandre...list goes on). Even the people stronger than him beat him but can't help commenting they want to be like him.
- Serena - the Poke Girl - has to be half about Ash and half about her dreams, which...took time to actually start.
- No one gives a damn about Clemont or Bonnie, both of which become satellite characters.

SM:
- Ash's quirks take a different nosedive by having him being so uncharacteristically unenthusiastic about traveling and battling in general (in the fact that he absolutely has not much interest in clearing Grand Trials unless the plot suddenly has him decide to do them randomly...remember how he was in early Hoenn?). Also, the universe just plains hates him by injuring him more often.
- Melemele Black Hole Island.
- The very large cast is unable to make any of their dreams stick. No one gives a damn about Mallow. Sophocles and Togedemaru are both Clemont and Bonnie.
- The Tom & Jerry-like episodes taking a huge departure from somewhat more serious fillers.
- Utterly overhauling the entire plot of the games for something much worse.
- Hau apparently not fitting that well in a comedy-centric series. WHY?!

Journeys:
- Ash allegedly gets a bit better.
- Saga repeats the same plot lines as previous sagas. However, it dims much more because of...
- The rather EXTREME wasted execution that has way too many chances to reference the past. What it tries to come up with almost always fails.
- Seemingly grounds Ash and Goh to Vermilion, trying to emulate that Melemele Black Hole Island.
- Viewers are led to believe Ash does a lot of battling...in offscreenland. We don't even see training anymore...and we knew SM Ash did a LOT of training (except didn't fight as much).
- The PWC is a joke because of the above. Only...10,000 or so trainers from across the world participate. Not even a single city has that low a number of citizens.
- SM bothered to show Ash's team a lot. Here? Let's just say Gengar is never alone...but we don't see that. The Melemele Black Hole Island experience at its absolute worst.
- Goh's very inconsistent character who dangerously borders on being a Gary Stu. Is he as good as Ash, much better than Ash, or worse than Ash? The same could be asked about Ash, who has way more experience than Goh but the plot tries to make him fail next to Goh just so Goh can keep up with him...or leave him in the dust.
- Goh's entire existence, actually. He is no Poke Girl (despite the bishonen look...dem eyelashes) or a third wheel. He is a rather huge second male wheel who has more presence than tiny first wheel Ash. Just imagine is Sasuke was more of a lead than Naruto...despite the franchise being called Naruto (and let's be honest, Naruto TOTALLY would let Sasuke be that important).

I honestly think Journeys perhaps is the absolute worst saga of them all only because it creates many more issues...most of them all revolving around Goh, while also repeating many old mistakes. Arceus knows how the next series will be like.

You can plainly see how Journeys clashes with SM in this very episode. Remove Goh from the picture and suddenly this feels completely like an SM episode (with a time-defying baby born from Burnet's time-defying belly).

(...Oh, hey, now I know the joy to let it all out in one post!)
 

LilligantLewis

Bonnie stan
Why did it take a while for Exeggcute to start evolving?

Professor Kukui just always has to mention Blast Burn, doesn't he?

Ash's face looked so weird while he was staring at the Poké Ball waiting for Pyukumuku to be caught

I liked that the WTP reveal theme switched back to the Alola one for this episode

Mossdeep City! Is it still Rocket Roll to him? (AG099)

I don't like how the SM characters look in the Journeys art style tbh.. their heads all look too big

Goh didn't bring any of the right Pokémon for this battle

LOL Z MOVE ALREADY WHAT IS THIS BATTLE

The word rival has been said more times in this episode than it was all of SM

This episodic format sucks. This trip was way too short. No old character got to shine except Kiawe. It was all short moments with Mallow, Sophocles, Lana, Lillie, and the professors. I also didn't realize the professors weren't invited to the party. This SUCKED! However, it was better than Serena not appearing at all in SM. One episode is better than none, but it's still the shortest return ever. Every return before this was multiple episodes.
Also the Kiawe vs Gou "battle" didn't really need to exist all imo. Pokefan really tried to hype us up for this???


