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In the last year of SM, how do you feel about each main characters focus/development?

Kintaro

Banned
So SM is ending this year and we probably have only a little over 30 eps to go before the saga ends. We have titles up to SM110 and both BW and XY ended around 142-143 eps, so yeah, we probably have give or take 30 eps left. Since Ash is likely to still get most of the focus till the end of the saga, how do you feel about the SM companions development?

For me most developed: Kiawe > Lana > Lillie > Mallow/Sophocles

In terms of how I like their personalities: Lana > Kiawe > Mallow/Lillie > Sophocles

In terms of how I like their pokemon: Kiawe > Lana > Mallow > Lillie > Sophocles


Besides that I feel like the writers should have kept Lillie more closer to her game incarnation. Lillie started off like she was going to be a major part of SM but her characters focus declined a lot after the first year and after the Aether arc ended. Even when the writers tease arcs for her....Gladion comes in and steals all the spotlight. He did that in the Ultra Beast arc and again in the first ep of Poni Island. She's also still to this day the only SM character without a single pokemon team change, given she still just has Vulpix after 110 eps, at least Mallow's pokemon got to fully evolve. I hope Lillie has some kind of arc in the last year of SM but at this point I don't know what they can do.

Kiawe is best SM character. Lana has surprisingly turned out to be one of the best characters of the saga which surprised me because when SM first started I didn't expect to like her. If she winds up in the league that will be even better.

Mallow is underdeveloped but she does have some decent focus, but sadly not much.
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
I still can't really vote Lana highly because she lacks something resembling a character arc. Kiawe, Sophocles and Lillie all started off with some key defects, and that played into their role throughout the show, they gained a chemistry with Ash, their captures and boosts complimented their personality and there was at least something dynamic to them if in an underplayed way. Lana and Mallow are almost blandly flawless characters that are never really taken out of their comfort zone, so whatever new breakthroughs they do get don't seem to really play into any development or agency.

Even worse the recent episodes seem to have also abolished the girls even doing slapstick anymore, so they're dull even on the comedic front, even Lillie hasn't been adorkable in ages. I find it hard to be invested in the female protagonists when they kept restraining them more and more from being entertaining characters.

Ash may or may not get another team member, but I suppose he is colourful enough to still make his limelight fun, even if we expect the inevitable with the league.

Kiawe has gotten some impressive power boosts and they seem to be letting Charizard become a proper team member and is supposedly building up to him being a proper league rival for Ash, this could be quite fun.

Sophocles I'm thinking might be about done, his little arc with Charjabug was okay if minimal, but otherwise he's mostly comic relief, if one we routinely get new little depths from.

Lillie has some things underway like her father, her potential Z Ring and a supposed battle royal. Just please, get her personality back online.

Lana is....doing bubble things. She'll supposedly full evolve Brionne and do something with Eevee (all that promotion must have been for something) but there doesn't seem to be a specific direction right now.

Mallow is dull. Sorry that's all I have.
 
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ash&charizardfan

Humans are tools
In terms of development only lillie and kiawe are standout, rest of them are all massively underdeveloped, don't know how someone can call lana even developed when she hardly got 3-4 focus episodes in 100 episodes not to mention her goal of forming biggest bubbles is also pretty underwhelming, in terms of personality yeah it can be said that she is standout with her snarky attitude. As for the pokemon this group of pokemon do not have same dynamic other groups had, the best one is probably alolan marowak the rest of others are kinda dull, snowy while being well developed lacks in personlity. SM companions pokemon are probably the worse group sine OS, the other groups of companions have some standout pokemon.
 

TheWanderingMist

Paladin of the Snow Queen
It's weird that they're basically cramming all of Lana's into this last part when they had things set up since the early days.

They never really did figure out what to do with Mallow betond giving her a generic nice girl personality but SM108 was by far her best episode.

Lillie should have stuck closer to her game incarnation, but it's not her fault the writers took an entirely different direction with Lusamine.

