In Universe Type Argument

[dman_dustin]

I hope this is okay.

Type Argument (In Universe):

There are some issues revolving around Helioptile and Litleo being normal types and evolving while changing their normal types. And

questioning why these normal types are evolving and changing into other types.

Some have said it makes no sense. Because normal is such a weird type and therefore needless if it was going to evolve into something else.

Others say that maybe the properties of it's evolution differ from the properties of its pre-evolution.

I'm with the latter group.

Now some argue that it makes no sense for Litleo to be classified as a normal type because it is immune to ghost types, while it's

hypothetical evolution not being immune to ghost types is not enough of a reason for why it has not been classified as a normal type.

And I think that's ridiculous. Well I could be wrong, but that's apparently the main argument for why Litleo or Helioptile shouldn't change

types when evolving, is because it's evolution shouldn't be reclassified due the different relationship of types than it's pre-evolution.

Again ridiculous.

Because classification, is a human invention.

The properties and functions of a type are not a human invention (well technically they are by Gamefreak but in-universe they aren't, and we

are talking about in-universe here) but defining those observations is a human invention. And it has to deal with language, and using that

language to define those functions and properties that we see.

Because way back then, the electric type didn't exist, and I mean semantically not scientifically. At the time it was observed it was a ???

element. Let's refer to types as elements.

Now way back then let's assume there were five elements. Normal, Ghost, Electric, Ground, Fire back then I'm sure it looked like this:

1. ??? element
2. ??? element
3. ??? element
4. ??? element
5. ??? element

Therefore through observations and seeing the relationships between the two elements, Scientists decided to give these types names, for

convenience sake so now it is:

1. Normal element
2. Ghost element
3. Electric element
4. Ground element
5. Fire element

Observation and defining those observation between the relationships between the elements, scientists have come to the conclusion that:

Normal elements and Ghost elements are immune to each other, they do not affect each other at all.

The electric element struggles with the ground element, while the ground element is not affected by the ground element.

The ground element appears to be very effective against the fire element.

A year later a new element is discovered:

??? Element

Hmm, what do we have here, a different element. Through observation they find that the only relationship with the five elements is that

normal elements are weak against it, and ghost elements are immune to it. So scientists have named it Fighting element.

Keep going, until we have our 17 elements, well I guess 18 now (but until the full fairy type match up chart is revealed we will ignore it).

So 17 elements.

So let's then get to the Pokemon. It has been observed that Pokemon have elements. But elements are these Pokemon. Right now, they are of the

??? element.

Let's choose a Pokemon, we'll call it Frangoria (a fakemon seems more appropriate for this argument). Now observing its relationship with

other Pokemon, Pokemon who have been classified. Fangoria is either a ??? element or a ???/??? element.

We have come to the conclusion that Fangoria is weak against fire, fighting and ground (fire and fighting being very strong against

Fangoria). But is strangely neutral to the steel element and the rock element. And resists normal, flying, bug, ghost, grass, psychic,

dragon. And is also completely immune to poison. It is therefore a steel and ice element Pokemon. It seems that the primarily element however

seems to be ice, so we will classify Fangoria as an ice/steel Pokemon. (forgive anything that I missed in regards to type match ups, I

should've chosen something we already had, oh well, moving on)

Anyway how is that wrong? How is it wrong to say Fangoria is an ice/steel Pokemon because of all the element match ups. After all ice/steel

is merely a classification for the Pokemon. And those element have specific relationships with those other elements.

I suppose there are other ways to classify a Pokemon, but I think the easiest way is to determine the relationship a Pokemon has with another

type.

And I don't see how any of this is flawed, in any way.

Properties and functions of something do just exist but they are merely undefined and merely are seen through observations, which has nothing

to do with language. You see/watch a person getting running over by a car, that's bad news. Conveying this to another person who wasn't

there, that's defining your observations.

And as far as I'm concerned defining a ??? or even ???/??? is completely man made. I'm not saying that the electric element doen't exist or didn't exist at one time. I'm saying it was undefined and unknown, and could only be observed. And that it's relationship with another element was also unknown.

??? is weak to ???. What those unknown types are, are unknown until humans define them.

So what are your thoughts on this?

 

[IAintObeezy]

I...am very confused. Is there a way you can simplify this?

 

[Ditto24]

Hi

Ok, first of all, my statement to you at first didn't say that Helioptile and Litleo couldn't be Normal type. I'm happy they are and it's a fun new type combo and I can't wait to use both.

Your theory on typing a pokemon is purely 100% based on battle. Do Pokemon only exist in battle? Does Pikachu not exist when its not battling? The answer is obviously no. So Pikachu is still an Electric type right?

Your theory completely ignores Pokemon themselves, does Pikachu being able to create electricity count towards anything to Pikachu being Electric?? coz your theory is saying that no it doesn't. You say that Charmander having a flame tail and be able to breathe Fire doesn't mean anything or contribute it to being a Fire type.

 

[storm12]

I hope this is okay.

Type Argument (In Universe):

There are some issues revolving around Helioptile and Litleo being normal types and evolving while changing their normal types. And

questioning why these normal types are evolving and changing into other types.

Some have said it makes no sense. Because normal is such a weird type and therefore needless if it was going to evolve into something else.

Others say that maybe the properties of it's evolution differ from the properties of its pre-evolution.

I'm with the latter group.

Now some argue that it makes no sense for Litleo to be classified as a normal type because it is immune to ghost types, while it's

hypothetical evolution not being immune to ghost types is not enough of a reason for why it has not been classified as a normal type.

And I think that's ridiculous. Well I could be wrong, but that's apparently the main argument for why Litleo or Helioptile shouldn't change

types when evolving, is because it's evolution shouldn't be reclassified due the different relationship of types than it's pre-evolution.

Again ridiculous.

Because classification, is a human invention.

The properties and functions of a type are not a human invention (well technically they are by Gamefreak but in-universe they aren't, and we

are talking about in-universe here) but defining those observations is a human invention. And it has to deal with language, and using that

language to define those functions and properties that we see.

Because way back then, the electric type didn't exist, and I mean semantically not scientifically. At the time it was observed it was a ???

element. Let's refer to types as elements.

Now way back then let's assume there were five elements. Normal, Ghost, Electric, Ground, Fire back then I'm sure it looked like this:

1. ??? element
2. ??? element
3. ??? element
4. ??? element
5. ??? element

Therefore through observations and seeing the relationships between the two elements, Scientists decided to give these types names, for

convenience sake so now it is:

1. Normal element
2. Ghost element
3. Electric element
4. Ground element
5. Fire element

Observation and defining those observation between the relationships between the elements, scientists have come to the conclusion that:

Normal elements and Ghost elements are immune to each other, they do not affect each other at all.

The electric element struggles with the ground element, while the ground element is not affected by the ground element.