All in all 9/10 Almost perfect Episode but the Gou vs Kiawe fake out dampers it a little.
Don't you remember XY13: Froakie VS Sylveon! Big Commotion in the Kindergarten!! and the battle was 1 minute at the beginning?
What about XY&Z32: The Mega Charizard Showdown! X VS Y!! which was two minutes in the background of the episode? because of the FURFROU TRAINER, the biggest waste of space since Cameron? Never expect battles in episode titles to be the main focus of the episode lol. Especially in this case when it WASN'T in the title!
Go sure got alot of attention from the Alola group like the new kid in the block they all like to meet. Wished there's that much amount of interactions with the Kanto group back in SM, outside of Kiawe/Brock & Lana/Misty.
There was only one current companion traveling with Ash this time, instead of 5 last time. It's obvious he would get more focus than the average focus of all 5, but guess what? as you yourself mentioned, two of them got focus last time, that's already more than just one this time.
Yeah, I would've liked Go to catch that Grubbin he was chasing before getting fooled by that Dugtrio.
Maybe after Ash also failed to catch Grubbin in SM001 and SM004, Grubbin is the new Dunsparce
I don't like how they didn't keep consistent VA for the dubs
just a horrendous mistake. I get that it's bicoastal now or whatever but my God, for such an important episode you can't pay the other production company or something! MY GOD
First and foremost, he decided to evolve the Exeggcute without even asking it, without even caring for its feelings. Like what if they didn't want to evolve? He just throwed the Leaf Stone on them.
this was interesting to me, because correct me if I'm wrong, is this the first time a main character has done a stone evolution? I remember that in XY31, Clemont mentioned that he used a Thunder Stone to get his Heliolisk, but we never actually saw it on screen. I mention this because given the anime's arcs about some Pokémon not wanting to evolve and stuff like that, and the only evolutions of main character Pokémon we've seen before all happening "naturally", I've always wondered if it's bc a stone evolution is different, it is deciding to evolve, not automatically evolving, and they would have to write an arc to justify a Pokémon deciding to evolve. However, this didn't happen with Exeggutor, but I still felt like Goh could have asked it. I am not a Goh hater, but this is one time when I agree with you.
Judging by the way Alolan Exeggutor acted after evolving I'd say he was pretty happy about the whole ordeal
He was talking about Kanto Exeggutor
To be fair, things have been getting steadily worse each season starting from BW, with each series making some fatal mistake that the previous one didn't do.

BW:
- Ash's intelligence takes a nosedive, enabling Iris - who changed her attitude from the games to a spoiled brat - to demean him many times despite never learning about his feats that would easily change her treatment of him (or just be a jealous *****).
- The third wheel ends up having no dreams to pursue despite having an established one from the beginning.

XY:
- Ash's intelligence goes back to his old days...except, to REALLY sell the fact he is amazing, everyone else suffers from being less than stellar and at best high-five him or at worst worship the ground he walks on (looking at you, Scottie...and Alain...and Lysandre...list goes on). Even the people stronger than him beat him but can't help commenting they want to be like him.
- Serena - the Poke Girl - has to be half about Ash and half about her dreams, which...took time to actually start.
- No one gives a damn about Clemont or Bonnie, both of which become satellite characters.

SM:
- Ash's quirks take a different nosedive by having him being so uncharacteristically unenthusiastic about traveling and battling in general (in the fact that he absolutely has not much interest in clearing Grand Trials unless the plot suddenly has him decide to do them randomly...remember how he was in early Hoenn?). Also, the universe just plains hates him by injuring him more often.
- Melemele Black Hole Island.
- The very large cast is unable to make any of their dreams stick. No one gives a damn about Mallow. Sophocles and Togedemaru are both Clemont and Bonnie.
- The Tom & Jerry-like episodes taking a huge departure from somewhat more serious fillers.
- Utterly overhauling the entire plot of the games for something much worse.
- Hau apparently not fitting that well in a comedy-centric series. WHY?!

Journeys:
- Ash allegedly gets a bit better.
- Saga repeats the same plot lines as previous sagas. However, it dims much more because of...
- The rather EXTREME wasted execution that has way too many chances to reference the past. What it tries to come up with almost always fails.
- Seemingly grounds Ash and Goh to Vermilion, trying to emulate that Melemele Black Hole Island.
- Viewers are led to believe Ash does a lot of battling...in offscreenland. We don't even see training anymore...and we knew SM Ash did a LOT of training (except didn't fight as much).
- The PWC is a joke because of the above. Only...10,000 or so trainers from across the world participate. Not even a single city has that low a number of citizens.
- SM bothered to show Ash's team a lot. Here? Let's just say Gengar is never alone...but we don't see that. The Melemele Black Hole Island experience at its absolute worst.
- Goh's very inconsistent character who dangerously borders on being a Gary Stu. Is he as good as Ash, much better than Ash, or worse than Ash? The same could be asked about Ash, who has way more experience than Goh but the plot tries to make him fail next to Goh just so Goh can keep up with him...or leave him in the dust.
- Goh's entire existence, actually. He is no Poke Girl (despite the bishonen look...dem eyelashes) or a third wheel. He is a rather huge second male wheel who has more presence than tiny first wheel Ash. Just imagine is Sasuke was more of a lead than Naruto...despite the franchise being called Naruto (and let's be honest, Naruto TOTALLY would let Sasuke be that important).

I honestly think Journeys perhaps is the absolute worst saga of them all only because it creates many more issues...most of them all revolving around Goh, while also repeating many old mistakes. Arceus knows how the next series will be like.

You can plainly see how Journeys clashes with SM in this very episode. Remove Goh from the picture and suddenly this feels completely like an SM episode (with a time-defying baby born from Burnet's time-defying belly).

(...Oh, hey, now I know the joy to let it all out in one post!)
You can say that if you want, and all these are valid opinions, in the sense that the facts that you use to back it up are not false, however, I am totally opposite, I think that since AG, every generation has added something new, structurally, to the anime, that has mostly stayed with the anime since then and for the better.

