Is Ash-Greninja a plot hole?

[Satomine Night]

Yeah Battle Bond isn't even mention in the anime so I don't buy it. And a person/Pokemon wanting to spend time alone doesn't make you a saviour or prophesied hero dude

Battle Bond is mentioned in the anime, just by a different name—the Bond Phenomenon. In fact, it was known as the Bond Phenomenon first; it wasn't until Gamefreak decided to incorporate Ash-Greninja in the SM demo that they gave it the Ability the name Battle Bond. They are the same thing.

I'll say it again that is a patheic excuse of a plot point to make the Pokemon unique. Heck Froakie isn't even that unique compared to Pikachu, that Pikachu has got to be top 1% of Pikachus x1000

It doesn't matter whether or not Froakie is unique compared to Pikachu. It's still unique in that it possesses an apparently rare Ability, Battle Bond/Bond Phenomenon.

 

[Epicocity]

I highly doubt Froakie leaving its trainers was any kind of hint, and I sincerely doubt Ash-Greninja was even planned at that point in the story. If anything, the whole Froakie leaving trainers and then finally finding the right trainer in Ash was yet another thing XY did to show us that Ash is this super special guy who is different from other trainers.

XY in general focused a lot more on bookending and knowing their plot from day one. They may not have known specifically that they wanted to do Ash-Greninja, but they did at least know that they wanted to make Froakie special. And it was a hint considering it was said that Froakie was simply the kind of Pokemon that did as it wanted and left trainers spontaneously, never finding that one trainer until it was interested in Ash.

Though, to weigh in on how Ash-Greninja greatly changed things, not only did it change just the Flare arc on a surface level, but it would have completely altered Alain's character as well. Without Lysandre interested in Ash because of the Bond Phenomenon, Ash wouldn't have been there to help Alain snap out of the depression he was sent into, which would have made things gravely worse, in the end. You really can't just excise it from the plot and replace with a Mega, because at that point, the entire Alain plotline wouldn't exist (Ash would've just been some guy to battle for energy instead of something special).

 

[FrozTKnight]

Battle Bond is mentioned in the anime, just by a different name—the Bond Phenomenon. In fact, it was known as the Bond Phenomenon first; it wasn't until Gamefreak decided to incorporate Ash-Greninja in the SM demo that they gave it the Ability the name Battle Bond. They are the same thing.

Yeah I keep saying game =/= anime but you keep on insisting it is so if that were true.

Then most of the strategies Ash uses in the anime would be BS
Ash Greninja in the anime would work with any trainer and they don't need the bond to work and Greninja needs to knock out a Pokemon to transform
Z-moves can't be doged.
Mega evolution won't make Pokemon go crazy

It doesn't matter whether or not Froakie is unique compared to Pikachu. It's still unique in that it possesses an apparently rare Ability, Battle Bond/Bond Phenomenon.

Again they don't even mention it being an ability, and the only reason GF made it an ability is so that it won't break the game mechanics. And Battle Bond doesn't even work the same way in the anime and games like I mention before.

I always say the anime =/= games because make the anime use game mechanics would hinder the anime and make battles look boring. And like it when the anime does creative stuff, like Ash's strategies but I call bs if they contradict their own history and lore.

 

[Satomine Night]

Yeah I keep saying game =/= anime but you keep on insisting it is so if that were true.

Then most of the strategies Ash uses in the anime would be BS
Ash Greninja in the anime would work with any trainer and they don't need the bond to work and Greninja needs to knock out a Pokemon to transform
Z-moves can't be doged.
Mega evolution won't make Pokemon go crazy

Not once did I ever say that games = anime. You said the Battle Bond was never mentioned in the anime. It was, just under a different name—Bond Phenomenon. Remember, Gamefreak were the ones who came up with the idea for the Bond Phenomenon in the first place (although they were approached by the anime staff for ideas). It's just that when they incorporated it into the games, they decided to rename it Battle Bond. That doesn't make it a different ability. Yeah, it might not work the same, but that could be attributed to it originating in the anime first, and then having to be adjusted to fit the game mechanics. It's still the same ability.