Sophocles is OK, I guess. He and Kiawe are funny at least.

And Ash is Ash, he's going to get the lion's share no matter what, but there was a lot of time on Ula Ula that could have been used on the companions that wasn't.

And TRio have 2 Z-Crystals but they haven't used the Darkinium-Z since that one ghost episode, when they got it in SM025.




----This next part is only sort of relevant----





The pacing and development are really a mess this region but hopefully the writers take the lesson of giving the characters genuine emotion into the next one and then maybe give it the (mostly) consistent pacing of XYZ in regards to plot and character development. Imagine how much more touching XYZ would have been if people besides Bonnie were capable of emotion. Or how well this region would have been received if it had XYZ's pacing.
 

Zoruagible

Lover of underrated characters
How I feel?

Kiawe's entering the League, okay can we see something hinting towards that? Oh, just him training with Ash.... like I'm not asking for an episode where he fights a Kahuna but given he's the first main character aside from Ash participating in an actual League I expected better! He's also the classmate that is genuinely funny and hasn't really had a forced moment. He doesn't get enough focus, which I guess you can blame the fact that they gave him all fully evolved Pokemon for that... would be nice if they gave him Growlithe >.>

Too much Lana focus, too little of the guys and Mallow -_-

Sophocles - Dragged out Charjabug evolving too long, now it honestly feels like his character is done :/

Mallow - Not enough focus the entire series. No z-ring either. Mallow is best girl and highly underrated

Lillie - Should have stuck to the game version. Anime! Lillie is beyond annoying and honestly a brat, Clefable is Lusamine's. Lusamine has the say on what happens to it, not Lillie. And the sudden 'Clefable is my BFF! :D' was forced.... never brought up before that point so why should I give a ****? It's not like Ash and Pikachu or Dawn and Piplup or even Brock and Croagunk! And the dub should have gotten a better VA. Everyone else is great....

TRio - Barely any focus on the actual characters themselves. At the start of the series I got excited because James had a pokeball collection... never became a focus and his bottlecap collection was absent completely(Which is quite strange for the gen where bottle caps are actually USEFUL!) until recently. They started off good but as the series progressed they gradually fell back to their XY role where they're plot devices for the sake of it, instead of letting them just be characters and letting Team Skull be the villains of the day(Who would fit a lot of the situations a lot more I might add!). And the z-ring.... Darknium feels completely pointless, like.... why bother? They basically only got the ring for Mimikyu's crystal and after that it's never really been used. :/
And they practically abandoned the rivalry and awesome chemistry they had going with Team Skull. TRio and Skull never met again nor appeared in the same episodes
And the whole Team Rocket as an organization presence fell short too.... still hoping for a Rainbow Rocket plot. Giovanni doesn't even have to be involved, just have Ash face the secretary and Kiawe against Mega Aggron, basically a rematch of Mega Evolution vs Z-move!
 

Twilight-Kun

Pokemon World Champion
It's frustrating that it took over 100 episodes for Kiawe, Lana, and Mallow to get any notable character development

Lillie got two development arcs and still feels as fleshed-out as the cardboard Mallow is made of

What's a Sophocles? Sounds disappointing


Frankly, the most interesting characters this series have been the pokémon, because they have the lion's share of high-quality animation devoted to them
 

ash&charizardfan

Humans are tools
It's frustrating that it took over 100 episodes for Kiawe, Lana, and Mallow to get any notable character development

Lillie got two development arcs and still feels as fleshed-out as the cardboard Mallow is made of

What's a Sophocles? Sounds disappointing


Frankly, the most interesting characters this series have been the pokémon, because they have the lion's share of high-quality animation devoted to them

To be fair its not like lana and mallow has gotten much development as well, kiawe is probably one character that got his own focus episode throughout the series but he didn't have fought except for 1-2 battles, he should at least fight and win atleast one z crystal of his own to make himself as a rival for ash.

Lillie's biggest problem is in first year of SM she was excellant but after aether arc she has gone flat and hasn't gotten attention at all except for 1 or 2 times. Lets hope she does something major in future.

