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Iris VS Clair! The Road to Dragon Master! (BWDASP2)

Discussion in 'Pokémon Black & White - Adventures in Unova' started by Serebii, Mar 27, 2014.

  1. Pokegirl Fan~

    Pokegirl Fan~ Rei Claus

    I thought that this was a great episode. I thought the Battle was good and I liked that Iris got a Gible. Now I can't wait to see her come back in XY, and hopefully beat Ash or call him a kid again, before losing to Serena xD
    10/10
     
  2. Janovy

    Janovy Banned

    You are completely ignoring the facts that:

    1) Iris and Dragonite are not nearly as close and have enough experience battling together like Iris and Excadrill.
    2) Dragonite STILL didn't get over its issues and is still developing unlike Excadrill who was fully developed at the point it beat Pikachu.
    3) Claire is freaking gym leader and obviously has more experience over Iris.

    Iris' win over Ash was natural because Excadrill was fully developed, fully obedient, had tons of more experience over Dragonite as well as 99 victories and the most obvious thing, the type advantage. It should be noted that Pikachu actually put up a rather good fight versus Excadrill given the odds so I have no idea what the hell you're complaining about.
     
  3. Pikachu52

    Pikachu52 Well-Known Member

    This episode proves Ash and Iris are not equally skilled. This is not only the second Gym Leader Iris has faced and lost to quite easily, but also one Ash had beaten previously. That on top of the fact he had already beaten four regions before that battle. Wha does Iris have?

    I comprehend it perfectly. With or without disadvantage gyarados is still a very powerful Pokémon. In any case the fact that Ash beat Clair using Charizard who was at a disadvantage against it's opponent further illustrates that Ash is the better trainer given Iris couldn't win despite Druddigon and Dragonite being a fairly even match up.

    Exadrill hadn't been listening to Iris until a few episodes prior to this one and wasn't used in an actual battle until BW042. It had pretty much the same closeness at that point than Dragonite did at this one.

    Possibly but not necessarily deservingly so. Dragonite was obeying Iris through most of the episode N and Declore Island arch and battled for her against Team Rocket in the two Meloetta episodes. That it ignored her here seems relatively inconsistent.

    Ash not only went through four regions earning every single badge and reaching top 8 in most league conferences prior to coming to Unova but he also beat THIS GYM LEADER. He CLEARLY has more experience over Iris.

    The 99 wins are meaningless. They were in the same competition over and over with the same set of relatively weak trainers. Iris has now lost to two gym leaders. Ash and beaten 39 by that point in the anime along with the entire battle frontier and the Orange league - Iris's achievements pale in comparison. If a trainer can't beat a gym leader they clearly aren't that good. Pikachu may have put up a good fight - I'm not denying it. The point is HE SHOULD HAVE WON. That is what I am complaining about. Excadrill being fully developed is very questionable - he'd been out of practice for a long time prior to that battle, it was his first serious battle since Drayden, It only tied with Georgia's Beartic previously despite Georgia not being very good and Excadrill having a massive advantage. Iris's victory at that tournament was pure plot amour for no reason - It wasn't justified, necessary or even the best result. She did not deserve to win - I'm surprised the Ash vs Iris battle is so defended considering the wrap the Cameron battle got for the same reasons
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2016
  4. Grey Wind

    Grey Wind Only rescues maidens

    How could Pikachu have defeated Excadrill? It was immune to two of its attacks and resisted the other two, and had two attacks that were super effective against Pikachu. Of course it was going to win.

    Also, I don't see the problem with Iris losing here. Just because she defeated Ash in one battle doesn't mean she can defeat any opponent he's ever faced.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2016
  5. Lord Trollbias

    Lord Trollbias Y'all Salty Bishes

    Imagine actually being bothered because a Pokemon with a type immunity to Pikachu's most powerful attacks and resists the other 2, owned by a competent trainer who went on a 99 win streak with said Pokemon I might add beat Pikachu. Imagine actually complaining about that. Pikachu winning in that scenario would have been PIS of the highest order. Doesn't even compare to a Dragonite losing to Druddigon.
    A>B; B>C therefor A>C logic does not apply in the anime either.
     
  6. U.N. Owen

    U.N. Owen In Brightest Day, In Blackest Night ...