Again they don't even mention it being an ability, and the only reason GF made it an ability is so that it won't break the game mechanics. And Battle Bond doesn't even work the same way in the anime and games like I mention before.

I always say the anime =/= games because make the anime use game mechanics would hinder the anime and make battles look boring. And like it when the anime does creative stuff, like Ash's strategies but I call bs if they contradict their own history and lore.

Professor Sycamore outright referred to the Bond Phenomenon as a potential ability. If it's not an ability, then what is it? You just said yourself the anime doesn't always use game mechanics. So Battle Bond doesn't work in the games exactly the way the Bond Phenomenon works in the anime. That doesn't mean it's not the same ability.

 

[FrozTKnight]

Not once did I ever say that games = anime. You said the Battle Bond was never mentioned in the anime. It was, just under a different name—Bond Phenomenon. Remember, Gamefreak were the ones who came up with the idea for the Bond Phenomenon in the first place (although they were approached by the anime staff for ideas). It's just that when they incorporated it into the games, they decided to rename it Battle Bond. That doesn't make it a different ability. Yeah, it might not work the same, but that could be attributed to it originating in the anime first, and then having to be adjusted to fit the game mechanics. It's still the same ability.

You keep saying that Battle Bond and Bond Phenomenon is essentially the same thing, yet they work in completely different ways, so they aren't the same thing. So you can't use in-game rules to explain anime rules, each medium works under different rules since one doesn't translate into another medium.

Professor Sycamore outright referred to the Bond Phenomenon as a potential ability. If it's not an ability, then what is it? You just said yourself the anime doesn't always use game mechanics. So Battle Bond doesn't work in the games exactly the way the Bond Phenomenon works in the anime. That doesn't mean it's not the same ability.

Yeah he says "potential ability" not its special ability. You are taking what he said too literally, also if it did have "Bond Phenomenon" as an ability then why didn't it show signs of this in it previous evolutionary stages?

And I have no issue with Ash-Greninja being a thing (even though personally I dislike it), my issue is with its lore as I said before...

Why there have been no Pokemon with this ability to bond with a trainer and transform and well Ash's bonds with his other Pokemon not triggering this.
Also why is this mutation only exclusive to Kalos? There more than 800 species of Pokemon and 6 regions and non of them has a scenario like this happen?
And if its exclusive to Greninja why haven't there been in the 100 year gap. If we use your genetic mutation then there should have been atleast a one instance of a Greninja achieving this form.
Also this is more of a nitpick, did they really have wank Greninja more and leave the other 2 starters in the dust?

 

[Satomine Night]

Why there have been no Pokemon with this ability to bond with a trainer and transform and well Ash's bonds with his other Pokemon not triggering this.
Also why is this mutation only exclusive to Kalos? There more than 800 species of Pokemon and 6 regions and non of them has a scenario like this happen?
And if its exclusive to Greninja why haven't there been in the 100 year gap. If we use your genetic mutation then there should have been atleast a one instance of a Greninja achieving this form.
Also this is more of a nitpick, did they really have wank Greninja more and leave the other 2 starters in the dust?

We don't know if there have been other Pokémon with the Bond Phenomenon ability, and we don't know if the mutation is exclusive to Kalos. It's just so happens that Kalos is where it has been reported, at least as far as we, the audience, knows.

Ash's bonds with his other Pokémon didn't trigger a transformation because none of his other Pokémon possess the Bond Phenomenon ability. We keep saying this over and over, and you keep seeming to miss this: the Bond Phenomenon ability is an ability the Pokémon itself possesses. It's not just about the Pokémon's bond with its Trainer. Strong bond or not, a Pokémon can't transform without the Bond Phenomenon ability. Professor Sycamore made that quite clear in his explanation of the Bond Phenomenon.

 

[FrozTKnight]

We don't know if there have been other Pokémon with the Bond Phenomenon ability, and we don't know if the mutation is exclusive to Kalos. It's just so happens that Kalos is where it has been reported, at least as far as we, the audience, knows.