Sopholcles actually did better than expected we were mostly expecting him to be the sixth wheel and he felt his presence more than mallow or even lana.

As for the pokemon only few pokemon were noteworthy like torracat, lycannroc or alolan marowak. Snowy got good character development with lillie but still looks bland. Eevee hasn't done anything since its capture, i still dont get the idea behind giving eevee to lana when it is just jumping around doing nothing, atleast with ash it would have more focus on it plus it could have evolved into a possible 8th gen eevolution.
 

FlygontheRavager

#1 Pokémon Anime Fan!
kiawe is probably one character that got his own focus episode throughout the series but he didn't have fought except for 1-2 battles, he should at least fight and win atleast one z crystal of his own to make himself as a rival for ash.

But...he kind of did, didn't he? In Episode 107.
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
I feel like Kiawe has done okay for a male companion, who usually don't get much limelight at all besides comic relief and exposition, while there is at least sort of recurring core development for Kiawe, if a subtle gradually moving one. Most of his episodes do admittedly tend to have a similar formula, him facing an antagonist, but having issues due to having not ceasing the potential of one of his Pokemon, and grasping it after rewards him with a bit more versatility.

I like the premise of Kiawe having too much of comfort zone for his recurring vice development, but I do admit we could have had more versatile limelight, maybe something concerning his little sister and his protectiveness of her, or more focus on his farm, or even focusing on the limits of his fire typing. Hell even just switching out Ash with him in a few of the slapstick filler plots like the shrink ray episode would have probably made hilarious spotlight for Kiawe due to how much more prideful he is. I mean, Ash is far from low on episodes, it wouldn't have hurt for Kiawe to have more than FOUR to himself.

Sophocles is a little closer to being a third wheel, but we still get more depths from him than most of the girls, and like Kiawe, he has something of a core flaw to work around, with him slowly coming out of his sheltered personality after getting Charjabug and being a more active trainer with the other boys.

Lillie was a little slow running in season one, but had great episodes, the AF arc gave her a rushed but effective dose of development with the rest of season two downplaying her but making her a terrific supporting character like Kiawe. Season Three she's felt a bit duller, like the boys she at least had a core flawed character to develop around throughout the series, even in milder limelight, but her adorkable desire to be proactive has been seen far less currently (I get she has to grow out of being the damsel in distress, but if Ash is allowed to have a bumbling agency surely so can she).

The problem is that the girls revolve a bit too much around positive discrimination this series. They lack a core flaw to consistently develop around and seldom have any token roadblocks or real challenges in their agendas to give them substance, something even lesser played females like Misty had throughout their run to keep them three dimensional. They don't even do much slapstick, which in a slapstick focused show tends to make you dead weight, and they lack much of a chemistry with Ash besides being his straight man. Lillie started off a good exception, being a very fallible and quirky character with valid ongoing development, but is risking leaning into the same problem right now.
 
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ash&charizardfan

Humans are tools
I could say that kiawe is so far probbly the best and most consistent companions out of all the male companions before him.
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
I've noticed that all the characters that have had some sort of dynamic characterisation this series have needed Ash to pivot it in some way. I mean not in the same one-note and almost all encompassing 'Ash inspires everyone' way like in XY, but he makes some small little nudge forward for them and then the series has them learning to take steps on their own.

Ash gave Sophocles Charjabug as a gift, who Sophocles routinely used in more activities and to become a more proactive trainer (Togedemaru appears a lot but is completely stagnant).

Ash got Lillie the egg that would hatch into Snowy and also played part in her overcoming her phobia (if by happenstance), along with essentially becoming her 'sempai'.

Ash helped Kiawe train and pinpoint the weak spot in his battling style, allowing him to make Turtonator more versatile and to capture Marowak.