The ground element appears to be very effective against the fire element.

A year later a new element is discovered:

??? Element

Hmm, what do we have here, a different element. Through observation they find that the only relationship with the five elements is that

normal elements are weak against it, and ghost elements are immune to it. So scientists have named it Fighting element.

Keep going, until we have our 17 elements, well I guess 18 now (but until the full fairy type match up chart is revealed we will ignore it).

So 17 elements.

So let's then get to the Pokemon. It has been observed that Pokemon have elements. But elements are these Pokemon. Right now, they are of the

??? element.

Let's choose a Pokemon, we'll call it Frangoria (a fakemon seems more appropriate for this argument). Now observing its relationship with

other Pokemon, Pokemon who have been classified. Fangoria is either a ??? element or a ???/??? element.

We have come to the conclusion that Fangoria is weak against fire, fighting and ground (fire and fighting being very strong against

Fangoria). But is strangely neutral to the steel element and the rock element. And resists normal, flying, bug, ghost, grass, psychic,

dragon. And is also completely immune to poison. It is therefore a steel and ice element Pokemon. It seems that the primarily element however

seems to be ice, so we will classify Fangoria as an ice/steel Pokemon. (forgive anything that I missed in regards to type match ups, I

should've chosen something we already had, oh well, moving on)

Anyway how is that wrong? How is it wrong to say Fangoria is an ice/steel Pokemon because of all the element match ups. After all ice/steel

is merely a classification for the Pokemon. And those element have specific relationships with those other elements.

I suppose there are other ways to classify a Pokemon, but I think the easiest way is to determine the relationship a Pokemon has with another

type.

And I don't see how any of this is flawed, in any way.

Properties and functions of something do just exist but they are merely undefined and merely are seen through observations, which has nothing

to do with language. You see/watch a person getting running over by a car, that's bad news. Conveying this to another person who wasn't

there, that's defining your observations.

And as far as I'm concerned defining a ??? or even ???/??? is completely man made. I'm not saying that the electric element doen't exist or didn't exist at one time. I'm saying it was undefined and unknown, and could only be observed. And that it's relationship with another element was also unknown.

??? is weak to ???. What those unknown types are, are unknown until humans define them.

So what are your thoughts on this?

Erm, I've never said that it's type changing has anything to do with match ups- you're preoccupation with type matchups is what is making this so difficult. The type of a pokemon is inherent traits that are insular to the pokemon itself- not how other types affect it. The types themselves are based on what they are- not what affects what- that IS integral as well- BUT it is a porduct of a pokemon's typing NOT the reason for it- Pikachu is Electric because it is Electirc- Electric is defeind by it being Electric, not by being weak to this etc- What of Eelektross- it is pure Electric but NOT weak to Ground because of it's ability- hence how it is STILL an Electric type, but NOT weak to Ground- because it carries defining traits of an Electric type, like you know, being all electrical etc. When they test Eelektross and realise it is NOT weak to Ground- what then? Yeah. That's how pokemon's types are applied to them, in a descriptive sense of what they do/are/look like/behave like etc etc. it' match ups come as RESULT of this not as the reason for them- you are confusing the fact they have those match ups with thme BEING those match ups. What about the ability Scrappy? It indicates a pokemon able to use Normal techniques on Ghosts- yet they remain Normal and Ghost's remain Ghosts- Types ARE integral- their match ups are not. Abilities and moves can change these match ups and their effectiveness,but it doesn't change their type. Certain pokemon CAN change their type, but that is their gimmick- it is a gimmick rather.

You're argument relies on presupposed schemes or relationships in order carry on- you need to know types before you use them- you say it yourself of Fangoria- observing it with pokemon who HAVE been classified- HOW? How do they begin with these classifications if not looking at them in isolation and what they are/mean/can do rather than how they interact with other pokemon and their moves.

If it were as you say it were, then there should conceivably be types of every possible match up etc- as they just become occurences of a pattern- but types are ARBITRARY- their match ups don't define a pokemon's capabilities/ physiology etc. THAT determines the match ups.

 

[dman_dustin]

I...am very confused. Is there a way you can simplify this?

Not sure. I'd need to know what you are confused about.

Hi
Your theory on typing a pokemon is purely 100% based on battle. Do Pokemon only exist in battle? Does Pikachu not exist when its not battling? The answer is obviously no. So Pikachu is still an Electric type right?

Well I don't know, how can a Stunfisk be in water outside of battle despite it's typing making it weak to such water.

Which means advantages and disadvantages can only exist in battle or attacking sense. Therefore classifying a Pokemon's type can only be because of battle.

Now I understand where you are coming from, but I assume that two wild Pokemon fighting each other over territory can be classified as not a battle, as a battle seems to imply a trainer of some kind and some non territorial issue well outside the wild Pokemon.

And I'm sure wild Pokemon were blasting attacks at each other. And I'm sure an Infernape vs Leavanny, with Infernape being superior.

Your theory completely ignores Pokemon themselves, does Pikachu being able to create electricity count towards anything to Pikachu being Electric?? coz your theory is saying that no it doesn't. You say that Charmander having a flame tail and be able to breathe Fire doesn't mean anything or contribute it to being a Fire type.

An electrical eel produces electricity but we don't classify it as an electric being, all it can do use what we have defined as Bioelectrogenesis. There are other non biological things that can produce electricity. Do we classify them as organisms as well because they can produce electricity? Or do we just say an electric eel producing electricity is just a special feature for that animal.

Just like how some animals can produce toxins. But not all them would likely be classified as a poison type Pokemon if they were to be a Pokemon.

So no, Charmander being able to breath fire, would not constitute it as a fire type. Nor would it's fiery tail (although, I can't think of any strong examples that would prove me right in regards to fire types).

Like Dunsparce has wings but is not classified as a flying type, or Beedrill having wings and not classified as a flying type.

Or why some Pokemon can change type based on their environment while other Pokemon cannot.

All this means is that these Pokemon have elements that they have some control over. A Pokemon's own typing however can only exist through battle. A Chimchar has no problem climbing rocks, hell it can learn rock climb, and I'm sure a rock smacking it is going to hurt, but not as much as a rock element attack like stone edge.

Somehow a Rattata is able to use ice beam, thunderbolt, despite that there is no reason for it to be able to do so. It's not found in really cold locations, that are always cold, and I doubt it's in constantly near electricity. And between Rattata and Pikachu a lightning bolt will be drawn more to Pikachu than Rattata.

So all I can say is, to your argument, is that Pokemon have many features, some more prominent than others. Hell some Pokemon of some type can barely use on of their types, or their moves. Like Ferrothorn, I think it can barely use grass or steel types moves, and yet is it is somehow classified as grass and steel. And the only reason why that would be the case is because of other element attacks attacking it.