And there you have it, that's an example of bad writing. If you are going to give one of your characters a special power make sure it doesn't contradict anything in your universe or add limitations to this set power this why Mega evolution is easier to explain that Battle Phenomenon"

Mega evolution is an example of a power up that has clear set rules
1) Strong bond with trainer and Pokemon and trainer
2) Only works with two sets of stones
3) Limited number of pokemon have the ability to mega evolve due to the rarity of the mega stones
4) Mega evolution didn't exist till AZ fired his weapon in Kalos so most stones are in Kalos

Ash-Greninja
1) No mention and no in-universe explanation to why its only limited to the Greninja line
2) Not explanation to why there haven't been other Pokemon that have gained access to this form in the history of Pokemon
3) No mention how the previous Greninja gained access to this form, there was no mention of it having a trainer.

Most of this shows they just made up the form as the anime went along with no clear planning sometimes this works other times is causes problems.

Ash's bonds with his other Pokémon didn't trigger a transformation because none of his other Pokémon possess the Bond Phenomenon ability. We keep saying this over and over, and you keep seeming to miss this: the Bond Phenomenon ability is an ability the Pokémon itself possesses. It's not just about the Pokémon's bond with its Trainer. Strong bond or not, a Pokémon can't transform without the Bond Phenomenon ability. Professor Sycamore made that quite clear in his explanation of the Bond Phenomenon.

Again no I didn't miss it dude...

"Bond Phenomenon ability is an ability the Pokémon itself possesses" is never confirmed in the anime and nobody even used it as an explanation till the games comes out and as I said the games and anime canons are different and are not the same.

If a character says "X Pokemon has the ability to mega evolve" do you take it as it having a special ability to mega evolve?

 

[Epicocity]

And there you have it, that's an example of bad writing. If you are going to give one of your characters a special power make sure it doesn't contradict anything in your universe or add limitations to this set power this why Mega evolution is easier to explain that Battle Phenomenon"

"Bond Phenomenon ability is an ability the Pokémon itself possesses" is never confirmed in the anime and nobody even used it as an explanation till the games comes out and as I said the games and anime canons are different and are not the same.

If a character says "X Pokemon has the ability to mega evolve" do you take it as it having a special ability to mega evolve?

I'd say at this point you just want to hate the concept of Ash-Greninja, which is within your right, but you can't say it wasn't explained. For one thing, it was explicitly said in XYZ 36 that Greninja was the one with the latent power (or ability, if you rather, given Greninja's ability itself was never actually confirmed prior to this point the way others were). But it doesn't help that you're not only using a game event (AZ) to explain the anime, but also that you're using things that are explained for Mega Evolution but don't actually explain it (why only certain species? Where did Mega Stones come from? Why do they need a keystone?), while you're choosing things that don't really matter in terms of explaining Ash-Greninja.

You're taking a plot point that is revolving around a specific Greninja and asking "well, why doesn't it apply to everything?" You can like it or dislike it, but it doesn't make it a plot hole, and it doesn't mean that it wasn't explained.

 

[FrozTKnight]

I'd say at this point you just want to hate the concept of Ash-Greninja, which is within your right, but you can't say it wasn't explained. For one thing, it was explicitly said in XYZ 36 that Greninja was the one with the latent power (or ability, if you rather, given Greninja's ability itself was never actually confirmed prior to this point the way others were). But it doesn't help that you're not only using a game event (AZ) to explain the anime, but also that you're using things that are explained for Mega Evolution but don't actually explain it (why only certain species? Where did Mega Stones come from? Why do they need a keystone?), while you're choosing things that don't really matter in terms of explaining Ash-Greninja.

You're taking a plot point that is revolving around a specific Greninja and asking "well, why doesn't it apply to everything?" You can like it or dislike it, but it doesn't make it a plot hole, and it doesn't mean that it wasn't explained.

Never said it wasn't explained, I said I don't buy the explaination.

