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I'm still salty we never got a Pokemon Z.

Discussion in 'Pokémon Generation VI Discussion' started by Azureth, Nov 26, 2018.

  1. BCVM22

    BCVM22 Well-Known Member

    Why find it "baffling" when there's an eminently explicable, reasonable, and supportable answer right there? "I reserve my right to disregard an entirely reasonable theorem because I can." That's kind of odd, unless it's on the sole basis of "you [me/I] aren't an official source and thus we don't know for sure," which is your prerogative, I suppose.

    And the purpose of pointing out what could have happened is to illustrate that it was clearly not their intent to abandon Kalos early and under-utilize Zygarde, which is important because the underlying notion seems to be "why would Game Freak make such a terrible decision as to do all that?" The posited answer is that they didn't strictly decide that at all - it was decided for them by factors far beyond their control.
  2. Minedreigon

    Minedreigon A monument to all your sins

    Please don’t use the word theorem. Neither of us have the objectivity to begin to come close to that term, because it doesn’t exist here. Don’t mean to be rude, just saying that term should be used accurately.

    I definitely think a lot of the other instances of Pokémon getting shafted was due to terrible decisions, Whether or not this one is too is neither here nor there. I’m baffled even if it wasn’t a conscious decision: baffled in how it was allowed to happen despite planning, that is.
    MockingJ likes this.
  3. Ignition

    Ignition Praise Wooloo or persish

    I'm salty as well. I was hoping for a return to Kalos as the region was so underutilized that most people remember it for forms of Pokémon from previous generations. The shoehorned Zygarde side plot in the Gen 7 titles really bugged me out as we get cool side events for Mythicals in the past but a major legendary gets this? I still don't understand GF's thought process with Kalos
    Bolt the Cat likes this.
  4. BCVM22

    BCVM22 Well-Known Member


    Again, the decision was very likely taken out of their hands at the highest level. You can be assured they didn't go through the trouble of creating art, models and mechanics for the Zygarde formes solely to have them appear in the anime and to be awkwardly shoehorned into the next generation titles.

    I'm unclear as to why we have to repeatedly keep asking "why did Game Freak make this poor decision?"
  5. Ignition

    Ignition Praise Wooloo or persish

  6. Erron Black

    Erron Black The Outlaw

    This is where I disagree.

    For me, if Platinum weren't released Diamond/Pearl would've caused Gen 4 to ultimately be the worst generation of all time.(IMO it still is and Platinum doesn't make up for the poor handling of D/P)

    Third versions can save a generation from being a lackluster and disappointing set of games.

    I think XY could've totally been in a similar boat as D/P if they had improved it and released a Z version.
  7. Prof. SALTY

    Prof. SALTY The Scruffy Professor

    Funny, because I think gen 4 was one of the best gens. Platinum didn't need to save it, in fact I still prefer the story for Diamond and Pearl. The quality of life changes still make Platinum the best of the 3 to play, but I'd still play diamond again for the story over Platinum.

    X and Y didn't really offer much to expand on and would still be the most forgettable region.
  8. Leonhart

    Leonhart Disney fanatic

    Unlike most fans, I didn't feel that Gen VI was incomplete. Sure, a Z version could've added some neat new features, yet I felt like X/Y stood on their own feet well enough.
    MockingJ likes this.
  9. Erron Black

    Erron Black The Outlaw

    To me, vanilla Gen 4 had a very disjointed story, overall forgettable characters(barring Cynthia, clearly), lacking Pokedex(the biggest problem), mediocre soundtrack, and the entire post-game was locked behind completing the 'seen' portion of the Pokedex. None of it was appealing at all.

    Platinum definitely saved the gen from going down as terrible to me. The story wasn't as terrible in D/P, the characters were made a bit more memorable, and the Pokedex was vastly improved, Still my least favorite, but it's not horrible.(Can't remember if the post-game issue was solved in Platinum, been a long time for me)

    X/Y could've had similar fixes. The story could've... well, existed. The villainous team could've been done far better, basically all characters that weren't Korrina or Sycamore could've been made actually memorable, Gyms/E4 could've been actually challenging, the legendaries could've been actually important to the game, among many other problems this generation had. A 3rd version/sequel could've had big potential to correct many of these errors.

    Of course my thoughts on Gen 4 is opinion, but it shows that a third version can actually fix errors in a generation to people.
    Bolt the Cat likes this.
  10. Prof. SALTY

    Prof. SALTY The Scruffy Professor

    I don't see it as incomplete, I just think it's lacking is all.

    You're totally entitled to that opinion, I'm definitely not saying you're not. All for free speech, my dude.

    I do disagree with you though, especially regarding how memorable the two regions are. Though I have to make a slight edit to my original statement of gen 6 being the least memorable because for me it was very much gen 5. I see gameplay of BW and BW2 and I'm like "I literally don't even remember that" and I only recently replayed them when I got an English copy of Black. I at least remember most of the places in XY and... some of the characters. Very little of the story though.

    For me, Sinnoh was probably the second most memorable region with the 3rd most memorable characters. I thought the Sinnoh dex was perfect and I'm not super mad about the previous region mons in the wild. It feels more alive that way. And you should have seen every pokemon in the dex anyway playing the story... it's designed so that all pokemon are visible without needing to search them out, though you still can if you want to.

    I HIGHLY disagree with the complaints about the soundtrack. Pretty much every track is great and there are multiple tracks for each area based on the time of day. Loooooove it.
  11. Erron Black

    Erron Black The Outlaw

    Oh yeah, definitely, I know that for sure.