    Establish mechanics are established mechanics. With two moves that don't affect Excadrill and two that are resisted to death, it was no surprise Pikachu lost. I watched the entire battle again and I don't see the plot armor. Out of practice means nothing to the established mechanics. Ash had no means other than brute force. Now, had this been Hoenn or Sinnoh level Ash, I'd see a valid argument, but this is Unova Ash, the same fool that lost to a Panpour with a type advantage. You can't pay attention to the anime as a whole, only as a region because continuity is loose.

    Heck, even the games acknowledge how much of a competitive battling nightmare dealing with Excadrill would be.

    As for Cameron, we knew Iris had an Excadrill and had a functioning brain. Cameron was the worst qualities of Ash on steroids.
     
  7. Pikachu52

    Pikachu52 Well-Known Member

    She only got to the final because Axew learned outrage at the last moment and then NEVER used that move again and because Emolga decided to start listening to her only at it's first battle in that competition. The fact that she owned Excadrill too - there was no obvious reason for that choice given she's supposed to be a dragon type trainer. Dribbler are not native to the part of the Unova region where the Village of Dragons is supposed to be and Excadrill could have been showcased by Clay. Pikachu could also easily dodged that final move too so yeah plot amour.

    Brute force has worked in the past and COULD AND SHOULD have worked here. Pikachu has already tied to a latios and beaten a regice. Excadrill isn't a strtech. Hoenn or Sinnoh level Ash is the same Ash so the argument is valid. The Panpour battle was a disgrace too. Pikachu's under powering was the worst aspect of the BW series. I'd understand the argument if it was any Pokémon other than Pikachu who is Ash's strongest and therefore should win the vast majority of his battles (like he has done in XY where the losses can be counted on one hand).

    For having a functioning brain Iris lost to two gym leaders. Cameron beat 8 and showed he was competent in battle. Iris before this competition could not get either Emolga or Excadrill to listen to her and did next to no training with Axew to the point of avoiding battling with it - Ash shouldn't loose to someone like that and not with his best Pokémon

    No. Iris is not a competent trainer is the point. Those 99 wins are meaningless given she couldn't beat an actual Gym leader (not a champion or member of the elite four). Ash had beaten 39 plus the orange league and the battle frontier. I'm still surprised that is defended by the same persons who condemn the Cameron battle.

    Yes it does because it proves my point that she clearly wasn't worthy of winning that battle in the first place, if she can't actually defeat a gym leader her opponent had already faced and beaten.

    People complain about a lot of things in this program. The Ash vs Cameron battle was poorly received and it was much better than this rubbish (and I wasn't a fan of that one either).

    YES it did is the point. Same Pikachu that beat a leader's Onix, a Latios and a Regice. Pikachu had every place to beat Excadrill and Ash should have beaten Iris.

    What exactly is the point of this post - provocation. You haven't exactly said why you feel that way. Anyway good for you mate. You can cherish it all you like, but I don't see why people bother with Pokémon if they don't like or won't support Pikachu. He's only the hero of the series and the mascot of the franchise. It would be like being a fan of Star Wars and being disappointed that Palpatine didn't crush the Rebel Alliance. And Pikachu's a mouse not a rat. Plus I crush is the wrong word. It was a close victory at best.

    In any case the poor portrayal of Pikachu has thankfully been reversed in XY. The "rat" has been the hero of three gym battles and has only lost three battles two of which he won upon rematch. At the end of the day Pikachu prevails as the show's main character while Iris and Excadrill are confined to the realm of re-runs and a possible XY cameo appearance. There's unlikely to be an anime without Pikachu and he's likely to get many more victories in XY.

    As for how much you like Iris episodes - I think you miss my point. Iris as a character is not the problem. The problem was the battle and the way the arch was written not the character. Iris using a Pokémon that had not had many battles prior to that battle, who only got the final because of Axew spamming outrage, and whom won against a trainer with clearly more experience than she had using his first and most experience Pokémon when that Pokémon needed a major win at this point is the problem. That in addition to the fact that Iris's calling ash a kid was always unfair and Ash should have been given the opportunity to prove he was in fact highly skilled and the fact there was no rematch and Ash didn't win any of the other tournaments. Considering how he managed to win battles in Sinnoh the battle showed a lack of creativity on the writers part. There are plenty of ways Ash could have won it. Even creating that match up in the first place is odd given the writers tend to avoid such an uneven match up for important battles. That is not only inconsistent writing but it's unfair to your main protagonist.