So a Pokemon's type has to be classified because of it's weaknesses and strengths and its extreme attacking/defending relationship with other types.

Should Farfetch'd be classified as a grass type, just because it can learn leaf blade, and it's the only non grass type to learn it. Or is is because of the leek it uses and somehow being able to put grass energy and using it as such.

Just like how Flabebe, can somehow use it's flower and use it in battle, might as well classify it as a grass type, right?

Features do not classify a Pokemon as a type rather than gives them a reason to use said element types, it has to be the offensive and defensive relationship between other types for why an organsim would be a classified as a certain type.

Now logically a Pokemon of a certain type should be able to use a lot of moves of that type, being of that type, but that isn't always the case. Like before B2/W2, Scraggy and Scrafty, I believe could hardly use any dark types, not that there's a wide selection mind you. But still there are exceptions.

So fine, a Pikachu exhibits electric element properties, but my argument is that because it was found that electric element Pokemon are weak to ground type moves as well as the other type relationships. Pikachu was classified as such.

I suppose Same type attack bonus would be a good counter-argument, but how would you decide if Snorunt using ice beam classifies it as an ice type, simply because it might be stronger than Rattatas. Rather than possibly be because Snorunt is stronger than Rattata.

Or why is Ninetales energy ball stronger than a Sunkern's energy ball. Is Ninetales a grass type because it's energy ball is more effective than a Sunkern's energy ball?

And since the concept of stats and is completely fictional, that's where Same type attack bonus is flawed. Is because there's no way two different types can be considered equal in strength, and why one's attack is 50% stronger than the other.

Edit:

As for the argument of abilities.

That's no different than someone being really good at computers, while another human isn't. Should the "less intelligent" be reclassified as something other than human because other humans can be good at computers.

I think abilities didn't always exist, meaning one time, Pokemon with Flash Fire, were not immune to fire types, but some of them are. I mean after all if one type of species is immune because of an ability, shouldn't all of them be?

Besides Scrappy is bad example, because one Miltank is still immune to ghosts, still weak to fighting types, and it's ability is like a learned feature, so it somehow was able to find a way to go past a Pokemon's immunity.

Just like how some moves, allow elements to be ignored.

 

[Endolise]

Well I don't know, how can a Stunfisk be in water outside of battle despite it's typing making it weak to such water.

The water that the Stunfisk is in isn't actively trying to exploit the Stunfisk's weakness by using the water in an offensive manner. In a sense, I'm "weak" to knives because they can kill me, but simply holding one will not affect me in any harmful way. I have to be stabbed or cut with one in order for that to happen.

 

[Ditto24]

Not sure. I'd need to know what you are confused about.

Well I don't know, how can a Stunfisk be in water outside of battle despite it's typing making it weak to such water.

Which means advantages and disadvantages can only exist in battle or attacking sense. Therefore classifying a Pokemon's type can only be because of battle.

Now I understand where you are coming from, but I assume that two wild Pokemon fighting each other over territory can be classified as not a battle, as a battle seems to imply a trainer of some kind and some non territorial issue well outside the wild Pokemon.

And I'm sure wild Pokemon were blasting attacks at each other. And I'm sure an Infernape vs Leavanny, with Infernape being superior.



An electrical eel produces electricity but we don't classify it as an electric being, all it can do use what we have defined as Bioelectrogenesis. There are other non biological things that can produce electricity. Do we classify them as organisms as well because they can produce electricity? Or do we just say an electric eel producing electricity is just a special feature for that animal.

Just like how some animals can produce toxins. But not all them would likely be classified as a poison type Pokemon if they were to be a Pokemon.

So no, Charmander being able to breath fire, would not constitute it as a fire type. Nor would it's fiery tail (although, I can't think of any strong examples that would prove me right in regards to fire types).

Like Dunsparce has wings but is not classified as a flying type, or Beedrill having wings and not classified as a flying type.

Or why some Pokemon can change type based on their environment while other Pokemon cannot.

All this means is that these Pokemon have elements that they have some control over. A Pokemon's own typing however can only exist through battle. A Chimchar has no problem climbing rocks, hell it can learn rock climb, and I'm sure a rock smacking it is going to hurt, but not as much as a rock element attack like stone edge.

Somehow a Rattata is able to use ice beam, thunderbolt, despite that there is no reason for it to be able to do so. It's not found in really cold locations, that are always cold, and I doubt it's in constantly near electricity. And between Rattata and Pikachu a lightning bolt will be drawn more to Pikachu than Rattata.

So all I can say is, to your argument, is that Pokemon have many features, some more prominent than others. Hell some Pokemon of some type can barely use on of their types, or their moves. Like Ferrothorn, I think it can barely use grass or steel types moves, and yet is it is somehow classified as grass and steel. And the only reason why that would be the case is because of other element attacks attacking it.

So a Pokemon's type has to be classified because of it's weaknesses and strengths and its extreme attacking/defending relationship with other types.

Should Farfetch'd be classified as a grass type, just because it can learn leaf blade, and it's the only non grass type to learn it. Or is is because of the leek it uses and somehow being able to put grass energy and using it as such.

Just like how Flabebe, can somehow use it's flower and use it in battle, might as well classify it as a grass type, right?

Features do not classify a Pokemon as a type rather than gives them a reason to use said element types, it has to be the offensive and defensive relationship between other types for why an organsim would be a classified as a certain type.

Now logically a Pokemon of a certain type should be able to use a lot of moves of that type, being of that type, but that isn't always the case. Like before B2/W2, Scraggy and Scrafty, I believe could hardly use any dark types, not that there's a wide selection mind you. But still there are exceptions.

So fine, a Pikachu exhibits electric element properties, but my argument is that because it was found that electric element Pokemon are weak to ground type moves as well as the other type relationships. Pikachu was classified as such.

I suppose Same type attack bonus would be a good counter-argument, but how would you decide if Snorunt using ice beam classifies it as an ice type, simply because it might be stronger than Rattatas. Rather than possibly be because Snorunt is stronger than Rattata.

Or why is Ninetales energy ball stronger than a Sunkern's energy ball. Is Ninetales a grass type because it's energy ball is more effective than a Sunkern's energy ball?

And since the concept of stats and is completely fictional, that's where Same type attack bonus is flawed. Is because there's no way two different types can be considered equal in strength, and why one's attack is 50% stronger than the other.

Edit:

As for the argument of abilities.

That's no different than someone being really good at computers, while another human isn't. Should the "less intelligent" be reclassified as something other than human because other humans can be good at computers.

I think abilities didn't always exist, meaning one time, Pokemon with Flash Fire, were not immune to fire types, but some of them are. I mean after all if one type of species is immune because of an ability, shouldn't all of them be?

