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Is Ash-Greninja a plot hole?

Discussion in 'Pokémon Animé Discussion' started by FrozTKnight, Mar 22, 2018.

  1. Navin

    Navin MALDREAD

    It was useful, but for how much the writers propped up the prophecy, I expected a more epic portrayal of Greninja being the prophesied hero.

    That's exactly my point. They could have differentiated Synchro Evolution vs Mega Evolution with Ash/Greninja having a significantly more powerful boost than ME, but they have to work up to it each battle and they're unable to sustain it for any longer than X amount of seconds. That would be in contrast to Mega Evolution, in which trainers can use it right away and it stays until the duration of the battle, but doesn't have the crazy boost of Synchro Evolution.

    As it stands now, Alain/Charizard also helped save the day, Alain didn't need to have any prophecy for his Charizard, and Alain could Mega Evolve his Charizard to an extremely powerful level without suffering from the pain-sharing mechanics of Synchro Evolution. Meanwhile, Synchro Evolution comes across a vague, power up that's essentially "Mega Greninja" all in but name.

    ^ That's just one idea too. I already talked above about how the pain-sharing mechanics or synchronous wordless communication could have been presented.
     
  2. SinnohEevee

    SinnohEevee Well-Known Member

    I don't get the part about Ash feeling Greninja's pain. Why make a human share the pain of a Pokémon?
     
  3. 345ash-greninja

    345ash-greninja Knucklehead Ninja

    Well if you hear Olympia's prophecy at the start of XY&Z25, it's pretty much clear that Zygarde would be main one instrumental behind saving Kalos. Yes, Ash-Greninja was also supposed to play a major role as well, but if you really expected it to play a bigger role than Zygarde, then I'm gonna say that you misunderstood the prophecy somewhat.

    Ash-Greninja still played an unique and very important role in the TF climax, marking Chespie's location, which was very important and a role that no other Pokemon would've been able to play. And if you're talking about heroic portrayal, then Pikachu, Ash-Greninja and Mega Charizard X were given the most heroic portrayal in the end (apart from Zygarde). Those 3 Pokemon are the ones who entered the core of the Megalith, and provided Alain cover from the sharp edged crystals there while Alain got Chespie out.

    And even at last, Pikachu, Ash-Greninja and Mega Charizard X destroyed Lysandre's hand device which revived and controlled the Megalith after Chespie was rescued from it, and in the process make it easier for Perfect Zygarde to destroy the Megalith. So there goes your heroic portrayal.


    Like I said, Mega Evolution boost varies based on the bond between the good and the Pokemon and the amount of experience one has with Mega Evolution. Ash and Greninja had an entire arc/worked very hard on mastering the form, and after mastering the form they managed to sustain it for a long amount of time during battles. Compared to many Megas shown in like Korrina's Mega Lucario, Wulfric's Mega Abomasnow, Astrid's Mega Absol, Remo's Mega Garchomp, Trevor's Mega Charizard Y, Sawyer's Mega Sceptile, etc. the form clearly provided a much higher boost. But in case of Alain's Mega Charizard X, he and Charizard shared a very strong bond, plus more importantly had much more experience with Mega Evolution than Ash had with Synchro. So the Ash-Greninja form not getting a higher boost compared to what Alain's Charizard got is clearly understandable. So with the cases with the Megas owned by E4 members and Champions, because they have much more experience with ME as well.

    Explained above why. Alain's case is exceptional because of his unbreakable bond with Charizard and his goal of becoming the strongest Mega Evolution trainer, in course of which he gained an unrealistic amount of experience with Mega Evolution. So the boost from Mega Evolution he and his Charizard got was massive, being able to rival the Synchro. But compared to most of other Mega Evolutions shown in XY, the synchro form clearly provided a much higher boost (excluding Megas owned by E4 members and Champions, because they are supposed to have a lot of experience).

    And then again, Alain's Mega Charizard X wouldn't have been able to locate Chespie within the Megalith.
     
  4. SinnohEevee

    SinnohEevee Well-Known Member

    Are we sure the boost from ME depends on the bond? I know that without a strong bond, your Pokémon loses control.
     
  5. Navin

    Navin MALDREAD

    I expected more than what Greninja actually ended up doing. If you felt that was sufficiently heroic for the prophecy, that's fine.

    They didn't have to "sustain" anything. Like Mega Evolution, the moment the transformation happened, it stayed until the duration of the battle. Vast majority of the time, there was no difference between Ash/Greninja battling versus Ash and any other of his Pokemon.