Also I never brought AZ into argument of Greninja, I only questioned why they didn't use him and his Floette to explain the transformation, instead of a radmon Greninja from a village 100 years ago

Didn't they explain in the anime that Mega stones and key stones are hard to come find and only a few have been found and if I remember he Sycamore put out the possibility that even Dedenne could mega evolve.

Also if I had a problem with AG I wouldn't be suggesting alternative methods to show the form without using the ones they gave us.

1) Use a special mega stone that Zygarde gave the first trainer and his greninja that allows the transformation to occur with any trainer and Pokemon if they are worthy and needed in a time of crisis (this time its Ash and Greninja). When the Crisis is over he hands the mega stone back to the village.

2) Make Ash and Greninja obtain the form in a freak accident when they try to stop Team Flares experiments in trying to harness the Giant Rock and AZ's Floette changed formed due to a similar incident when he uses the weapon. When the Rock Zygarde is destroyed it can't transform since it drew it power from the rock.

P.S. if you are wondering why I remove the transformation from Greninja, its so that the writers won't have to dump him in Kalos like they did in the anime and I would like to see Greninja more since its one of my favourite kalos Pokemon.

 

[Satomine Night]

And there you have it, that's an example of bad writing. If you are going to give one of your characters a special power make sure it doesn't contradict anything in your universe or add limitations to this set power this why Mega evolution is easier to explain that Battle Phenomenon"

Mega evolution is an example of a power up that has clear set rules
1) Strong bond with trainer and Pokemon and trainer
2) Only works with two sets of stones
3) Limited number of pokemon have the ability to mega evolve due to the rarity of the mega stones
4) Mega evolution didn't exist till AZ fired his weapon in Kalos so most stones are in Kalos

Ash-Greninja
1) No mention and no in-universe explanation to why its only limited to the Greninja line
2) Not explanation to why there haven't been other Pokemon that have gained access to this form in the history of Pokemon
3) No mention how the previous Greninja gained access to this form, there was no mention of it having a trainer.

Most of this shows they just made up the form as the anime went along with no clear planning sometimes this works other times is causes problems.

How does the Bond Phenomenon contradict anything in-universe?

It was never stated that the Bond Phenomenon is limited to the Greninja line. It just so happens that the only two known examples of Pokémon with the Bond Phenomenon ability were both Greninja, but that doesn't mean the ability is exclusive to the Greninja line. When Professor Sycamore was explaining the Bond Phenomenon, his chart didn't shown any one particular Pokémon (it looked more like a diagram or drawing than anything else, in fact).

Again no I didn't miss it dude...

"Bond Phenomenon ability is an ability the Pokémon itself possesses" is never confirmed in the anime and nobody even used it as an explanation till the games comes out and as I said the games and anime canons are different and are not the same.

If a character says "X Pokemon has the ability to mega evolve" do you take it as it having a special ability to mega evolve?

Yes, it is confirmed in the anime. Professor Sycamore outright stated that the Bond Phenomenon is an ability Greninja itself possesses. It's a latent ability of the Pokémon that is triggered by the Pokémon in question having a strong bond with its Trainer. That is your explanation right there.

As Epicocity said, you are within your right to dislike the concept of Ash-Greninja, but you cannot argue that it wasn't explained, even if you refuse to buy the explanation. It may not be the best writing, but Pokémon is not known for being the best-written anime on television.

 

[FrozTKnight]

How does the Bond Phenomenon contradict anything in-universe?

It was never stated that the Bond Phenomenon is limited to the Greninja line. It just so happens that the only two known examples of Pokémon with the Bond Phenomenon ability were both Greninja, but that doesn't mean the ability is exclusive to the Greninja line. When Professor Sycamore was explaining the Bond Phenomenon, his chart didn't shown any one particular Pokémon (it looked more like a diagram or drawing than anything else, in fact).[/QUOTE]

Only 2 Pokemon in the whole Pokemon world to get this transformation is 2 Greninja and no reason was given to as why.