    I thought Iris was a good character but as much as you like her you can't pretend that episode was anything other than terrible writing.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2016
  8. phanpycross

    phanpycross God-king

    Two of the best gym leaders in the entire anime, One which Ash only beat using his outside-sourced Charizard, and his OP snorlax. The other one hasnt even lost a single battle off-screen, but I can ee without a shadow of doubt that Cameron could get absolutely demolished by; Alongside Ash.

    And Iris got excadrill for the same reason Misty got Togepi; markedability.

    Stop being so whiny because your inconsistant little mouse couldnt beat an opponent it never had any place beating in the first place.
     
  9. Afrodisiac

    Afrodisiac break up w yo gf, im bored

    I will always cherish the moment Excadrill crushed that rat. I'm so glad it was real and not just part of my fantasies or biased pokephillic fanfics!

    Every Iris episode gets a 10/10 from me btw, this one is no exception.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2016
  10. Pokegirl Fan~

    Pokegirl Fan~ Rei Claus

    Agreed. It honestly would have been a huge DEM if Pikachu beat Excadrill imo.

    Anyways I hope that when Iris returns, that the Gible that she got from this episode will hopefully have evolved into Gabite
     
  11. Lord Trollbias

    Lord Trollbias Y'all Salty Bishes

    We've already seen and been given excellent rationale as to why Pikachu's loss was justified so I'll just be here waiting for an explanation as to HOW Pikachu could reasonably beat Excadrill. No ********, no bias. How Pikachu with an arsenal of Iron Tail and Quick Attack would have won? Since you're so convinced that's what should happen surely you'd have a reasonable scenario prepared. And "brute force" is not an answer as he's not just going to be attacking without reply either.
     
  12. U.N. Owen

    U.N. Owen In Brightest Day, In Blackest Night ...

    I don't understand your argument because you tend to forget that the most over powered pokemon can lose because of bad direction. Which one of Ash's many tricks did he pull in either of those battles? Any thunder armor or counter shield? It's just the rules of the game (both anime logic and game logic) bad direction can ruin a clear win. Ash's bad direction ruined his victory that is and was the stable of Best Wishes.
     
  13. Pikachu52

    Pikachu52 Well-Known Member

    It's not really my job to write battle scenes but are a few different ways Pikachu could have won. Iron tail, combining iron tail with another move, using the counter shield technique from Sinnoh to avoid the last hit. It's perfectly possible to conceive it. Possibly Ash using a different Pokémon and having used Pikachu earlier or Iris not even getting to the finals. A number of other scenario's were possible - what we we're given was rubbish. The rationale is not excellent. Once again people are quick to defend this and condemn the Unova league despite the fact both tournament archs suffer from the same problems.

    Not at all. Excadrille's power is questionable and Pikachu had already shown he could beat Latios and Regice. Even if it would have DEM a different scenario could and probably should have been devised. Iris's Axew beating Golette was DEM as was Emolga beating Swak. The entire tournament was poorly written. Iris should not have beaten Ash - And I think this is off topic given there's already a thread for that episode - I was only making a comparison at first.

    Anyway it's more or less cannon in Pokémon now that Pokémon that are very strong type match ups aren't really an issue for them - This point was made directly in Pokémon Super Mystery Dungeon by Buizel for example. Pikachu can take on an win against legendardies. Excadrill lost to the same GYM LEADER twice and eventually to Stephan's Swak.

    I personally consider it the worst battle/episode of the entire anime and the most unfair result ever. Others feel the same way about the Unova league. At at least with Viola's surkit Pikachu won the rematch, was the hero of that gym battle and went on to be the hero of two other gym battles and only had three losses during the XY series.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2016
  14. Navin

    Navin MALDREAD

    Meh, it's Pikachu guys. The rat can literally slay a Latios one day, and die to a Surskit the next. Losing to Iris' Excadrill was hardly his worst loss anyway. He probably could have murdered Excadrill in the same fight the next day.
     
