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Is Ash-Greninja a plot hole?

Discussion in 'Pokémon Animé Discussion' started by FrozTKnight, Mar 22, 2018.

  1. FrozTKnight

    FrozTKnight Will ORA ORA ORA you

    Ok I'll be honest upfront, I am don't like Ash-Greninja even though I like Greninja. I don't hate it but I still not a fan.

    So I made sure to research the transformation from what they have mentioned in the anime.

    So the main features of the transformation is that

    It appeared hundred years ago
    Activates when a trainer and Pokemon has a strong mutual trust.
    And trainer and Pokemon are in sync when transformed so share pain

    I have problems with this when fitting it into the story and world of Pokemon with the lore given. First problem is...

    1) Between the hundered years when the first Greninja achieved the transformation and Ash-Greninja there have been no other trainer has had a mutual trust with their Pokemon to trigger this transformation? I would call BS on this because through all the seasons of Pokemon we have seen several Pokemon and trainers having similar close bonds to their partners like Ash. At
    least there should a few instances of this transformation being attained within that 100 year gap since the Pokemon world is extremely large.

    2) So they haven't given any evidence to suggest the transform is limited to only Greninja. So the question rises why didn't this Ash-Pokemon activate before? He has had I feel more stronger bond with Pikachu, Charizard and Infernape yet they didn't achieve the form or is the anime telling me those bonds weren't strong as Greninja's before those 3 went through hell with Ash even more than Greninja. And if they did want it be exclusive to Greninja, it pretty stupid since they didn't explain what makes Greninja as a Pokemon special for it be the only have the transformation. Mega Pokemon atleast have the explanation of needing the mega stone.

    3) So the "pain sharing" thing is distracting but its more of a nitpick but does Greninja being in the form constantly mean whenever it get hurt Ash, no matter where he is will feel it? I mean I know they have to nerf it somehow but atleast make it something that wouldn't create a plot hole. Heck the DBZ explanation of the transformation tiring out the Pokemon more quickly for the boosted power would be better.

    If anyone has an explanation I am open to being corrected about these points not being plotholes
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2018
  2. satopi

    satopi All hail Satomine Night!

    I'm not sure about it being a plothole but it's another case of it being a special Pokémon that doesn't have to be explained thoroughly because it's special and one of a kind (not a case like Dusk Form Lycanroc which has an easy explanation on why it evolves into that form.)

    I thought it was every 1000(?) years, a special Froakie is born with this transformation and seeks to find a trainer that'll help it get stronger. it did have something to do with a doomsday prophecy but I don't think they did much with it like Olympia predicted that a Greninja with a special form with it's trainer will save Kalos.

    I think the pain sharing lessened and eventually went away once they mastered Ash Greninja. I also feel like Ash was given Ash Greninja just to not have Ash get Mega Evolution and he needed an ace.
     
  3. Satomine Night

    Satomine Night The Power of Z!

    As I recall, the Bond Phenomenon transformation is determined by more than just the strength of the bond between a Pokémon and its Trainer. The ability to transform is actually a trait the Pokémon possesses. In other words, Ash's Greninja is a mutant who possesses an apparently rare gene/trait that enables it to transform when it has a strong bond with its Trainer. The reason none of Ash's other Pokémon have been able to transform, in spite of their strong bonds with him, is because none of them possess the Bond Phenomenon trait.

    While there is no evidence to suggest that the trait is limited to the Greninja species, there is no evidence to suggest that it is not limited to the Greninja species, either. The anime did not offer the most in-depth explanation on the Bond Phenomenon, but that doesn't make Ash-Greninja a plot hole.

    The Bond Phenomenon transformation is not a permanent one; it appears to wear off after a certain (undetermined) period of time. The last time we saw Greninja, it was in its normal form, not in its Ash-Greninja form (and since there's no evidence to suggest it can transform without Ash present, we can assume it has remained in its normal form).
     
  4. FrozTKnight

    FrozTKnight Will ORA ORA ORA you

    I think the Lycanroc evolution was explained in show was due to the green flash that appears on rare occasions that triggers the Dusk Form. It's a little farfetched but given the circumstances of how rare the event is and it only affecting the Lycanroc line I could see why it's so rare and why there is no information about it but there should atleast some rumors or legends of the People of Alola seeing a different coloured Lycanroc.