Besides Scrappy is bad example, because one Miltank is still immune to ghosts, still weak to fighting types, and it's ability is like a learned feature, so it somehow was able to find a way to go past a Pokemon's immunity.

Just like how some moves, allow elements to be ignored.

No offense, your argument is jumping from real world to pokemon world to anime just for the benefit of some of your points, I've only ever referred to ingame, which is what you posted as the thread title.

You have honestly surprised me by saying that Charmander having distinct Fire affiliations has nothing to do with it being Fire, I don't understand how you can just turn around and refuse this possibility.

You are saying that Pikachu is only weak to Ground and therefor is Electric. That statement is correct, I never said it wasn't. But you are not giving me the reason of why it is. You just give me the same answer but in a different order. Pikachu hates Earthquake, we agree on this, so is Pikachu only an Electric type when Earthquake hits or is it Electric at the very second the move is used?? Pokemon aren't typeless until an attack hits them.

Your theory only proves their typing, you're not giving me the reason for their typing.

 

[storm12]

The water that the Stunfisk is in isn't actively trying to harm the Stunfisk by exploiting its weakness and using the water in an offensive manner. In a sense, I'm "weak" to knives because they can kill me, but simply holding one will not affect me in any harmful way.

LOVE this get me battle properties, are thus, themselves synthetic- so they do not define a pokemon in it's native state =|

[sigh] the methodology here is flawed dude. Language is a kind of metaphor- we cannot perfectly define anything with it, because Language itself is synthetic.; the world it describes exists independently of it; the phenomena of our observations is NOT the same as the noumenon, thing thing itself as it is outside being observed. Pikachu is an electric type whether or not someone did lab tests on it to work out it was weak to Ground- it was an Electric type AND weak to Ground because of that- it doesn't BECOME an Electric type because they OBSEVERVED it to be weak to Ground =| It was Electric before- and the same time as weak to Ground =|

Your theory is paradoxical too- how do they know what Ground moves are or Rock moves etc- to TEST on these pokemon? You are presupposing that we know what types moves are and what there match ups are in order to apply that to each pokemon- whereas- it is more the case we would have came upon these groupings through observing HOW these pokemon interact to begin with- yet it wasn't the observation that made these interactions occurs as they do! The names we give each type etc. are descriptive observations of what is ALREADY there! Pokemon's types are independent of each other- their interactions come as a result of their already being something to interact =|

Observation.

There are now 18 types, let's ignore the fairy type for a moment so there's 17 types.

But way back then these things were not defined. So it looked like this:

1. ???
2. ???
3. ???
4. ???
5. ???
.
.
.
17. ???

By observing that a Pokemon has advantages and disadvantages against other Pokemon gives these ??? a classifications.

I'm not arguing electric didn't exist, I'm arguing that, it was not defined and not classified. Therefore as far as anyone is concerned it is ??? type.

If a Pokemon shows up, and is completely brand new, never before seen, never classified. And it just is.

You cannot say that said Pokemon is a normal type, pure normal type, so therefore it is immune to ghost types Pokemon without observation.

Classifying something as a type or dual type because it is weak against something, resistant against something is defining your observations.

Hmm, this element has this type of relationship with this element, so on and so forth, oh let's name this element electric type and let's name this other type ground.

We have observed that the electric element is weak against the ground element and ground is not affected by the electric element.

Pokemon shows up.

Hmm, what is this Pokemon's type? We don't know, we've never seen it before. Let's use a ghost type move, nope it seemed to take damage, therefore we cannot classify it as a normal type because that's not the type of relationship this Pokemon has with this type.

Hmm, this Pokemon seems to have a harder time with ground type moves. As we have defined those Pokemon who have a hard time with the ground element are Rock, Steel, Electric, Poison. Fire.

Hmm, this Pokemon does not seem to be weak against water do therefore it cannot be either rock or fire type. Hmm, it doesn't seem to be affected by fighting, therefore it cannot be steel. It is not noticeably affected horribly by poison types. That leaves only one option.

This Pokemon appears to be a pure electric type, because it most fits the type relationship than anything else. Let's do some more testing.

It seems to resist steel and flying types, and seems to absorb electricity much more than being affected by it. We therefore are classifying this new Pokemon as an electric type. Therefore it's ??? type is now Electric type.

Do you understand my argument now.

A finite number of types is not a given, you are arguing that there was 17 types there to be named, observed and thus be put onto your list of ????? Where as the groupings themselves are almost fallacious- what constitutes the difference between type is hard to define at times- like some aspects of Rock and Ground type characteristics- yet there is enough of a difference to separate them out based on Rock dealing with hardened, non metallic minerals whereas the Ground is more to do with granular sediment and subterranean forces.

The whole concept of type and typings is based on how similiar/dissimiliar pokemon are to each other in appearance/habitat/abilities/composition/temperemant/lineage etc. NOT it's relationship to other types of elements- that comes as a result of the pokemon itself being of type- because the 'type' is the notion of their being enough of a similiarity between particular moves/pokemon to give them an arbitrary- 'type'- that categorizes them- similiar too, albeit different to as well, the notion of taxons in reality. You are stating that the concept of types is a clear cut given whereas it isn't and they aren't.

A finite number of types is not a given,

Really? Because that's totally what I was arguing. -.-

you are arguing that there was 17 types there to be named, observed and thus be put onto your list of ????? Where as the groupings themselves are almost fallacious

If there is a new type it will be obvious that it has different relationships with the other types, why do you think no two type are exactly the same, each type has its own strength/weaknesses, this argument would hold water, if there were two types that were identical.

Blah Type- Immune to ghost, weak to fighting, and does no damage to ghost types, and is resisted by rock and steel types.

That couldn't exist without some unique feature, therefore blah type cannot exist, because it's no different than normal types. and exists for the same of existing.

what constitutes the difference between type is hard to define at times- like some aspects of Rock and Ground type characteristics- yet there is enough of a difference to separate them out based on Rock dealing with hardened, non metallic minerals whereas the Ground is more to do with granular sediment and subterranean forces.

In real life yes maybe rock and ground are similar, but you're ignoring the relationships with types. Rock is super effective against flying types, flying types are immune to ground types, sure there are similarities BUT they are different and they may share some relationships with types with each other, but there is a difference.

The whole concept of type and typings is based on how similiar/dissimiliar pokemon are to each other in appearance/habitat/abilities/composition/temperemant/lineage etc. NOT it's relationship to other types of elements- that comes as a result of the pokemon itself being of type- because the 'type' is the notion of their being enough of a similiarity between particular moves/pokemon to give them an arbitrary- 'type'- that categorizes them- similiar too, albeit different to as well, the notion of taxons in reality. You are stating that the concept of types is a clear cut given whereas it isn't and they aren't.

I disagree, Pikachu may be able to control electricity, but they are found in forests where there are grass, bugs, and flying types. Difference is all the types I just listed resist or are immune to ground types. Pikachu however is not.

