Is Ash-Greninja a plot hole?

[AuraChannelerChris]

Mega Evolution is a Gen VI mechanic...that isn't available to Gen VI Pokemon except one but that one is a Legendary, ironically. In the anime, that means sacking any new Gen VI team member for an old one.

 

[SH65]

Mega Evolution is a Gen VI mechanic...that isn't available to Gen VI Pokemon except one but that one is a Legendary, ironically. In the anime, that means sacking any new Gen VI team member for an old one.

And thats my point sans Pikachu Ash's other 5 slots are filled with pokemon from the gen he's in there no room for older pokemon.

 

[SinnohEevee]

I also blame Game Freak for that. Why didn't they give Megas to Gen VI Pokémon other than Diancie? They really screwed the Pokémon of the current Gen.

 

[AuraChannelerChris]

I also blame Game Freak for that. Why didn't they give Megas to Gen VI Pokémon other than Diancie? They really screwed the Pokémon of the current Gen.

It's heavily implied Matsuda didn't like Mega Evolution either, which is why they tried to fix things with Z-Crystals in Gen VII.

 

[SH65]

I also blame Game Freak for that. Why didn't they give Megas to Gen VI Pokémon other than Diancie? They really screwed the Pokémon of the current Gen.

That's something I don't get you make ME a thing in gen 6 and the only pokemon from gen 6 that can use ME is a legendary.

 

[Akkipeddi]

It's heavily implied Matsuda didn't like Mega Evolution either, which is why they tried to fix things with Z-Crystals in Gen VII.

And yet it's ironic how that has turned out to be a bigger mess since majority of the fanbase prefer Mega Evolution a lot more to Z-Moves.

 

[SinnohEevee]

That's something I don't get you make ME a thing in gen 6 and the only pokemon from gen 6 that can use ME is a legendary.

What's worse is that you can only get Diancie by an event as it's a Mythical.

 

[Yukidoh]

Yeah, Ash having a Mega is promoting Gen VI, but since Diancie was the only Gen VI Pokémon to get a Mega Evolution, giving Ash a Mega would have involved bringing back one of his old Pokémon, which would have lead to that Pokémon overshadowing his Kalos team—especially if he kept that old Pokémon on his team for a decent amount of time. Ash's job as the protagonist is to market the current generation with his team roster, and the current generation's Pokémon (should) take priority over previous generation Pokémon.

I have two questions.

1. Are you claiming Ash-Greninja didn't overshadow the rest of Ash's Kalos Pokemon? And if you're claiming it didn't overshadow the rest of them, then how would have Charizard overshadowed the rest of the team more than Greninja? Just by being there? I don't get your logic. Are you referring to Charizard's popularity? I'm not quite certain. (because certainly just by being non-gen 6 doesn't magically make Charizard overshadow the rest of the team)
2. Does Mega Charizard Y not technically count as gen VI promotion? Mega Evolution?

 

[Satomine Night]

I have two questions.

1. Are you claiming Ash-Greninja didn't overshadow the rest of Ash's Kalos Pokemon? And if you're claiming it didn't overshadow the rest of them, then how would have Charizard overshadowed the rest of the team more than Greninja? Just by being there? I don't get your logic. Are you referring to Charizard's popularity? I'm not quite certain. (because certainly just by being non-gen 6 doesn't magically make Charizard overshadow the rest of the team)
2. Does Mega Charizard Y not technically count as gen VI promotion? Mega Evolution?

1. No, I'm not claiming Greninja/Ash-Greninja didn't overshadow the rest of Ash's Kalos Pokémon. The difference is that Greninja is a Gen VI Pokémon, whereas Charizard and Sceptile are not Gen VI Pokémon. It's one thing if a Gen VI Pokémon overshadows other Gen VI Pokémon, because at least it's still a Pokémon from the current generation; but it's another thing if a previous generation Pokémon overshadows current generation Pokémon.

2. Mega Evolution is a Gen VI gimmick, and including it is Gen VI promotion, but the Pokémon themselves (in base form) are not Gen VI Pokémon.

 

[Yukidoh]

1. No, I'm not claiming Greninja/Ash-Greninja didn't overshadow the rest of Ash's Kalos Pokémon. The difference is that Greninja is a Gen VI Pokémon, whereas Charizard and Sceptile are not Gen VI Pokémon. It's one thing if a Gen VI Pokémon overshadows other Gen VI Pokémon, because at least it's still a Pokémon from the current generation; but it's another thing if a previous generation Pokémon overshadows current generation Pokémon.

