Is Ash-Greninja a plot hole?

[SinnohEevee]

Charizard returned in the wrong series. He should have returned in XY instead of BW where he did nothing.
Ash could have also Mega Evolved Sceptile, Heracross, and/or Glalie. Instead, they gave Ash a Mega rip-off that lacked justification. It's weird that this game commercial didn't even give the main gimmick of a game to its protagonist.

 

[Epicocity]

Because if they did that they would overshadow Ash's Kalos mons.

This is pretty much what it is. If you bring back an old team member it instantly begins shafting the current squad. It happened in Sinnoh when Noctowl, Donphan, Quilava and Heracross took from team members like Torterra and Staraptor (especially the former). Besides, just imagine the salt then when Charizard or any Mega would have inevitably lost to Alain...

And to answer above, there have only been two reported cases of Bond Phenomenon because of the fact of just how difficult it is to achieve. Not only does it have to win the gene pool, which is incredibly rare to begin with, but then it has to find that one trainer who can draw out that latent power. The odds of that are ridiculously small...

 

[SH65]

Charizard returned in the wrong series. He should have returned in XY instead of BW where he did nothing.
Ash could have also Mega Evolved Sceptile, Heracross, and/or Glalie. Instead, they gave Ash a Mega rip-off that lacked justification. It's weird that this game commercial didn't even give the main gimmick of a game to its protagonist.

People had the Charizard and Sceptile megas and Heracross and Glalie are not so popular that they would come back. And Ash-Greninja would has work better if they space out his arc.

 

[lolipiece]

Charizard returned in the wrong series. He should have returned in XY instead of BW where he did nothing.
Ash could have also Mega Evolved Sceptile, Heracross, and/or Glalie. Instead, they gave Ash a Mega rip-off that lacked justification. It's weird that this game commercial didn't even give the main gimmick of a game to its protagonist.

That's what Alain and all the other Mega Evolution Trainers are for.

Why force Ash to bring back one of his older Pokemon when you can create a new protagonist to promote it for you?

 

[FrozTKnight]

People had the Charizard and Sceptile megas and Heracross and Glalie are not so popular that they would come back. And Ash-Greninja would has work better if they space out his arc.

They had them because the writers gave those megas to other trainers, so don't pretend its set in stone that those trainers will always have megas and Ash wouldn't have got those megas.

Trevor and his Charizard Y was pathetic seriously X wasn't even trying... I was extremely disappointed how they treated Y

And Sawyer didn't need to have Sceptile, he could have have Mega Swampert leaving Ash with Mega Sceptile.

Ash Greninja in the end was created for nothing, the writers and the characters were treating it like some ungodly power that is way better than Mega evolution but still lost to a Mega Charizard X despite having a type advantage (resistance) and worst of all he had to let go of a cool Pokemon because of that power up.

 

[SH65]

They had them because the writers gave those megas to other trainers, so don't pretend its set in stone that those trainers will always have megas and Ash wouldn't have got those megas.

Trevor and his Charizard Y was pathetic seriously X wasn't even trying... I was extremely disappointed how they treated Y

And Sawyer didn't need to have Sceptile, he could have have Mega Swampert leaving Ash with Mega Sceptile.

Ash Greninja in the end was created for nothing, the writers and the characters were treating it like some ungodly power that is way better than Mega evolution but still lost to a Mega Charizard X despite having a type advantage (resistance) and worst of all he had to let go of a cool Pokemon because of that power up.

Giving Ash his old pokemon wouldn't make things better. And as was said giving Ash his old pokemon will only overshadow his Kalos mons and there still a good chance they will still lose to Alain MC-X and then it will be like what was the point of bring them back.

 

[Epicocity]

Ash Greninja in the end was created for nothing, the writers and the characters were treating it like some ungodly power that is way better than Mega evolution but still lost to a Mega Charizard X despite having a type advantage (resistance) and worst of all he had to let go of a cool Pokemon because of that power up.