    Whether or not Mega Evolution provides a different type of boost (all stats get boosted vs some stats get boost) that changes/Pokemon, and whether that change increases or decreases depending on the trainer/Pokemon bond, is a different topic entirely. My point is that Synchro Evolution should have been different to a standard Mega Evolution, as in a certain trainer with a strong bond like Alain and his Charizard shouldn't be able to have a more powerful boost than Synchro and without the pain-sharing flaws of Synchro, even though they aren't part of any prophecy.
     
  6. Epicocity

    Epicocity Well-Known Member

    If I remember correctly, Olympia never said that Greninja was the key to everything. She said that she saw Frogadier's future and told Ash how to handle it. The only thing she said was that they would all play a central role in the Kalos Crisis, which they did. Likewise, her psychic powers don't work on demand, so leaving out Alain's own involvement makes sense. Not like she mentioned Flare, anyway. I really think it's a sort of misinterpretation people had based on the events of the episode and following gym battle that made people think Greninja was going to play this massive role, when in truth, he was just to play a role (and it was still a necessary role, since without Ash-Greninja, the whole entire arc is significantly changed).
     
  7. Navin

    Navin MALDREAD

    I guess. I was just hoping more from a 1000 year old prophecy, and a better, clear explanation and use of the Synchro evolution other than being a vague power-up that was essentially Mega Evolution all in but name.
     
  8. Epicocity

    Epicocity Well-Known Member

    Except it wasn't a 1000 year prophecy? It was more like a...right then and there prophecy. The thing from 1000 years ago was something that actually happened. It wasn't prophesying Ash's Greninja. It was the literal hero of the ninja village from history. That was it. Olympia was the only one with the prophecy. And it was at least slightly different from Mega Evolution considering its power broke through Mega Evolution energy itself and was the reason Lysandre sought him.

    Seems more that you just wanted something it wasn't, which could've had potential, but I'm just saying.
     
  9. Genaller

    Genaller May 16th 2016 - October 12th 2019

    (1) and (2) can be explained away by the fact that Greninja won the gene lottery in getting the Battle Bond ability which is what allowed synchronization to be achieved in the first place (and to a lesser extent Ash’s Infernape also won a gene lottery in getting a special variant of Blaze which no other Pokémon had which I’d conjecture was actually a pre-cursor to the A-G form). (3) isn’t an issue since the Ash-Greninja transformation can only hold when Ash and Greninja are close to each other (I doubt it was a coincidence that Greninja was explicitly shown in Base at the end of the series).
     
    Shadao likes this.
  10. FrozTKnight

    FrozTKnight Will ORA ORA ORA you

    They could have use the same concept of STANDS in JoJo's with the STAND users not moving around much but take the same damage the STANDS take (but they would have to tone down the violence and blood) ex. Ash-Greninja gets a point blank fire blast and Ash feels the pain but ignores if and continues the battle after when they go to the Pokemon Center and Ash's goes his room and takes his shirt of he notices he has a burn on his shoulder the same place where Greninja got hit. It would also be a good excuse to why Ash doesn't use AG as often since it puts him at risk and humans are not resilient to the amount of damage a Pokemon could take
     
  11. Shadao

    Shadao Champion GETTO DA ZE!

    1-2) Greninja's ability to transform lies in its Ability: Battle Bond. Abilities are genetic traits for all purpose and intend in Pokémon. And thus, the specialness of Ash-Greninja lies not within the bond between Ash and Greninja, but within Greninja himself. It's a type of ability that requires a trainer to bring out its best potential. Theoretically, any Pokémon with Battle Bond can do something similar to Ash-Greninja, we just haven't seen them yet. But that is up to Gamefreak to decide since they were the ones who introduced the idea of Synchro-Evolution (Battle Bond) to the anime writers and worked it in the games (the XY Director merely wanted something for Greninja to stand out in the crowd of Mega Evolved Pokémon since it didn't have any as well as demonstrating the developing bond between Ash and Greninja).

    3) They have been fairly consistent on the pain sharing thing as far as I can tell. It does hurt Ash but at the very worst, only through fainting when their bond is unbalanced. Ash, who has been shocked, burned, soaked, and suffered through every sort of injuries possible (including death) for nearly a thousand episodes, should be able to handle whatever is thrown against Greninja. Additionally, last we saw Ash-Greninja, it was back to its original Greninja form, no doubt to prevent implications that Ash will be suffering internally for the rest of his life because Battle Bond is activated and Ash-Greninja is getting hurt from vines.
     
  12. Power Up

    Power Up ...