  15. Lord Trollbias

    Lord Trollbias Y'all Salty Bishes

    Counter-Shield, the move Pikachu utilizes with THUNDERBOLT would have affected Excadrill? Only move Iron Tail can be combined with that'd work is Quick Attack. A slightly faster Iron Tail is not going to be a battle changer. Basically there is nothing in Pikachu's offense that could get the job done as shown in the battle. Pikachu did damage but with his limited offence it was not enough. And we're discussing Pikachu vs. Excadrill so no Iris using another Pokemon or Iris not making it is not a viable solution.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2016
  16. Janovy

    Janovy Banned

    Pikachu actually did fairly well against Excadrill given the odds. It's not like Excadrill dominated the battle, Pikachu landed some pretty solid hits.
     
  17. U.N. Owen

    U.N. Owen In Brightest Day, In Blackest Night ...

    The whole series suffers from Ash Ketchum's bad direction.

    You can over power any character in any game or piece of literature, but bad direction usually does the character in. The fault lies with Ash's inability to direct in the Unova series. He lost to a Panpour because he can't direct.
     
  18. phanpycross

    phanpycross God-king

    I dont even get it; why focus on an excadrill when Pikachu has lost to pokemon like Panpoar and f*cking Magikarp of all things.

    Lets not BAWWW about BW when none of the "Ashes" would have won that battle.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2016
  19. Afrodisiac

    Afrodisiac break up w yo gf, im bored

    No offense, but you hate Dawn's Buneary, Misty, Serena, Ash's Frog, probably Serena's Sylveon too if it gets along with Pikachu too much (I just read your bio from the link in your sig), basically anything and anyone whose bond with Ash or Pikachu defies your shipping desires. And that's ok, who am I to judge anyone's fetishes?

    But at the end of the day you may argue all you want and bring seemingly logical and unbiased arguments for this topic but ultimately comes off as immature whining and provocation against anyone who points out the clear logic in canon anime events/facts that didn't fulfill your expectations. And you go on and on and on, I guess who's provoking who?
     
  20. Pikachu52

    Pikachu52 Well-Known Member

    Counter-Shield's defensive so it could have been used to deflect another move is my point. There are plenty of ways Pikachu could have beaten Excadrill. Iron tail by itself could have worked and has in the past. Even Ash managed to defeat a ryhorn with an electric type move by aiming for the horn in the first series. And I wasn't limiting my criticism to how that particular battle played out but to it's context as a whole so it is relevant to suggest a different scenario could have been devised. Given Excadrill's not a dragon type it's hard to see what it was going with Iris.

    Serena I dislike because of the poor character development she had for a large number of episode at the beginning of XY and some of her personality felt like it was a stereotypical. I like her a bit better know since she's got more character development. Buneary's I don't really like because the design is supposed to be cute, but isn't really. I liked Dawn's Buneary on the whole though. Frogadire isn't cute and seems a poor replacement for Oshawott so it doesn't do anything for me, but I never said I hated. I'll admit I don't like the idea of Ash-Greninja because it feels like a Clayton's mega evolution but I'll reserve judgment until it makes it appears in the dub. Misty I have nothing against and I don't think i've reviewed any of her episodes here. I really like Serena's Eevee and the Eevee species as a whole - I't one of my favourite Pokémon. Not sure what you point it is. A lot of people have shipping desires and views about who should win what battle.

    I'm not provoking anyone. I usually respond when people respond to me. Most of my arguments are logical and unbiased as you've said. All I'm doing is criticising. A lot of people criticise TV, film and literature and many express unhappiness if events/facts don't fulfill expectations. The Unova league and the Ash vs Cameron battle has received much negative criticism as did the Declore Island arch and BW as a whole - it's no different to what I'm doing here. In fact most people disagreeing with me here have made those criticisms. And that's good. Criticising an item of popular media for being badly written (which it was) is not whining. Film and literature critics do that all the time - the ABC used to devote 26 minutes to doing so every week.

    I didn't like Panpour either - that battle was even worse but this isn't the place to comment on it. I thought Pikachu's portrayal in BW was poor and prefer the way he's been showcased in XY.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2016

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