This was far more fan perception than what the writers were looking to accomplish. They never outright made it stronger than Mega Evolution, merely on par. Even after the battle with Sceptile, Greninja was exhausted, which should have shown then and there they weren't looking to make it more powerful. Instead, it was seen as a kind of possibility never experienced before, which was the reason Lysandre wanted it. He didn't want it for power but because of what it represented in the new world: true connection between people and Pokemon...well, those who remained at least.

And Alain's Charizard was ridiculously strong to begin with, so looking solely at type advantages means nothing (especially in the anime, where type advantage is treated as a potential perk rather than the be-all-end-all).

 

[Navin]

As Epicocity said, you are within your right to dislike the concept of Ash-Greninja, but you cannot argue that it wasn't explained, even if you refuse to buy the explanation. It may not be the best writing, but Pokémon is not known for being the best-written anime on television.

The origins of it were sort of explained, but the actual nature of the phenomenon was still rather vague and plot-convenient or done for coolness sake. I really wish they tried to go somewhere with the pain-sharing mechanics.

 

[SinnohEevee]

That's what Alain and all the other Mega Evolution Trainers are for.

Why force Ash to bring back one of his older Pokemon when you can create a new protagonist to promote it for you?

Alain is only the protag of the ME Specials.
Ash is the main protagonist of the show.

 

[SH65]

Alain is only the protag of the ME Specials.
Ash is the main protagonist of the show.

Alain was still showing off ME so I don't see your point.

 

[SinnohEevee]

The origins of it were sort of explained, but the actual nature of the phenomenon was still rather vague and plot-convenient or done for coolness sake. I really wish they tried to go somewhere with the pain-sharing mechanics.

What do you expect from a show for 5-year olds.
Also, it doesn't matter than Alain was showcasng MEs. Ash is the main protagonist of this game commercial, and ME was the most important gimmick of Gen VI.

 

[SH65]

What do you expect from a show for 5-year olds.
Also, it doesn't matter than Alain was showcasng MEs. Ash is the main protagonist of this game commercial, and ME was the most important gimmick of Gen VI.

So are you saying a show for kids can't have good plot lines? And the only was Ash was getting ME was to bring back one of his old pokemon and in the long run thats hurts his Kalos mons because theres a good chance he'll start using his old pokemon way more than his Kalos mons.

 

[lolipiece]

Alain is only the protag of the ME Specials.
Ash is the main protagonist of the show.

Alain is a recurring character and Ash's main rival for XY.
He may not be the main protag, but he's still a protag. He's one of the most important characters that isn't part of the main quartet.
Ash is under no circumstance required to be the one to promote everything. Other characters exist, too.

And Sawyer didn't need to have Sceptile, he could have have Mega Swampert leaving Ash with Mega Sceptile.
Ash Greninja in the end was created for nothing, the writers and the characters were treating it like some ungodly power that is way better than Mega evolution but still lost to a Mega Charizard X despite having a type advantage (resistance) and worst of all he had to let go of a cool Pokemon because of that power up.

Your logic confuses me. Ash-Greninja was "for nothing" because it lost? Yet you claim he should have been given Sceptile so it could Mega Evolve? I don't see how that's fair.
He was always going to lose, so giving him Mega Sceptile should be just as pointless. Maybe even more so since it would require bringing back an old Pokemon?
(And so what if he gave Greninja up. Even if he wasn't released, he would have still been Oaked and probably never used again.)

 

[FrozTKnight]

Your logic confuses me. Ash-Greninja was "for nothing" because it lost? Yet you claim he should have been given Sceptile so it could Mega Evolve? I don't see how that's fair.
He was always going to lose, so giving him Mega Sceptile should be just as pointless. Maybe even more so since it would require bringing back an old Pokemon?
(And so what if he gave Greninja up. Even if he wasn't released, he would have still been Oaked and probably never used again.)

Ash Greninja in the end was created for nothing, the writers and the characters were treating it like some ungodly power that is way better than Mega evolution but still lost to a Mega Charizard X despite having a type advantage (resistance) and worst of all he had to let go of a cool Pokemon because of that power up.