    Didn't think it was a plot hole, but AG was pretty much unnecessary
     
  13. AuraChannelerChris

    AuraChannelerChris "Danger is dangerous."

    That Greninja solely existed to keep Ash from ever touching Mega Evolution, which at the time relied heavily on non-Gen 6 Pokemon and therefore past continuity. This only caused Ash to forget he had his own Charizard and Sceptile, which would have made for sweet continuity nods and more moments with Alain and Sawyer respectively (or straight out make them both ask for his hand in marriage given their current fascination towards him...).

    (The director claimed they somehow forgot about past continuity...even when there was a Charizard staring at Ash's face. Like, how forgetful can you get?)

    Even the backstory for the transformation is lacking in so many things and basically boiled to this: in the past, a random Greninja (whose trainer was never seen even as a shadow) performed powerful attacks that stopped a war (that wasn't elaborated on) in a place called freakin' Ninja Village where not a single person in there has relation to whoever that hero from the past was...but some Froakie unrelated to the roots of said village was lucky enough to have that gift, and he was even luckier to find the right person who just so happened to give it the vague similar looks (even though Ash's attire was stolen from Calem) when transforming.

    ...I'm a writer myself, and I can't believe what I wrote just now is factual stuff. Factual, impossible stuff. Deus Ex Machina at its finest, really.
     
  14. LilligantLewis

    LilligantLewis primarina donna

    Exactly. One of my biggest problems with Ash-Greninja is it was initially set up in the Ninja Village arc to be connected to the ninjas, ...... only for them to never appear again. That part made no sense at all for sure
     
  15. Navin

    Navin MALDREAD

    I'm still wondering why there was a random ninja village in the middle of Poke-France.
     
  16. Lord Trollbias

    Lord Trollbias Y'all Salty Bishes

    Plot hole? Nah. Just massively contrived. Would rather it just have been Mega-Greninja tbh, even if the Mega form had to be anime exclusive. I mean that's all it basically amounted to in the end.
     
    Navin likes this.
  17. MidnightMelody

    MidnightMelody Hopeful for Gen 8

    I gave up on it after the final battle in the league. That still pisses me off after two years.
     
  18. Crystal

    Crystal The Pokemon Observer

    Plot hole nor Deux ex machina are not the right name for this Ash-Greninja gimmick. Calling it now! The supreme name of his majesty: MacGuffin!!!
    And this is not just a normal MacGuffin. This is a MacGuffin that abused the Rule of Cool, made itself into The Chosen One by injecting Common Mary Sue Traits, now it is a patient of the Special Snowflake Syndrome.

    Let's diagnose our patient:
    1) Ash's Greninja was already from the time of being a Frokkie distant itself from its own species, and it was so aloof where it rejected all previous trainers only until Ash. Why? Well, because he is supeciaaaaalllll! This Frokkie is one of a kind of its own. Early symptom of Special Snowflake Syndrome.
    2) Olympia prophesy Greninja's new power and his heroic role in upcoming future crisis. Wow ho!!! Now this individual pokemon is The Chosen One!!! Haul the "I'm the supeciaaaaaallll ONE" flag high up in the sky.
    3) Ash's Greninja can perform a unique transformation that no other can do. There is this similar one called Mega Evolution? Nah, mine is Bond Phenomenon, a different kind, a unique one exclusive to me, I'm the sole stockholder of this Bond Phenomenon. Middle stage symptom of Special Snowflake Syndrome.
    4) But there is this episode of Ninja Village acknowledging the existence of Bond Phenomenon! It is set into the background setting! This Bond Phenomenon has its authentic root! Ahem, "authentic root"? That was just an old visual record about a Greninja in the past achieved such transformation, it didn't described why it happened and how it happened, all that old folklore or legend did was just to affirm the existence of this transformation, but still it didn't affirm the validity of this transformation. Besides, this entire episode IMO sounds narratively very fishy, as like it was written in such way in order to squeeze in some authenticity for this controversial gimmick. But still, IMO I think it failed, because at the end of the day that artificial authenticity lacks logicality, still it doesn't make Bond Phenomenon a believable natural phenomenon.
    5) OK, so Citron using his scientific device finally managed to define the reason Greninja transformed was due to his bond with Ash. Then this sound more absurd. Why? Simple. Because the pokemon that is suppose to had the greatest bond with Ash should always be Pikachu, his first pokemon that had followed him for years, the pokemon he has before he even came to Kalos. Greninja, you are only here with Ash for something less than 3 years (in-universe-wise maybe less than a year), you wanted to argue you are now the most beloved pokemon of him? OK, shall this Bond Phenomenon doesn't require the utmost love from its trainer, only up to certain level is fine enough. Then here the question: Why the Greninjas in Ninja Village cannot transform? Why no other Greninja hold by any other trainer can transform? Are those people's connection with their Greninja nothing stronger than Ash's? What makes Ash's connection with his Greninja so special which can trigger a miracle no one had ever achieved within these several hundred years? What is so special about Ash other than his narrative specialness of being "The Protagonist"? If this Bond Phenomenon can be explained only by any breaking-the-4th-wall meta explanation, then it is in-universe-wise still lacks validity.
    6) OK, this gimmick is now backward imported into the next gen game, where it is an ability (event-exclusive, this is important!) unique to a specific individual Greninja. Ability is known to be an intrinsic nature of a pokemon, hence it is part of its DNA. A Greninja that has complete different ability not findable normally within its same species. What does this mean? This means Ash's Greninja is a mutant having complete different DNA from its same species! Such a broken explanation that is finally plausible enough to brush off everything in the past. Maximum Sueishness + Late stage symptom of Special Snowflake Syndrome.