Stunfisk can be found in water, but is weak against water types. Maybe the move camouflage can be responsible here, but the moment you fish one up use a water attack or even an ice attack it's going to take serious damage.

You ignore the relationship between two types, but that's how advantages/disadvantages are defined.

I'm not saying electric type is electric type solely because it is immune to ground type.

I'm only talking about the Pokemon themeselves.

The elements themselves are an entirely different.

Electricity exists in lighting, in some fruit (where citric acid, I believe acts as some kind of energy source), and I'm sure there is some man made reason for being able to create electricity, simply by having the parts that produce electricity in some fashion, like a wind mill, how wind creates power.

Elements themselves I'm sure are classified for whatever reason. But we're talking about biological organisms here. You can't ignore the relationship between the types when an air slash attack would murder a Leavanny or a fire attack doing the same thing.

A type does not have advantages and disadvantages just because it is said type, it has advantages and disadvantages because it has been observed to have those advantages and disadvantages.

There is no reason why a rock is weak against water, ignoring erosion, because a lot of stones sit at the bottom of a river, and it would probably take many years before water would actually effect.

But a rock element being weak against a water element that makes sense. Same with ground. All water does is make ground into mud, and a lot of water, will create a pond, a lake, but it doesn't "kill" the soil (since a lot of plants grow in soil and water, and if water killed soil, then the plant could not grow).

But a Pokemon that is a ground element, firing a jet of water element at it, would be pretty serious, because it would probably be changing its composition into something it's not.

Think of Steel types. Steel and metal do melt, but at insanely high temperatures, 100` temperatures aren't going to melt a lot of metallic objects, but it will superheat it to a much higher temperature. If a Pokemon is an organism, I assume under all that metal typing there are fleshy weak organs. Superheating it's outer shell, is going to cause some serious internal damage.

I think ignoring the relationship between two types in regards to classifying a Pokemon is extremely flawed.

I mean I do get that a Pokemon being of a type is going to have advantages and disadvantages but all that hasn't been defined yet.

I have not said ignoire them; on the contrary it IS important, BUT- when a pokemon is typed- you're saying Pikachu's ability to generate Electricity is the primary reason it is classified as an Electric type? Look at it and Eelektross- as found in nature, Eelektross is immune to Ground, thus has NO observable weaknesses BUT it is not a Flying type- the type that is immune to Ground. So Pikachu AND Eelektross are both Electric, but only one is weak to Ground? By your logic dude, they would cease to have the same, pure typing- Electric. So what is the link between them? Their abilities relating to Electricity (as it is presented in pokeworld) NOT their weakness to Ground.

I've GOT it!

Type Match ups are an EMERGENT property:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergent_properties#Emergent_properties_and_processes

They emerge from the pokemon's physiology, abilities etc- Oddish isn't weak a Grass/Poison type because it is weak to x types- it is a Grass/Poison type because it is flora able to produce toxic dust as it's defining traits, those they dominate it's existance- also the battle properties of a type aren't the same as it outside of battle as Enodlise said =| not ever leaf is sharp enough to cut, unlike the move Razor Leaf =|

Oddish's type match ups EMERGE from it's behavioral/physiological/magical/pokelogical adaptations etc. Hence how Eelektross is an Electric type that is, by it's native state, NOT weak to Ground- yet it is clearly Electric =| get me?

I have not said ignoire them; on the contrary it IS important, BUT- when a pokemon is typed- you're saying Pikachu's ability to generate Electricity is the primary reason it is classified as an Electric type? Look at it and Eelektross- as found in nature, Eelektross is immune to Ground, thus has NO observable weaknesses BUT it is not a Flying type- the type that is immune to Ground. So Pikachu AND Eelektross are both Electric, but only one is weak to Ground? By your logic dude, they would cease to have the same, pure typing- Electric. So what is the link between them? Their abilities relating to Electricity (as it is presented in pokeworld) NOT their weakness to Ground.

I don't buy ability argument.

Because the same species can have two different abilities.

All this is would be a Pokemon adapating to its weakness to survive.

Gengar vs Miltank and Zangoose

Miltank's attacks are affecting it, Zangoose is not.

Just because Miltank has an ability to bypass does it make Gengar any less immune normal attacks.

Gengar vs Miltank 1 and Miltank 2

Miltank 1 is hitting Gengar, Miltank 2 is not. Because one has thick fat, while the other scrappy.

Again being able to bypass advantages and disadvantages doesn't make them any less immune to the thing.

So just because the Tynamo line has an ability to make it immune to ground types, doesn't make it any less immune. Take away their ability, and ground types will still hurt the crap out of them.

Plus I think abilities came after the classifications of types. Plus there are things that can ignore abilities. Such as Gastro Acid. Abilities I reason, exists as a need to counter things, same with certain moves.

Doesn't make my argument less valid.

Mate, you've slipped up here. A pokemon exists as it is- all at once- not a then b then c etc. Eelektross in it's NATIVE and only available state, is immune to Ground- you cannot say it is such a type and THEN say it has this ability- it doesn't turn it's ability off so you can see it's type- again, negating abilities is an inbattle effect. You take it's type and ability all in one- they are all integral to a pokemon- I don't get how you chalk it ALL up to type match ups- by and large, if there was a species of pokemon, say, a Heatmor- bred them generations entirely in captivity with NO interaction with anything else- even it's rival Durant. It's lack of exposure to anything won't stop it's body being able to produce flame and have flame tongue- it is just like that. Observing an Eelektross for the first time, in captivity- it would be found to have NO weakness to Ground? So in that case, how could they say it was how would they classify it? What- gastro acid it, and say 'oh look it is weak to just Ground, must be an Electric type' because how that is natural and integral to a pokemon, I don't know =| It is thus, Eelektross' electric abilities that are what we would observe and say, it is an Electric type- who contrarily- is not affected by Ground moves or weak to them like other Electric types who are pure Electric.

Pokemon with more than one possible Ability can only have one of them though- it is as inherent to THAT pokemon as it's type- all at once, it forms a pokemon- not this then this then this- it has it's type/ability etc. all at once- thus if it's match ups don't.... [LOL] match up- then what???

 

[Ditto24]

LOVE this get me battle properties, are thus, themselves synthetic- so they do not define a pokemon in it's native state =|



A finite number of types is not a given, you are arguing that there was 17 types there to be named, observed and thus be put onto your list of ????? Where as the groupings themselves are almost fallacious- what constitutes the difference between type is hard to define at times- like some aspects of Rock and Ground type characteristics- yet there is enough of a difference to separate them out based on Rock dealing with hardened, non metallic minerals whereas the Ground is more to do with granular sediment and subterranean forces.