It seems like (along with having a flaw in the first place) the characters that had personality potential ended up bouncing off of Ash in some way and getting some sort of small nudge in the right direction that started at least a small character arc. I mean, one could argue Ash also helped Lana get her Waterium Z, but that didn't play much into her personality development and hasn't been used much even in terms of the physical promotion she's gotten. Mallow hasn't really gone anywhere, unless the meeting with her mother and Shaymin may take that role instead.

The series hasn't actually been too bad in terms of chain reaction development (eg. Lycanroc's evolution sparked Litten's desire to evolve, and that ended up introducing the Masked Royal and Incineroar).
 
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Kintaro

Banned
I wonder how people will react if Lana enters the league. She's the only one of the main girls who could theoretically do it. I also think Mallow might get an arc with Shaymin now later on, I don't see why they'd give her a legendary if it wasn't going to do anything
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
I wonder how people will react if Lana enters the league. She's the only one of the main girls who could theoretically do it. I also think Mallow might get an arc with Shaymin now later on, I don't see why they'd give her a legendary if it wasn't going to do anything

It would be something I guess, but still mostly just a limelight quota, she has no current personal investment in battling like Ash or Kiawe do.

The only relevance I could see in her taking part is as some sort of final challenge for Kiawe, taking out a water specialist to truly prove his new versatility as a fire specialist (and finally one upping his class nemesis :p), though even that is in the form of an opponent and supporting role.
 

BlueDragonfangirl

Well-Known Member
All of them have been so boring it's hard to pin point who had the better character development compared to characters of previous series like May or Dawn but maybe compare them to Iris character or other male companions of the past who had very little to do. Out of all the Sun and Moon characters I guess Kiawae to some extent and perhaps Lilly but after her arc came to a close not much has been done with her since than there's Mallow who's done nothing the entire series.
 

shoz999

Back when Tigers used to smoke.
Gonna be honest. I do like the SM crew but come to think of it. There hasn't actually been a lot of character development for most of the group.
 

Xuxuba

Well-Known Member
@ Lillie
Started out fine, but, throughout the Ultra guardians arc, she faded into the background, aside from the Sandshrew filler. Ever since then she hasn't progressed much as a trainer, hasn't caught or evolved any pokemon and she doesn't really do much with the one she has.
She doesn't really have a goal, most of the development she has comes from her interactions with her family.
She is going to get another episode focusing on her family, which i grew a little tired of, but at least it's development nonetheless.

@ Lana
Despite loving her personality, i have to admit her terrible goal of creating bubbles doesn't allow for much development, if any at all.

The fact she caught Eevee doesn't really help her with her goal and her interactions with Eevee and Popplio didn't cause much development.

Aside from these team changes, she still is pretty much the same girl as the one that we saw on the beginning of the series.

@ Sophocles
Well, he got to evolve one of his pokémon. However, he doesn' really do much with them, so it's basically pointless to give him more pokémon.

Just like Lana, he still is pretty much the same.

@ Mallow
Like Lana, i like her personality, but, development-wise, she's lacking. Got one good episode where her mother appears, but that is about it.

@ Kiawe
I mean, as a trainer he seems to be getting stronger. Probably the one with the best development in that regards.

As a person tho, he remained quite stagnant, not having worked much on personality flaws.

@ Overall
Honestly, at this point i think it's too late to fix any character. Things like characters flaws are supposed to be introduced early in the series and not appear for just one episode and then get resolved in the same episode.

Even if they changed their goals to allow more development, there wouldn't be much time left to develop them and that change probably wouldn't feel very believable, just like Brock's sudden change on the last episodes of DP.

I think the only thing left for them to do is to keep their personalities entertaining (although, i can't say Sophocles was ever entertaining).
 
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VoltTacklingPika

Well-Known Member
SM's characters are a good example of the importance of timing in character development.

I see a lot of people saying Lillie has gone flat, but this was always going to happen as her progression happened in the first year of the show. Once they resolved her phobia and family issues, there was nothing left for her to do, besides improve as a trainer and find her father. The issue there though is that they aren't urgent problems, nor can they be integrated as easily into a story arc. It's the exact same problem they had with Clement in XY. Both of these characters are well-written and had satisfying arc, but after a point, their relevancy disappears.