    So, at the end of the day, what is this Ash-Greninja thingy? Well, just a MacGuffin made to look "special" on the surface. Though its level of specialness went overboard to the point of unbelievable and unnatural, hence that is where the controversy came from.

    BTW, being a fanfic writer myself, we were told many times by the community veterans to avoid such kind of poorly done characters at all cost when we write our fic. It is really laughable from my eyes where a story written by professional writers openly committed such character design failure not even hobbyist will do.
     
    LilligantLewis likes this.
  19. Satomine Night

    Satomine Night The Power of Z!

    Firstly, your post made me laugh. Thank you.

    IMO, Ash-Greninja is not really a MacGuffin—at least, not a true MacGuffin. Was it interchangeable? Well, one could argue that, in the grand scheme of things, yes, it was interchangeable with Mega Evolution, in the sense that a Mega Evolved Greninja would have done just as well as Ash-Greninja outside of the Bond Phenomenon story arc. But that's the thing—it was not interchangeable within the Bond Phenomenon story arc. Likewise, it was not irrelevant to the plot, as an entire story and character arc involved mastering the form. So, it's not a true MacGuffin.

    I'm not sure why people jump from "a strong bond is required for the transformation" to "Greninja has the strongest bond with Ash out of all of his Pokémon." It was only stated that Greninja has a strong bond with Ash. It was never stated that Greninja has the strongest bond with Ash, out of all of Ash's Pokémon. The Bond Phenomenon transformation doesn't require the strongest of bonds; it just requires a strong bond. The Pokémon with the strongest bond with Ash is still, and always will be, Pikachu.

    Why can't the Greninja in the Ninja Village transform? Simple—none of them possess the Bond Phenomenon ability/trait/gene (at least, we can assume none of them possess the Bond Phenomenon ability). The Bond Phenomenon ability is apparently very rare. One could argue Ash lucked out in encountering, and being chosen by, one of the few Froakie in Kalos who possess the Bond Phenomenon trait.
     
  20. FrozTKnight

    FrozTKnight Will ORA ORA ORA you

    That was a fun read, and gave me a nice chuckle but I think you might trigger some people who like the transformation.

    It was kind of since they could have given Ash a mega and he really didn't need to take the stone to the next region. Like they do exactly that we Alain and the mega Pokemon Ash could have gotten doesn't need to be one of his old Pokemon there are plenty of candidates he could have caught in Kalos like Lucario.

    I think its because games/=anime.

    We knew about the battle bond thing in the anime but they just call it a phenomenon and doesn't try to explain it as an ability.

    And they have no choice but to make the bond thing in the games a exclusive ability so the Pokemon won't break the game and mechanic doesn't even worth the same way it does in the anime since you need to knock out a Pokemon to active "Battle Bond".

    Also additionally I think people don't like born special heros or currently fed up with them. Look at the most popular Pokemon that almost everyone love Infernape he had to work hard to get control of his ability when he was constantly being **** on...

    They coud have achieved this if they went the Korrina and Lucario route with AG, he was given this power temper by lets say Zygarde after maybe Zygarde foresaw the comming threat and wanted a new champion to protect Kalos and then came across Ash and Greninja gave them the test to see if they would be worthy of the power blah blah they are worthy they get it tbey struggle to control and have a moment of almost giving up Ash remembers how he has never backed down before and says he'll keep trying they succeed in controlling it then acomplish mission Zygarde takes powers back and Greninja will be able to return with Ash back to Kanto
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2018
    LilligantLewis likes this.

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