The whole concept of type and typings is based on how similiar/dissimiliar pokemon are to each other in appearance/habitat/abilities/composition/temperemant/lineage etc. NOT it's relationship to other types of elements- that comes as a result of the pokemon itself being of type- because the 'type' is the notion of their being enough of a similiarity between particular moves/pokemon to give them an arbitrary- 'type'- that categorizes them- similiar too, albeit different to as well, the notion of taxons in reality. You are stating that the concept of types is a clear cut given whereas it isn't and they aren't.



I have not said ignoire them; on the contrary it IS important, BUT- when a pokemon is typed- you're saying Pikachu's ability to generate Electricity is the primary reason it is classified as an Electric type? Look at it and Eelektross- as found in nature, Eelektross is immune to Ground, thus has NO observable weaknesses BUT it is not a Flying type- the type that is immune to Ground. So Pikachu AND Eelektross are both Electric, but only one is weak to Ground? By your logic dude, they would cease to have the same, pure typing- Electric. So what is the link between them? Their abilities relating to Electricity (as it is presented in pokeworld) NOT their weakness to Ground.

I've GOT it!

Type Match ups are an EMERGENT property:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergent_properties#Emergent_properties_and_processes

They emerge from the pokemon's physiology, abilities etc- Oddish isn't weak a Grass/Poison type because it is weak to x types- it is a Grass/Poison type because it is flora able to produce toxic dust as it's defining traits, those they dominate it's existance- also the battle properties of a type aren't the same as it outside of battle as Enodlise said =| not ever leaf is sharp enough to cut, unlike the move Razor Leaf =|

Oddish's type match ups EMERGE from it's behavioral/physiological/magical/pokelogical adaptations etc. Hence how Eelektross is an Electric type that is, by it's native state, NOT weak to Ground- yet it is clearly Electric =| get me?

See? all of this I thought was blatantly obvious. A pokemons type HAS to be relevant to what it looks like. Granted some more look like the type than others, it makes thing looks diverse. Oddish is a plant Grass, it can also produce poison/toxins Grass/Posion. So because thats its type, it is weak to Fire etc.

I don't get why this is wrong at all.

 

[dman_dustin]

The water that the Stunfisk is in isn't actively trying to exploit the Stunfisk's weakness by using the water in an offensive manner. In a sense, I'm "weak" to knives because they can kill me, but simply holding one will not affect me in any harmful way. I have to be stabbed or cut with one in order for that to happen.

Isn't that my point?

Pokemon are only affected in regards to offensive/defensive properties.

Unless of course you have Charmander who can die in the rain. And I'm sure immersing yourself in water like Stunfisk as well as Charmander is different than just having water fall on you, or holding something.

No offense, your argument is jumping from real world to pokemon world to anime just for the benefit of some of your points, I've only ever referred to ingame, which is what you posted as the thread title.

I'm just saying, after all how can we argue in-universe without using rea life examples.

You have honestly surprised me by saying that Charmander having distinct Fire affiliations has nothing to do with it being Fire, I don't understand how you can just turn around and refuse this possibility.

Because it is merely a feature. My cellphone has a calculator, doesn't change the fact that it is a cellphone, and not a calculator. Likewise my calculator might be able to play games, but it is a calculator not a gaming device. Like my gaming device that can make phone calls doesn't make it not a gaming device.

So maybe you can argue, that Charmander having a fiery tail is enough to call it a fire type, but that doesn't make any sense. After all Skuntank can learn flamethrower. All Pokemon can learn toxic (well almost all Pokemon).

You are saying that Pikachu is only weak to Ground and therefor is Electric. That statement is correct, I never said it wasn't. But you are not giving me the reason of why it is. You just give me the same answer but in a different order. Pikachu hates Earthquake, we agree on this, so is Pikachu only an Electric type when Earthquake hits or is it Electric at the very second the move is used?? Pokemon aren't typeless until an attack hits them. Your theory only proves their typing, you're not giving me the reason for their typing.

It's really hard to know EXACTLY what happened.

But I suppose they named certain elements just because.

Oh this move is electric because it displays properties similar to lightining.

Or this attack shares properties with nature, therefore we'll call it grass.

I'm not arguing that moves themselves weren't named something because of some property.

However we are talking about an organism here, which as far I'm concerned is typeless until the elements that science have named have affected or not affected in some fashion or another.

Again, Rattata can use ice beam. Octillery can use a whole crap load of different type moves. Some Pokemon barely use moves of their type. And some Pokemon are weird types, like Azurill as opposed to water types like it's evolution.

If you ignore the relationship between the elements and types, there is no reason why some this is. Other than they have properties/elements/features that don't define their type, just what they are capable of.

Charmander for example, has a fire tail, because there is some liquid of some kind (just speculating), and it's exposed to air, causing a flame. That is a feature, a property of Charmander, doesn't automatically make it a fire type. Fire is a fire type, a Pokemon cannot be a specific type, without being affected by other elements.

A Bulbsaur being weaker in a snowstorm than Snorunt, doesn't automatically mean Bulbasaur is a grass type. Because one there are types weak against the ice element, what about those, why not classify it as those.

Or is Bulbasaur weak against the cold, because it's own body is vulnerable to a cold.

Just think of a human. And make it a Pokemon. Humans are very vulnerable. There are vulnerable to bullets, and bullets are usually made of metal (outside of the weird ones), the only types that are weak at this moment of metal objects are ice and rock. So would a human turned Pokemon be classified as a rock/ice. Oh but wait, people can drown. Okay so it is a rock type. But oh no, people can die from being burned. Illogical, illogical.

In that case, wouldn't a human turned Pokemon get a new type, where because it is weak to almost any element it would be something different.

And likewise Pikachu resists steel, but don't you think shooting Pikachu or stabbing it is going to hurt.

Or how about an electric/fire rodent, don't think it's 1/4 resistant to steel would make it hard to see it being able to be stabbed and shot to death even though I'm sure it would take some serious damage.

Wow, I kind of lost track of my argument. But it's there.

Features/Properties/Elements of an organism does not by itself define it's type, it has to be the relationship it has with other types.

Because I'm sure because Rattata can use electric attacks, it means it can conduct electricity, but guess what, it's not an electric type.

And almost all if not all Pokemon can learn normal type moves, maybe even for some a healthy amount, but they aren't all classified as normal.

In that sense you have to look past the immediate features/properties of the Pokemon, and use a different method of defining their types.

Because a Pokemon being able to produce electricity, being able to breath fire, or being able cause a massive tidal wave of water does not make it such type. Living in an environment does not make it a certain type.

It can only be a certain type BECAUSE of it's relationship with the other types.

Only one type is currently completely immune to normal types. And that is Ghost types.

And Normal types are only immune to ghost types.

So if you run into a normal/ghost, that Pokemon could only be classified as such because it's immune to normal/ghost/fighting and only weak against dark types.