AG added 2 things: a companion having their own series-long arc, and a serious, non-TR, villain arc
These have stayed with the anime since.

DP's is less concrete than any of the others, but DP added intraseries continuity that wasn't present much in previous series, and that intraseries continuity still exists to this day. Everything seemed very connected. Some characters that seemed like "COTD"s on their first appearance became recurring, mini-arcs, needing to remember storylines from earlier in the series, all of this was pretty unique to Pokémon when DP did it. It's stayed in the show since then.

BW's is obvious: this was the first time TR stopped appearing in every episode. Thank God, this has stayed

XY was the first time Ash no longer had an older traveling companion traveling with him and mentoring. Since then, this has continued, none of Ash's companions are older than him in XY, SM, or JN. He is now the experienced one.

SM was the first time Ash stopped doing step-by-step exactly what the protagonist does in the games, and traveling from island to island and city to city. This gave the anime more freedom to do its own thing.

JN was the first time they totally made up a new plot that has nothing whatsoever to do with the games. Finally, the anime is unpredictable.
 

LilligantLewis

Bonnie stan
Technically not a stone evolution, but Ash's Gligar evolved in a similar way by holding an object (Razor Fang)
Yes and also Misty's Poliwhirl
 

LilligantLewis

Bonnie stan
And Brock’s Ludicolo
That's interesting. I had forgotten about it. I've probably only seen the episode once ever. how does the decision go down? Does Brock or Lombre initiate the idea to evolve? And if Brock, how did it broach it with Lombre? Was it at least better than Goh and Exeggcute?
 

Sham

Go, my Steady! Mega Shinka!!!
That's interesting. I had forgotten about it. I've probably only seen the episode once ever. how does the decision go down? Does Brock or Lombre initiate the idea to evolve? And if Brock, how did it broach it with Lombre? Was it at least better than Goh and Exeggcute?
If I recall Brock’s Lombre steals a Water Stone from a trainer Brock is in love with out of her bag and evolves. I was a child when it came out so idk but that’s what I remember.
 

LilligantLewis

Bonnie stan
If I recall Brock’s Lombre steals a Water Stone from a trainer Brock is in love with out of her bag and evolves. I was a child when it came out so idk but that’s what I remember.
ah ok. So still not a trainer deciding that his Pokémon needs to evolve.
 

EmberFireTrainer

An anomaly
This was a fun episode! It's always nice to see Ash run into old friends again even if they have been gone for just the previous series. ;)

My favorite part was baby Lei. I hope we see him again which I feel is likely. Hey, maybe Professor Kukui and Burnette will ask Ash and Goh to babysit baby Lei. That would be entertaining to see. He kinda looks like he can crawl? And if he can crawl, then he can find trouble to get into!
 
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Satomine Night

The Power of Z!
First off, baby Lei is the cutest thing ever. I love that Professor Burnet referred to Ash as Lei's big brother (and how that made Ash blush). She and Professor Kukui really do see Ash as their surrogate son, as much as he sees them as his surrogate parents, and I love that. Alolans are all about forming strong bonds, both with humans and with Pokémon, and I'm glad the writers haven't forgotten about that.

I also loved Ash's reunion with his Alola Pokémon. I wish they had gotten more screentime, though. Goh should have been more interested in Ash's Lycanroc and Melmetal, given that the former is a previously unknown form of Lycanroc and the latter is a mythical Pokémon. For that matter, he should have shown a greater interest in the rest of the Alola gang's Pokémon. The whole reason he went to Alola was to catch regional variants, but then he showed no interest in Kiawe's Alolan Marowak.

I liked the updates on the progress the Alola gang are making on their individual goals. Most of all, I loved seeing what Lillie and her family have been up to. I love that she mentioned Ash in her letter, even though she must know that he isn't around in receive her letters to the rest of the group. (Even Ash looked a bit surprised at the mention of his name.) I hope her inclusion is a sign that the writers intend to continue with her and her family's storyline. I hated that the SM anime ended without Lusamine, Gladion, and Lillie being reunited with Mohn.

I must ask, however... Gladion, O fantastic edgelord, what in the name of Naganadel are you wearing?

My main issue with this episode is that it felt rushed. I think it would have been better as a two-parter, with the first episode focusing on Ash's reunion with his Alola family and friends, including the welcome party and Lillie's letter, and then ending with Kiawe challenging Goh to a Pokémon battle; and the second episode focusing on on Kiawe and Goh's battle, and then on Goh exploring Melemele Island and catching various Alola Pokémon. Perhaps he would even catch a glimpse of Tapu Koko (who is surely wondering whatever happened to that young lad with the Pikachu he spent an entire series stalking).

I do like how Goh's social awkwardness was displayed here. He gets along so well with Ash that it's easy to forget that how socially awkward, even unsociable, he is. While he doesn't seem to have trouble interacting with people on a basic level, he clearly isn't used to people being so overly friendly with him, so the Alola gang's friendliness was a bit overwhelming for him.
 
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