2. Mega Evolution is a Gen VI gimmick, and including it is Gen VI promotion, but the Pokémon themselves (in base form) are not Gen VI Pokémon.

I guess I just personally don't see an issue with it.

I would see an issue if Charizard or Sceptile came back and then never evolved and they hogged all the spotlight for themselves in their basic forms. However, I feel like simply by mega evolving they'd have been promoting the new gen, their inclusion would have felt relevant to the story, and there would have been no need for a contrived phenomenon. As an added bonus, Ash wouldn't have felt any more special than the other characters (which is one of the big problems I generally had with the XY anime - the special treatment Ash received from everyone, and the way everyone treated him).

From my point of view, a normal Mega Evolution would have caused way less damage and would have simply felt more organic. Because, let's be serious, which one feels more natural:

1) Ash gets a Mega Evolution like the other trainers in a region focused on Mega Evolution, or
2) Ash gets a special transformation unlike Mega Evolution which nobody has seemingly had in thousands of years and which is so vaguely defined and at times illogical.

 

[SinnohEevee]

Can Mega Evolutions count as Gen VI Pokémon?
Or you know, Ash could have used some of the reserve for the League.

 

[Yukidoh]

Can Mega Evolutions count as Gen VI Pokémon?

I really don't see why not. They're Pokemon that made their debut in gen 6 after all.

 

[Satomine Night]

I guess I just personally don't see an issue with it.

I would see an issue if Charizard or Sceptile came back and then never evolved and they hogged all the spotlight for themselves in their basic forms. However, I feel like simply by mega evolving they'd have been promoting the new gen, their inclusion would have felt relevant to the story, and there would have been no need for a contrived phenomenon. As an added bonus, Ash wouldn't have felt any more special than the other characters (which is one of the big problems I generally had with the XY anime - the special treatment Ash received from everyone, and the way everyone treated him).

From my point of view, a normal Mega Evolution would have caused way less damage and would have simply felt more organic. Because, let's be serious, which one feels more natural:

1) Ash gets a Mega Evolution like the other trainers in a region focused on Mega Evolution, or
2) Ash gets a special transformation unlike Mega Evolution which nobody has seemingly had in thousands of years and which is so vaguely defined and at times illogical.

I probably should have clarified that I wasn't expressing my own personal opinion as much as I was providing a possible explanation as to why some people (and perhaps the writers) object to one of Ash's older Pokémon returning and getting Mega Evolution.

I'm not too keen on Ash's current generation team being overshadowed by the return of an older Pokémon, especially one as popular as Charizard or Sceptile (whose very presence might cause them to overshadow the rest of Ash's team). However, I do think Ash should have gotten a Mega Evolution; it seems rather silly that the show's protagonist didn't get to showcase the main gimmick of Gen VI, when promoting the current generation and its gimmicks is one of his most important meta roles as the protagonist.

I guess I'm sort of on the fence on the issue.

 

[SH65]

I feel like Ash-Greninja would had work a lot better if the arc was more spaced out starting after the 6th gym battle.

 

[Kuzehiko]

How does the writers "getting rid of" Greninja when it was "not required anymore" prove that Ash-Greninja was a plot hole?

I am sorry. I didn't read correctly.
I though thread title questioned if was Greninja a plot device. Greninja certainly is not a plot-hole but it has caused plot holes. As a fact of matter, We know Ash's strongest bond with a Pokémon was not and will never be Greninja.

 

[AshxSatoshi]

I am sorry. I didn't read correctly.
I though thread title questioned if was Greninja a plot device. Greninja certainly is not a plot-hole but it has caused plot holes. As a fact of matter, We know Ash's strongest bond with a Pokémon was not and will never be Greninja.

This. Not even considering Pikachu one can argue Ash had a closer bond with Infernape to be quite frank.

 

[Epicocity]

I am sorry. I didn't read correctly.
I though thread title questioned if was Greninja a plot device. Greninja certainly is not a plot-hole but it has caused plot holes. As a fact of matter, We know Ash's strongest bond with a Pokémon was not and will never be Greninja.