Because if you have a Pokemon and you attack a new Pokemon, and you have hyper beam, shadow ball, mach punch, and dark pulse. If the Pokemon is only affected by dark pulse, then you have to classify the Pokemon as a normal/ghost Pokemon.

Unless it's also weak against fire types. In that instance, then you're going to have to create a brand new type. Because it clearly has a relationship with types, that current knowable types DO NOT share the traits of this weird Pokemon. Thus a new type has to be made in those instances.

A Brand new type immune to ghost/fighting/normal but weak against Dark and Fire, and who knows what else. Because clearly the properties of this brand new Pokemon is something new. Although I suppose you could argue that it just has an ability that makes it weak to fire as well, but that doesn't seem likely at all nor would that make any sense. It would then have to be a new type altogether.

Then perhaps, you'd have to rethink about the moves that exist now, did any of them display any weird properties that at the time scientists could not explain.

So while sure, moves and elements of moves can be classified such as because of what they are and their various properties.

The same cannot be said about an organism, that can display mean properties but not be of that type. I think Togepi can produce toxins or whatever in its spike, but it isn't a poison type.

Therefore there has to be something else to use as a guide.

What if you did classify Charmander as a fire type SOLELY because it has a fire tail. What if it's weak to ice beam, or what if it's immune to ghost type moves, what then? Can you still say Charmander is a fire type even then.

Mate, you've slipped up here. A pokemon exists as it is- all at once- not a then b then c etc. Eelektross in it's NATIVE and only available state, is immune to Ground- you cannot say it is such a type and THEN say it has this ability- it doesn't turn it's ability off so you can see it's type- again, negating abilities is an inbattle effect. You take it's type and ability all in one- they are all integral to a pokemon- I don't get how you chalk it ALL up to type match ups- by and large, if there was a species of pokemon, say, a Heatmor- bred them generations entirely in captivity with NO interaction with anything else- even it's rival Durant. It's lack of exposure to anything won't stop it's body being able to produce flame and have flame tongue- it is just like that. Observing an Eelektross for the first time, in captivity- it would be found to have NO weakness to Ground? So in that case, how could they say it was how would they classify it? What- gastro acid it, and say 'oh look it is weak to just Ground, must be an Electric type' because how that is natural and integral to a pokemon, I don't know =| It is thus, Eelektross' electric abilities that are what we would observe and say, it is an Electric type- who contrarily- is not affected by Ground moves or weak to them like other Electric types who are pure Electric.

Pokemon with more than one possible Ability can only have one of them though- it is as inherent to THAT pokemon as it's type- all at once, it forms a pokemon- not this then this then this- it has it's type/ability etc. all at once- thus if it's match ups don't.... [LOL] match up- then what???

Very very flawed.

Humans did not just start out building computers, did not start out being able to math. And even now some humans can't or are mostly unable to.

Hell some people can be illiterate. Reading and writing is an ability, a learned ability. As far as I'm concerned most abilities in Pokemon came to arise from a need. That's how evolution works doesn't it.

Survival of the fittest. I'm pretty sure some natural abilities came as a result of evolution.

There's no reason why Tynamo would have levitate if it didn't come from a need to be immune to its one type, ground, maybe in-universe, Tynamo was highly affected by ground types, and was close to death and therefore learned to levitate for survival.

It doesn't change the fact that you remove that ability it's weak to ground types. Having that ability does not mean it is inherently immune to ground types. Because there's no logic in being able to turn off a natural reaction.

Levitate is comparable to a human walking.

Being weak to ground types is comparable to how your body works. I'm sure in rare instances if the circumstances are right, a grass type will not be as affected by fire. Like how some medical condition can cause your body functions to fail. Although I used the wrong analogy, I'm sure in the right circumstance a normal grass type will be greatly affected by water.

 

[Ditto24]

Ofcourse its a feature, Charmander having fire on it is a pretty obvious reason it's Fire. Again all your theory does is prove a pokemons typing, you are not telling me why a pokemon is a certain type. Your phone is a phone, as you said, all these other applications are like tidbits, kinda like charmander learning Metal Claw is a tid bit.

Its still primarily Fire, so thats its type.

Tell me what Sylveon is based on your theory. Coz it isn't typeless until you discover what it is, you just discover what type it is....

 

[dman_dustin]

Tell me what Sylveon is based on your theory.

Based on my theory?

Hmm, it resists dragon types, but is weak against poison (speaking hypothetically),

No type exists, nor a combination of abilities and types makes that possible. Because steel types are immune to poison types, and they are only thing that resists dragon type moves, but no ability, makes a Pokemon vulnerable to poison types.

Okay let's say it is a steel type, but has an ability that negates its own immunity of poison.

Crap, it's also weak against steel types? I can't win here.

Well no ability exists ever that would ever make a Pokemon be weak against poison and steel, no logic could ever be used for that.

Hmm, I guess we have no choice, it's got to be something new. It's a new type.

What type would be good, how about Fairy type? Since it did use a weird move that neither had the properties of an ice or dragon type but hurt that dragon type over there. Must clearly be a new type.

Its still primarily Fire, so thats its type.

And if Charmander was immune to ghosts and fighting type moves?

Coz it isn't typeless until you discover what it is, you just discover what type it is....

That doesn't make any sense at all.

You can't discover what type it is until you define the types.

 

[Ditto24]

Based on my theory?

Hmm, it resists dragon types, but is weak against poison (speaking hypothetically),

No type exists, nor a combination of abilities and types makes that possible. Because steel types are immune to poison types, and they are only thing that resists dragon type moves, but no ability, makes a Pokemon vulnerable to poison types.

Okay let's say it is a steel type, but has an ability that negates its own immunity of poison.

Crap, it's also weak against steel types? I can't win here.

Well no ability exists ever that would ever make a Pokemon be weak against poison and steel, no logic could ever be used for that.

Hmm, I guess we have no choice, it's got to be something new. It's a new type.

What type would be good, how about Fairy type? Since it did use a weird move that neither had the properties of an ice or dragon type. Must clearly be a new type.

See that is fine, but did Sylveon have characteristics that made all of that true before you attacked it with anything? Or did it magically just gain a new type after it was attacked by everything? It has to already have a type. So because of this type, thats why stuff effects it?

Are you honestly saying Oddish is only Grass coz it is weak to Fire? It has nothing to do with it being a plant?

 

[Ditto24]

And if Charmander was immune to ghosts and fighting type moves?



That doesn't make any sense at all.

You can't discover what type it is until you define the types.

But Charmander doesn't have traits that make it Normal, so Fighting and Ghost moves don't come into it.

If I cant discover what type a pokemon is, then why can you discover what type a move is??