    Yeah the mutation affecting the transformation could a good explanation but the problem is that there was nothing in the anime that backs and it just speculation and shouldn't be taken as fact.

    So that would make point 3 a plot hole since there isn't thing that restrics any other species of Pokémon (Ash's old Pokémon) or any other trainer with a Greninja from getting the transformation.

    I really don't know why the anime wanted to make something like AG when they had something that was even better could have been more cooler. Greninja with protean. We know Mega Pokémon aren't literal powerhouses in game, it depends on how they are used and could be defeated by regular Pokemon so never understood why they made Megas unbeatable by regular Pokemon, could you imagine Greninja running around the battlefield changing type etc. Would have been a spectacle.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2018
  5. SinnohEevee

    SinnohEevee Well-Known Member

    Was it the Ash-Greninja form that allows the frog to see the vines? How could that work without Ash around?
     
  6. Satomine Night

    Satomine Night The Power of Z!

    The anime does back up the "mutation theory." Professor Sycamore said the Bond Phenomenon transformation appears to be related to the potential ability of the Pokémon itself. In other words, a Pokémon has to possess the gene/trait that enables the transformation in order for the transformation to be possible in the first place. The anime didn't go into genetics (probably due to the age of the target audience), but that's pretty much what his explanation boiled down to—genetics.

    Yes, there are restrictions preventing just any Pokémon from achieving the transformation. First, a Pokémon has to possess the gene/trait—the potential ability. Then, the Pokémon has to form a strong bond, one of mutual trust, with its Trainer, in order to activate the transformation (activate the gene, if you will). Basically, it's a combination of things that makes the Bond Phenomenon transformation possible. The likelihood of a Trainer having a Froakie that is born with the potential ability and achieving a super strong bond with it might not be as high as one might think, especially if the Bond Phenomenon trait is really, really rare (which it appears to be).
     
  7. Yukki

    Yukki ___

    It's closer to a Deus Ex Machina than a plot hole.

    Ash-Greninja exists solely because the writers wanted to give Ash something special and so they invented this whole BS transformation that doesn't really make sense.
     
    Crystal likes this.
  8. Pokegirl Fan~

    Pokegirl Fan~ *Sailor Mars*

    Pretty much this imo. I think it would have been better off if they just gave Ash a mega evolution instead imo
     
  9. SinnohEevee

    SinnohEevee Well-Known Member

    GF are in part to blame for this since among all Gen VI Pokémon, they only gave Mega to Diancie.
    It seems Ash can only have current generation Pokémon (save for Pikachu) in this show.
    BTW, A-G was even GF's Idea.
     
  10. Zoruagible

    Zoruagible Lucario Lover

    It's not a plot hole, they just simply didn't want to give Ash a Mega. Probably because they knew everybody would hate on whatever Pokemon he caught and Mega Evolved, and for good reason.... his first Mega should be Charizard, it certainly felt like they were going that way when they brought Charizard back... but I guess Charizard's return was simply just an apology for an awful saga and an injustice to Team Plasma.
    Not to mention the fact they'd have to give Ash the stones for Sceptile, Glalie, Heracross, and whatever Pokemon he caught

    I loved Ash-Greninja, I just felt the whole "pain sharing" was just dumb and a waste of time that could have gone to actually developing Noivern. If we ever get new Megas, I pray they give Ash an actual Mega though. It'd be nice to have another non-starter ace like Krookodile and Heracross, cause you just know the new starters won't be getting them. Though, that also sets up an excuse to keep the starters at stage one.... ugh.
     
  11. Navin

    Navin MALDREAD

    It's because Gamefreak didn't make a Mega Greninja for the games, and the show wanted to take advantage of Greninja's popularity (it was arguably the most popular XY Pokemon) by giving Ash a special 'Mega' form with a random explanation of a prophesied frog who'll save the day. But wait, didn't Alain and Charizard also help save the day, so why wasn't there a prophecy about Alain's Charizard? This is on top of the fact that the writers conveniently "forgot" about continuity (aka they purposefully chose to make XY self-contained), so they didn't bring back any of Ash's Mega-compatible Pokemon.