This. Not even considering Pikachu one can argue Ash had a closer bond with Infernape to be quite frank.

It's like the both of you haven't paid attention to the thread or the show: it is explicitly stated in the show that it has nothing to do with that. It's not that Greninja has a stronger bond than Ash and Pikachu or Ash and Insert Pokemon Here. It is merely that they had a strong bond at all and that Greninja had this power. That's it. Nothing saying that Ash had a stronger bond with him than others. They made it pretty inherently clear from the dialogue alone...

 

[AshxSatoshi]

It's like the both of you haven't paid attention to the thread or the show: it is explicitly stated in the show that it has nothing to do with that. It's not that Greninja has a stronger bond than Ash and Pikachu or Ash and Insert Pokemon Here. It is merely that they had a strong bond at all and that Greninja had this power. That's it. Nothing saying that Ash had a stronger bond with him than others. They made it pretty inherently clear from the dialogue alone...

Nowhere in my post did I say the BF was dependent on Ash, so I don’t know where your assumptions are coming from. My critique is that from my perspective we didn’t see Ash bond with Greninja ENOUGH like he’s done with some of his other Pokémon for me personally to buy into this “oh well they had a really strong friendship so now they have this random power that’s supposedly was there this whole time”

 

[Kuzehiko]

It's like the both of you haven't paid attention to the thread

I didn't.
Too long, sorry.

or the show: it is explicitly stated in the show that it has nothing to do with that. It's not that Greninja has a stronger bond than Ash and Pikachu or Ash and Insert Pokemon Here. It is merely that they had a strong bond at all and that Greninja had this power. That's it. Nothing saying that Ash had a stronger bond with him than others. They made it pretty inherently clear from the dialogue alone...

Take a look at what says Ash-Greninja's official profile:

"Ash's Greninja takes on a mysterious new appearance in the latest season! Ash-Greninja is the form that Greninja takes when the bond between it and Ash is raised to the limit. The strength of their bond changes Greninja's appearance, and it takes on the characteristic look of Ash's attire. This phenomenon is also said to have happened just once several hundred years ago in the Kalos region, but it remains shrouded in mystery."

"Raised to the limit"
"Happened just once several hundred years ago" I mean this should be self explanatory. It must be the strongest bond lf only happens once "several hunded years".


The anime explanation for Ash-Greninja states the transformations come to happen when the bond became maximum level where they are completely synchronized.

This suggests what I pointed out. Also, if Ash's bond with his other Pokémon ( name it Pikachu, Charizard or Infernape) have been stronger than the one with Greninja then they would have unlocked any similar form but they didn't and the turth is up until now Greninja is the one to have achieved such thing.

Inb4 In the show it was neither denied Ash's bond with Greninja is not the strongest. Morever, there are more proof that suggest it is.

 

[Satomine Night]

Take a look at what says Ash-Greninja's official profile:


"Raised to the limit"
"Happened just once several hundred years ago" I mean this should be self explanatory. It must be the strongest bond lf only happens once "several hunded years".


The anime explanation for Ash-Greninja states the transformations come to happen when the bond became maximum level where they are completely synchronized.

This suggests what I pointed out. Also, if Ash's bond with his other Pokémon ( name it Pikachu, Charizard or Infernape) have been stronger than the one with Greninja then they would have unlocked any similar form but the turth is up until now Greninja is the one to have achieved such thing.

Inb4 In the show it was neither denied Ash's bond with Greninja is not the strongest. Morever, there are more proof that suggest it is.

When did the anime state that the transformation happens when the bond between Ash and Greninja reached maximum level? As I recall, the anime stated the transformation is possible because Ash and Greninja have a strong bond, but it happens when the two of them are completely synchronized. I don't recall the anime mentioning that their bond has to reach a certain level for that to happen. Their synchronization, yes, but not their bond. I don't think many people here would try to claim that Ash's bond with Greninja is stronger than his bond with Pikachu; and I didn't get that impression from the anime, especially not after it was explained that the Bond Phenomenon is tied to Greninja's ability, not just to its bond with Ash.

The fact that the Bond Phenomenon transformation happens so infrequently can be easily explained by the Bond Phenomenon trait/ability itself being incredibly rare. Then, once one finds a Pokémon with that incredibly rare trait, that Pokémon has to achieve an incredibly strong bond with its Trainer in order to activate the transformation.