    I'm merely making a point that third versions can definitely fix issues that people had with the original releases, thus a third version to XY could've solved many of the issues the community have with the games, similarly to how Platinum did for me. Generally just the point I'm making here.
  12. 04n70n10

    04n70n10 Well-Known Member

    I don't know about a Z version, but at least in my opinion the "plot" in X/Y games was kinda different originally, for some reason GF cut off many parts probably at late stage in development. So this is the reason why the entire story felt lackluster for so many people.

    The Eternal Floette: for me this pokemon was originally a sort of key (or alternative it was needed for x reasons) of the ultimate weapon, indeed the weapon itself has a similar shape to a flower... not a coincidence for me. One of the main quest maybe was originally to find the eternal floette (maybe the pokemon village was originally the hideout of the eternal floette) before the team flare. And so on, probably there was originally something more about AZ and Lysandre (the latter is also the descendant of AZ's younger brother)., and so on, maybe even the ""roles"" of Xerneas and Yveltal...
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2018
  13. Prof. SALTY

    Prof. SALTY The Scruffy Professor

    I think the Floette was just gonna be an event pokemon.

    I get that, I just really don't think it would have saved it for me
  14. 04n70n10

    04n70n10 Well-Known Member

    And why it was never released? and unlike the mythicals, the eternal floette has a part in the main story of the games. So probably it was a pokemon obtainable in-game at some point, originally.
  15. Prof. SALTY

    Prof. SALTY The Scruffy Professor

    Aside from the fact that it would completely ruin the ending...?

    It's not a mythical, it's more akin to Cap Pikachu events. To me it was suuuuper obviously supposed to be an event.
  16. 04n70n10

    04n70n10 Well-Known Member

    Then, i have to repeat myself: why the eternal floette was never released? Distributable events don't ruin anything, they even programmed a special move, etc. Eternal floette seems the typical thing scrapped very late in development, and in general the plot of XY games seems (indeed?) butchered in many parts.... why the ultimate weapon has shape of a giant flower... etc

    It's a bit "bold", but i even suspect that the hidden pokémon village with that large field of flowers.... was originally the place where the eternal floette was hiding... "Legends say a place exists where Pokémon live in hiding, but no one has ever found it..." but in the end, in the games it's not that special (aside from the small and unrealated "unknown dungeon" in the post-game), unless...
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2018
  17. Prof. SALTY

    Prof. SALTY The Scruffy Professor

    The weapon is the shape of Eternal Floette's flower because AZ likes Floette...? like I don't really think it's that deep. I assume the event was dropped due to the team moving on to SuMo.
  18. Erron Black

    Erron Black The Outlaw

    Eternal Floette is really the only thing that genuinely irritates me at this point, I've gotten over the missing third version,(although it would've been nice to have) but Eternal Floette STILL being MIA officially just grinds my gears.
  19. 04n70n10

    04n70n10 Well-Known Member

    Here is the pokèdex destription of the Eternal Floette (yes, in USUM this thing even had a personal description!) found by datamining:

    Ultra Sun
    The flower it's holding can no longer be found blooming anywhere. It's also thought to contain terrifying power.

    Ultra Moon
    Terrifying energy is concealed within its ominous flower, but Floette still swings it about innocently.

    The signature move: Light of Ruin (power 140)
    Drawing power from the Eternal Flower, the user fires a powerful beam of light. This also damages the user quite a lot.

    Why such power? In the current plot of XY there is no mention, the ultimate weapon in the games it could only be activated with the power of Xerneas/Yveltal. AZ's floette is treated like a normal floette in the end (in my first run in the games i didn't even noticed the different flower), but in reality there is something more deep. So i bet this, the plot of XY games were originally different, maybe like i said (eternal floette a sort of "key"/energy for the ultimate weapon).

    Only GF know the thruth of course, but could someone give me that i (may) have at least some points?
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2018
    MockingJ likes this.
  20. Ducolamia

    Ducolamia SAYYYY WHAT???

    I honestly think while a Z version could've helped X and Y it wouldn't have saved it from the massive problems it had unless it was an overhaul. I actually believe they should've made a sequel and expand upon that. It gives them more room to work with while building off what they had. It doesn't help that most third versions usually don't change too much of the story.

    The major problems I had with X and Y were technical and plot related issues:

    -The characters are super weak. Your rival is the worst one. No exception.

    -Team Flare is a joke. They barely appear and do anything worthwhile and Lysandre is wasted potential.

    -The exp share is so integrated into the game the playing without it makes it a tedious slog. I've played through Y multiple times. Trying to get an even level team in this game is a pain UNLESS you use this thing. It's so clearly implemented to be used throughout the game it's ridiculous. But if you do, it becomes piss easy. It also doesn't help that the AI is reported to be extremely low and Masuda decided the best decision was to lower the difficulty for mobile players.

    -Mega Evolution is a wasted concept. You get them too late to care about them and what you do get is not your choice. If you don't want to use Lucario or the Kanto starters, you don't get a Mega you want until near the end of the game. And the fact that you can evolve any pokemon from being freshly caught is ludicrous.

    -The fact they literally reuse the same map layout for an area from Kanto, have the vast majority of Kanto pokemon throughout the game, and literally give you Kanto starters after the 1st gym is ridiculous.

    There is much more I could talk about with these games, but the problem with X and Y is that they have good concepts for something interesting, but it's implemented so poorly compared to other pokemon games. If they ever go back to this region, it's in desperate need of a remake or sequel. I don't want a third version because it's just adding more to major problems the games already had. I want a refinement and I don't think a Z version would cut it.

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