I bang this drum a lot, but this is symptomatic of each season being three years long. It's difficult to keep every major character relevant throughout the entirety of those three years. If they spread out the progression, the pacing slows to a crawl. If they condense it, things will happen too fast. People keep saying the Lusmaine arc was "rushed", but I absolutely disagree with that, because 13 straight episodes - that's one whole season of anime, incidentally - is enough time to tell a complete story and develop a character, which is what they accomplished. Yet because it's part of a 150 episode series, it gets swallowed up. It only seems rushed because it wasn't spread out across the entirety of the show.

This effects Lana, Mallow and Sophocles too because they weren't given character arcs that could conceivably be explored over the entire duration of the show. In isolation, there's nothing wrong with their arcs, but in the context of this being a long-running show, there's a serious issue with relevancy. Lana's bubble goal doesn't have a lot of synergy with the Ultra Beasts stuff or the Necrozma arc, for example. Nor does it dovetail all that well with the other characters. She's the odd duck of the cast.

Mallow, meanwhile, is yet more wasted potential. In Tapu Fini's Mist was a good episode for her because it had a surprisingly weighty emotional moment. However, the issue with her mother was introduced during that episode and then resolved during it, which leads me to believe it was a late call by the writers and not something they planned on when the show began. If we knew from the beginning that her mother had passed away and that she had lingering regrets, then her subsequent falling out with her father, her determination to make the family business succeed, and the fact that all her classmates have mothers (who all appear at various points) would have been re-contextualised. There could have been a conflict between her and Lillie and/or Lusamine over their relationship (and that would have given her a bigger stake in the finale of that arc). If they build-up to it, then the reunion with her mother becomes the best moment in the whole season.

My overall feeling about them is that while the writers are tied-up by the long form format, they didn't help themselves. Some great work has been done on these characters, but I wish it was tied into the overall narrative of the show better. As it is, it feels very fragmented. Too much of the progression is done in isolation, when I feel that every step that the characters take should have a knock-on effect for someone else, especially in a cast as big as this one.
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
I feel like a character can last if they have some sort of chaining point they can keep playing into. Development hasn't exactly been plentiful in SM...like at all sometimes, but they have experimented a little with giving some of the cast star appeal to work in a more stagnant premise.

I think Kiawe, Lillie and Sophocles are the ones who best survived the erratic handling and pace because they were the ones besides Ash that the writers at least managed to establish a core for, they have a signature flaw to keep expanding upon and highlighting in their focus without being too much of a one note running gag, while they also have at least some sort of basic niche, even if it's only delved into so often. These basics can be branched out into all directions like chemistry with Ash and their Pokemon, agency in multiple situations (notice they always stand out the best in ensemble episodes like the UG missions) and just contributing to the general comedy. In most sports episodes for example you can get signature gags out of their vices, without just diverting into being the exact same gag over and over. I think the fact that they have managed to keep linking to these elements to some degree in their episodes does at least appeal to a subtle character arc.

Mallow and Lana however are completely lacking in those core traits, they don't really have any personality flaws (quirks maybe, but not really developed enough to be hinderances) and their niches are far too obtuse and underdeveloped to really integrate into group situations as VoltTacklingPika noted. Most of their big moments of usefulness are just waiting for Ash to get worfed and then curb stomping whatever lame baddie there is without much developed effort or strategy, which means even less when they aren't even battle centric. Even within the slapstick they're the most rarely targeted because their lack of flaws makes it less fun to undermine them. They 'get things' like Eevee and Shaymin but despite their fanfare, they haven't really improved their agency the same way the others' tune ups have. They feel incredibly bland and complacent characters, even by the standards of some previous companions. Lillie sometimes zigzags into the 'neutral female' syndrome as well (as I noted in the upper comment, though we've had some character checks since then thankfully), but she gets plenty enough fully fledged exceptions to consider her having 'clicked' to some degree, she at least doesn't always fade into the background in the group episodes, which kept her going to some degree post-AF arc.