It was never stated that the Bond Phenomenon is limited to the Greninja line

doesn't it make it worse since they the question of why there haven't been other Pokemon have got this form since there are so many of them.

Yes, it is confirmed in the anime. Professor Sycamore outright stated that the Bond Phenomenon is an ability Greninja itself possesses. It's a latent ability of the Pokémon that is triggered by the Pokémon in question having a strong bond with its Trainer. That is your explanation right there.

"If a character says "X Pokemon has the ability to mega evolve" do you take it as it having a special ability to mega evolve?" So Since Sycamore said Dedenne could have ability to Mega evolve they does that mean it has an ability that helps it mega evolve

As Epicocity said, you are within your right to dislike the concept of Ash-Greninja, but you cannot argue that it wasn't explained, even if you refuse to buy the explanation. It may not be the best writing, but Pokémon is not known for being the best-written anime on television.

Do I have to keep quoting my previous messages? Never said it wasn't explained, I said I don't buy the explaination. As it says I never said it wasn't explained.

I don't expect Shakspere or Game of Thrones level story telling from the Pokemon anime, but even kids shows have their own set of rules they follow in their world and stories.

 

[AuraChannelerChris]

Can't we just agree Ash-Greninja's concept is ridiculous and obvious forced anime pandering done wrong that was forced into the mainline games.

 

[LilligantLewis]

Can't we just agree Ash-Greninja's concept is ridiculous and obvious forced anime pandering done wrong that was forced into the mainline games.

It's not because GameFreak came up with the idea.

 

[AuraChannelerChris]

It's not because GameFreak came up with the idea.

Because the anime director wanted it in the first place, and Game Freak conceded.

 

[LilligantLewis]

Because the anime director wanted it in the first place, and Game Freak conceded.

That's not my understanding. My understanding is that GameFreak is the one who actually came up with Ash-Greninja, not anybody in the anime team.

 

[AuraChannelerChris]

That's not my understanding. My understanding is that GameFreak is the one who actually came up with Ash-Greninja, not anybody in the anime team.

They designed Ash-Greninja, but there isn't actual confirmation if they did it because they wanted to or because the director wanted them to do it.

So we can add that as another weird mystery revolving about this sideburned frog of legend.

 

[Yukidoh]

Ash-Greninja (or the very concept) was mostly Tetsuo Yajima's idea.

From the interview:

Yajima wanted to make the bond between Satoshi and Gekkouga a major part of the story, but felt it would be difficult to do so if it had to remain a Gekkouga, so he went to Game Freak, and they came up with the idea of a synchro transformation. It was put in Sun/Moon afterwards, but was created during this discussion between anime staff and GF.

In other words, the whole 'let's make Greninja special and evolve it into something even more special' was his idea. Game Freak just helped him execute/flesh out the idea.

I still don't know why they didn't just bring back Charizard or some other Pokemon instead of introducing this new phenomenon.

 

[AuraChannelerChris]

In other words, it was a commission. Which means it really was their idea but there was no choice but to make said commission "official" by putting it into the games as to avoid taking too many anime liberties (besides wildly choosing fake Shiny colors).

 

[SH65]

Ash-Greninja (or the very concept) was mostly Tetsuo Yajima's idea.

From the interview:



In other words, the whole 'let's make Greninja special and evolve it into something even more special' was his idea. Game Freak just helped him execute/flesh out the idea.

I still don't know why they didn't just bring back Charizard or some other Pokemon instead of introducing this new phenomenon.

Because if they did that they would overshadow Ash's Kalos mons.

 

[Frozocrone]

Not really a plot hole although I guess the whole mastering arc was a little wonky with the feats depicted (which I'll kindly drop here and let that godawful VS thread deal with).

I've always wondered why GF just didn't do Megas for Gen 6 mons (aside Diancie, who no one was getting).

The Alain fascination thing might not have had the same impact though (personally I would have just kept Alain in the Team Flare stuff, it's a pretty big plot hole considering Alain says he's not entering the league and then BAM enters the league. I can't recall whether he said Mega Evolution energy was available or what have you but that was weird).