Did you miss that they hyped it up for nothing so is basically was useless, if you gave Ash a regular mega we won't have this issue since its just a regular mega and the outcome would depend on Ash.

Could you imagine Goku getting SSJ only to get beat by Frieza
Naruto getting his six paths sage form only to loose

Well thats what basically happened with AG, this so called prophesied mystical transformation which is said to be better than mega evolution got beat by a Charizard X

 

[Akkipeddi]

Ash Greninja in the end was created for nothing, the writers and the characters were treating it like some ungodly power that is way better than Mega evolution but still lost to a Mega Charizard X despite having a type advantage (resistance) and worst of all he had to let go of a cool Pokemon because of that power up.

Did you miss that they hyped it up for nothing so is basically was useless, if you gave Ash a regular mega we won't have this issue since its just a regular mega and the outcome would depend on Ash.

Could you imagine Goku getting SSJ only to get beat by Frieza
Naruto getting his six paths sage form only to loose

Well thats what basically happened with AG, this so called prophesied mystical transformation which is said to be better than mega evolution got beat by a Charizard X

As Epicocity said, no, they never stated that this special phenomenon was going to be better than Mega Evolution, but rather, it acted as an alternative to a Mega Evolution for Ash. Also, obviously in universe characters were interested in this Greninja because it was unique and never seen before, not because anyone claimed it had 'godly power'. Also, I don't see how it was created for nothing, since it fulfilled its role of having a major contribution in the Team Flare crisis. Yes, the fact that it lost to a MCX in the final is disappointing, but this special phenomenon's major role was always meant for the Flare crisis, so just because it lost the league doesn't make it for nothing.

And personally, I was fine with Greninja's 'release' at the end, since it was still tied to the plot and its role of being Kalos savior, than simply leaving it at Oak's like any other regular Pokémon.

 

[Kuzehiko]

Indeed, it was and the fact they got rid of it when it was not required anymore proves it. Makes you wonder if hadn't they given it that transformation Greninja would have stayed with Ash and his team.

 

[Satomine Night]

Indeed, it was and the fact they got rid of it when it was not required anymore proves it. Makes you wonder if hadn't they given it that transformation Greninja wouldn't probably have left Ash and his team.

How does the writers "getting rid of" Greninja when it was "not required anymore" prove that Ash-Greninja was a plot hole?

 

[SinnohEevee]

So are you saying a show for kids can't have good plot lines? And the only was Ash was getting ME was to bring back one of his old pokemon and in the long run thats hurts his Kalos mons because theres a good chance he'll start using his old pokemon way more than his Kalos mons.

It can have good writing, it's just that it doesn't need to as little kids only care about seeing their beloved monsters on TV and flashy stuff.

Also, having Ash use a Mega is still promoting Gen VI.

 

[SH65]

Also, having Ash use a Mega is still promoting Gen VI.

The only way Ash was getting a mega in Kalos was to bring back a old pokemon and that was not going to work.

 

[Satomine Night]

It can have good writing, it's just that it doesn't need to as little kids only care about seeing their beloved monsters on TV and flashy stuff.

Isn't that an unfair assumption to make? I know when I was a kid, I valued good writing and good stories, and I'm sure I was not the only child my age to feel that way. I may not have been able to appreciate good writing as much as I do now that I'm older, but the Pokémon episodes I remember the most from my childhood aren't the ones with the flashy battles, but the ones that had an emotional impact, which can be attributed to the writing.

Also, having Ash use a Mega is still promoting Gen VI.

Yeah, Ash having a Mega is promoting Gen VI, but since Diancie was the only Gen VI Pokémon to get a Mega Evolution, giving Ash a Mega would have involved bringing back one of his old Pokémon, which would have lead to that Pokémon overshadowing his Kalos team—especially if he kept that old Pokémon on his team for a decent amount of time. Ash's job as the protagonist is to market the current generation with his team roster, and the current generation's Pokémon (should) take priority over previous generation Pokémon.