I admit I liked the sort of running theme with the other four companions, the whole 'big fish in small pond' motif, they all had a niche but whenever they were out of their element they were hopeless and their weak points were obvious. That's easy to make fun and depthful and also adds this nice tint of humility to them that's not always seen with the anime. Despite the usual very obvious cases of plot armour it nearly always feels like those four have to TRY to accomplish just about anything. I don't really get this with Mallow and Lana however, they keep to one very obscure talent and are never really taken out of their comfort zone. They're not exactly remarkable but there's almost this instinct with the show to persistently siddle around making them 'losers' at anything, which is what makes the other four so sympathetic. How can you reach a top if there was no bottom to begin with?

My overall feeling about them is that while the writers are tied-up by the long form format, they didn't help themselves. Some great work has been done on these characters, but I wish it was tied into the overall narrative of the show better. As it is, it feels very fragmented. Too much of the progression is done in isolation, when I feel that every step that the characters take should have a knock-on effect for someone else, especially in a cast as big as this one.

I feel like, at the very least, they got that right with Ash's team a lot of the time. Unlike most previous series a lot of his rivals aren't just there for that sake, they start as such and then branch out as their own characters with their own individual limelight. They also are well set out in all being rivals to an individual member of Ash's team in particular, balancing them a little in limelight. A lot of the best handled companions are also those that click a good chemistry with Ash, and in most case he does something to set about branching out of their comfort zone with them slowly taking steps independently afterwards. He isn't all encompassing but he does the job well as a foil and world building mechanic.

Take the chain reaction development starting at Akala for example. Rockruff evolves into Lycanroc, Litten gains a rivalry with Lycanroc from him being bigger and resultantly trains, giving way for Masked Royal and Incineroar to debut as personal rivals, and for them to chain off Litten's evolution into Torracat while slowly getting weaned into their own limelight (first through a mostly Torracat episode, then a Torracat/Incineroar duo episode, then a mostly Incineroar episode). That was a decent methodical approach to developing multiple characters.

Many companions also sort of had a starting point caused by Ash, who is naturally more on-the-fly than them. His training with Kiawe chained off his ongoing attempts to become a versatile battler, sprucing up Turtonator's battle style and catching Marowak (who definitely added spice to Kiawe's team), while he got Sophocles Charjabug, which gave him some sort of dynamic focus bonding and raising a new Pokemon, giving him motive to hang out with the guys in more episodes and break from his sheltered kid lifestyle. Lillie was the more flourished 'mentored little sibling' example, being inspired and supported by Ash multiple times, though also having less direct but pivotal cases like getting her Snowy's egg or Nebby culminating her phobia arc.

In fact most of the characters failing to leave a mark this series seem to be the odd few that Ash fails to gain a chemistry with (Team Rocket are actually making effort to be relevant personal rivals for once for example, but since Ash and his team stonewall all of it, with the writers seldom investing any good face offs or interactions between them, they remain just another jobber bad guy, while, again, Mallow and Lana lack much of flaws or weak spots, so unlike the others there wasn't really a key moment a chemistry with Ash clicked an ongoing dynamic with them, he helped Lana get her Waterium Z I suppose, though that didn't really end up helping define her role).
 
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UltimateNinja

Praying for the holy relics
-Kiawe: Like him and his personality and the few character development episodes he got were at least decent to good and out of the cast he's the only one I can think of participating the Alola league. As the typical male companion, I like him, but there's still much room for improvment.

-Lillie: Started off okay, then the AF arc happened and the episodes she got were also decent, but then fell flat once again and since a year she barely get any development or show any progress. Missing goal also sucks. Okay character but she really needs more development as the female heroine.

-Lana: Okay but nothing special either. I don't really like that many of her character development episodes.

-Mallow: Started bad but recently I think she got slightly better. But still not great:

-Sophocles: Underused. Nothing to add.
 
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