 

[dman_dustin]

See that is fine, but did Sylveon have characteristics that made all of that true before you attacked it with anything? Or did it magically just gain a new type after it was attacked by everything? It has to already have a type. So because of this type, thats why stuff effects it?

You can't know about these properties until you define them until you observe them.

From that other argument in the dex specualtion. Classification is a man made invention.

Things just exist, they exist with these properties, but until you define them, of course they are unknown.

Are you honestly saying Oddish is only Grass coz it is weak to Fire? It has nothing to do with it being a plant?

No I'm saying it is classified as a grass and poison type because it is vulnerable to fire/psychic/flying types while resisting water and ground, electric types.

I'm not saying it is a grass and poison type because of those advantages and disadvantages. I'm saying it's CLASSIFIED as those types because of those relationships with those types.

It being a plant is a property, it being able to use energy ball is a property, Properties do not define types. Classification through observation is what gives those types meaning.

A grass type does not mean anything if it's not weak against fire/flying/ice.

What about a secondary type, well then same thing, it is not a dual type if it's not weak to those things.

What about an ability?

Gastro Acid, still cannot be classified as a grass type just because it is a plant or because it looks like a plant. If it's relationship is TOO different than any possible combination, and it's weak to something it should be neutral against, it has to be something else. It cannot be a grass type at all. It cannot be CLASSIFIED as a grass type, if it doesn't share the relationship with those specific types with a pure grass or even a dual grass of a different type. What if it resists 1/4 fire types despite being plant like and other properties that make it impossible for it to be merely a combination of types and one ability?

But Charmander doesn't have traits that make it Normal, so Fighting and Ghost moves don't come into it

I was speaking hypothetically.

If I cant discover what type a pokemon is, then why can you discover what type a move is??

Because moves are not living organisms. Outside of the duality of a moves possible being two different types which I'm sure that's something completely different. Moves don't share as many features as an organism.

Thunderbolt cannot make plants grow. Thunderbolt can power up a generator, thunderbolt cannot scratch you, it cannot fly, it can hurt you and some other Pokemon. That's why a move can be classified just on the basis of its property.

A thunderbolt attack is electric based therefore it can be the electric type.

The first Rattata you see always uses thunderbolt, it's the only attack it ever uses. Will you on the basis of that alone classify it as an electric type. Or are you going to wait until additional evidence points to it just being able to discharge electricity while not of an electric type.

 

[Ditto24]

But a pokemon HAS to be/have a type for damage calculation to happen. If they didn't have types then damage would be the same for every single pokemon.

Why do you know what type a move is through classification but I'm not allowed to know a pokemons type through classification?

If I'm not allowed to know what's an Electric type, why can you know what an Electric type move is?

The first Rattata you see always uses thunderbolt, it's the only attack it ever uses. Will you on the basis of that alone classify it as an electric type. Or are you going to wait until additional evidence points to it just being able to discharge electricity while not of an electric type

Ofcourse you wouldn't but a pokemon like rattata has affinities that link it more to Normal than electricty.

You say how thing can't exist without language to explain it but that is wrong. Water extinguished Fire correct? Even without language, the actual process of that still happens, you may not explain it, but the actuall process of the water putting the fire out is absolute.

You are STILL just proving a pokemons type and not the reason they are that type...

 

[dman_dustin]

But a pokemon HAS to be/have a type for damage calculation to happen. If they didn't have types then damage would be the same for every single pokemon.

Of course but that doesn't make it's type any more known.

I'm not saying they don't have types.

I am saying their types are unknown.

Unknown does not equal non existent.

Why do you know what type a move is through classification but I'm not allowed to know a pokemons type through classification?

If I'm not allowed to know what's an Electric type, why can you know what an Electric type move is?

Edited my previous post.

\
You are STILL just proving a pokemons type and not the reason they are that type...

They are that type because scientists have defined what being that type means.

Sure water puts out fire. And you can see it.

But all it is. ??? extinguishes ??? even ignoring that extinguish wouldn't be there either.

Humans define what water is but it still exists, we define what extinguish means but the action is there, we define what fire is but it exists.

Likewise with Pokemon. A Pokemon has no known type until through observation it is defined as such type.

If a plant looking creature ordinarily called a grass type through observation cannot be classified as a grass type, then it's not a grass type just becuase it's a plant, well I guess it could be a dual type or ability, but again it requires more observation to define what type it is.

 

[Ditto24]

Of course but that doesn't make it's type any more known.

I'm not saying they don't have types.

I am saying their types are unknown.

Unknown does not equal non existent.




Edited my previous post.

I know they are unknown but they have them before any attack ever hits them, a pokemon hatched from an egg has types, before it ever gets hit by something. It's the same with all these new pokemon getting revealed.

Clauncher can use alot of Water attacks, its a water based animal, so it is Water. because this pokemon is Water... it is weak to Electric and Grass.

Just coz a pokemon is weak to something doesn't make the type. it does not work like that.

 

[dman_dustin]

I know they are unknown but they have them before any attack ever hits them, a pokemon hatched from an egg has types, before it ever gets hit by something. It's the same with all these new pokemon getting revealed.

Clauncher can use alot of Water attacks, its a water based animal, so it is Water. because this pokemon is Water... it is weak to Electric and Grass.

Just coz a pokemon is weak to something doesn't make the type. it does not work like that.

Edited my post.

Just because it look like plant, uses lots of grass type moves, doesn't automatically mean it is a grass type, especially if it doesn't share the mutually exclusive relationships that grass types have with the other types.

A dual type or an ability might be able to explain some things away BUT not if there's too many differences. Like being immune to poison, weak against dragon, and weak against rock while all having a plant motif.

Sudowoodo. Best example.

It looks like a tree, acts like a tree, but is not a grass type. It's a rock type specifically because it hates water, something grass types don't share. And it probably hates fighting and grass type moves, etc, etc, etc.

Complete observation proves that Sudowoodo is not a grass type, even though it mimics and acts like one.

 

[Ditto24]

Well how would scientists have realised that a pokemon can be dual typed? they would possibly give it a new type coz it doesn't match anything else... which is what you said about Fairy...

While you are right in saying that a pokemons classification is man made. the type chart is not, its all natural selection and completely out of our hands. You talk as if we created everything about pokemon. We didnt do something that means Water extinguishes Fire. But anyone would know that a Clauncher being Water would have a better chance against a Charmander.

You said youself that pokemon aren't aware that they are classified as such types, but certain types all hang around together and has been seen ingame and anime. Electrics stick together, Water types stick together, their types are already predetermined. We only give it a name to help it make sense. But pokemon still understand, water pokemon naturally don't like elctricity. Fire types don't like Water. How they are effected has nothing to do with what we say, which is what you're arguing.

We just give them names, the classifications aren't made up by us, Oddish and Bellsprout are both plants and have other affiliations that group them in what we would call 'Grass'.