    Honestly, so much of Ash-Greninja was done for the sake of coolness rather than with any explanation. The pain-sharing mechanic and mirroring each other's moves looked sweet, but didn't make any sense or wasn't consistent. If A-G getting hit a Leaf Storm had Ash clutching in pain, then something like MCX's final Blast Burn should have literally sent Ash into neurogenic shock. And if Ash is mirroring A-G's moves, then when A-G is doing his acrobatic movements, is Ash flipping around like Yoda? The Orange Shuriken was even worse, because that was the biggest reverse tease ever, with the previews making you think that's going to be A-G's finisher to win Ash the league. It comes out of absolutely nowhere (at least stuff like Thunder Armor has some explanation and forehadowing), never shows up again when it could have been useful in the Flare climax, and doesn't do **** other than MCX briefly stumbling. But still, Greninja was wickedly cool, Greninja v Sceptile at the league was amazing, and IKUZE was awesome, so I guess some of those flaws can be forgiven.
     
    Mr. Reloaded likes this.
  12. TheWanderingMist

    TheWanderingMist Limit's 50, apparently.

    Nah, it's not a plot hole. They even gave a special ability to Greninja in the games to explain it. We never once saw Torrent activate for Froakie, sp it stands to reason that Froakie was just born with the Ability Battle Bond. It might happen only every thousand years because it's a random mutation (like how Manaphy is a mutation of Phione that's more powerful, but can't pass down what makes it powerful)
     
  13. Akkipeddi

    Akkipeddi Gen VII = trash

    Seems like many people always misinterpret this part, as they think it's the sheer bond between Ash and Greninja that brings out the special Ash Greninja form. While it's true that they have a very close bond, the anime also made it clear that Ash's Froakie was something special all along. From the time of its capture, where Professor Sycamore specified that it rejected all its previous trainers, to the flashbacks that showed it being an outcast in its group. It's basically genetics that were at play, since Ash's Greninja could be considered a 'mutant'. It had a special ability, and Ash was the one who was able to unlock it and take it to the next level. So, yes, they actually did mention how this form is only limited to Greninja.

    It's quite clear that the transformation can't happen unless Ash and Greninja are together, or at least close by, so the idea that Ash could get hurt wherever he is is pretty stupid. Heck, at the end of the series, when Ash was flying back, and we saw what everyone was up to, Greninja was in its normal form, so that closes the idea.

    Also, ultimately, Ash Greninja exists in the games as well, so that definitely rules out it being a plot hole, which it admittedly could've been if it was only anime exclusive (besides, people don't seem to realise that Ash Greninja was Gamefreak's idea all along).

    You know what is a plot hole? Infernape's Blaze. Yeah sure Blaze exists as an ability (well so does Battle Bond), but the anime clearly modified it well beyond how much regular Blaze works, which was as good as its own ability. And it had it since it was a wild Chimchar, and no explanation was ever given as to why that particular Chimchar had such a strong Blaze.
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2018
  14. Navin

    Navin MALDREAD

    I wish the anime would have made actual use of the pain sharing or 'synchro' mechanics. Vast majority of the time, there was no difference with how Greninja battled compared to any other Pokemon. They should have done something where Ash could have 'absorbed' some of Greninja's damage (visibly show Ash in pain, getting more and more weakened) to allow the frog to keep battling further. Or maybe with how Diantha and Gardevoir foreshadowed and showcased their ability to battle wordlessly, have Ash and Greninja reach to the point where they too can battle without saying a single word. That would have showed being in true sync.
     
  15. Leonhart

    Leonhart Disney fanatic

    I don't see Satoshi-Gekkouga's origin as a plot hole per se, although I'll admit to disliking the whole situation since I prefer Gekkouga's normal design. That, and I would've rather seen Satoshi use a Mega Evolution in XY.
     
  16. ash&charizardfan

    ash&charizardfan Well-Known Member

    Not to mention the fact that both misty and brock got megas over ash even when he travelled kalos more extensively than them.

    As for AG it was not plot hole butmore of a duex ex machina which was done in a wrong way, instead of that bond phenomenon that happens once in 100 years they should have just combined AG plot with ninja village after all the legendary form was shown there. Bond phenomenon makes greninja looks special and who have more bond with ah than both pikachu and charizard which is silly.
     
  17. Epicocity

    Epicocity Well-Known Member

    Okay, for one thing, "deus ex machina" is a term that means "something that comes out of nowhere to resolve the plot". Ash-Greninja didn't do any of that. It was hinted at liberally and gone into depth about and was not the answer to every solution either for Ash's badges and League quest, or for the Flare arc. It was about the furthest thing from a deus ex machina. Just because Ash didn't get a Mega doesn't make it either an asspull or a DEM.

    Secondly, it only makes Greninja look like he has a greater bond if you don't pay attention to what's actually said in the series where it's explicitly stated that Greninja is the one with the special power, and that's brought out with his and Ash's bond. It doesn't mean it's greater than Pikachu's bond with him, or Charizard's or even Sceptile's or something; it literally just means "they're bond is strong and Greninja is special". The explanation in XYZ 36 even says this.
     
  18. Satomine Night

    Satomine Night The Power of Z!

    Ash "absorbing" some of Greninja's damage to allow Greninja to keep battling further actually would have been very interesting, and now I'm wishing the writers had done something like that. Ash fainting during battles was a good start to that, and it's kind of a shame that the writers dropped that once Ash and Greninja mastered the Bond Phenomenon form. I get that Ash couldn't always faint during battles, but having him get weaker and weaker the more damage he absorbed would have essentially put a time limit on how long they could use the form, and would have added tension to every battle.

    I also like the idea of Ash and Greninja being able to battle without saying a word to each other. It would have been another step in their synchronization. The first step is Ash imitating Greninja's movements and can I just say it would have been hilarious if Ash did acrobatic flips whenever Greninja hopped around the battlefield?. The second step was Ash feeling Greninja's pain. A good third step would have been their minds becoming so in sync that they could communicate without words.

    This is what I have been saying, and I'm surprised so many people seemed to have missed this point. Ash's bond with Greninja isn't greater than his bond with his other Pokémon. (We all know Ash's bond with Pikachu is stronger than his bond with any of his other Pokémon.) The Bond Phenomenon is possible due to Greninja. As I said in my earlier posts, Ash's Greninja is a mutant who possesses a rare gene that enables it to transform when its bond with is Trainer is incredibly strong. I thought Professor Sycamore's explanation made that pretty clear.
     
  19. Navin

    Navin MALDREAD

    Yeah, they could have also justified it as the Synchro form being significantly more powerful than a standard Mega Evolution boost (the anime showed no difference...so what's the benefit of Synchro form it's basically Mega + Ash gets hurt using it), but Ash and Greninja have to build up to the form each battle and can't sustain it for longer than X amounts of seconds. But in the Flare climax, they could have shown Ash/Greninja reaching true sync and using the form for an extended amount of time and that power single-handedly stopping the Giant Rock.

    Ah well, that's just XY for you. Massive potential that tried to be great with its concepts, that sometimes achieved them and sometimes only had mediocre to decent execution.
     
  20. 345ash-greninja

    345ash-greninja XY(Z) is the best!!!

    Um, you mean that the special ability of the synchro form, a.k.a., Ash being able to share his vision with Greninja wasn't useful during the TF arc? That literally helped Ash to mark Chespie's location in the Megalith and in the process saving Chespie? Without marking Chespie's location properly, saving Chespie and stopping the Megalith would've been impossible. It's clear that the syncrho form's special ability was the key there.

    And you can't really expect the boost from the synchro form to be higher than Mega Evolutions like Alain's Mega Charizard X. Because Mega Evolution boost depends on the strength of the bond between the trainer and the Pokemon, how much experience one has with Mega Evolution. Alain shared an unbreakably strong bond with his Charizard, had the goal of becoming the greatest Mega Evolution trainer, worked hard day and night for it, has enormous experience with Mega Evolution (pretty much used ME in every battle). So not getting a higher boost compared to Alain's Charizard is understandable. But still, compared to the other Mega Evolutions shown in XY(apart from the ones belonging to E4 members and Champions), it did provide a considerably higher boost.
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2018

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