Is Ash-Greninja a plot hole?

[Kuzehiko]

When did the anime state that the transformation happens when the bond between Ash and Greninja reached maximum level? As I recall, the anime stated the transformation is possible because Ash and Greninja have a strong bond, but it happens when the two of them are completely synchronized. I don't recall the anime mentioning that their bond has to reach a certain level for that to happen. Their synchronization, yes, but not their bond. I don't think many people here would try to claim that Ash's bond with Greninja is stronger than his bond with Pikachu; and I didn't get that impression from the anime, especially not after it was explained that the Bond Phenomenon is tied to Greninja's ability, not just to its bond with Ash.

The fact that the Bond Phenomenon transformation happens so infrequently can be easily explained by the Bond Phenomenon trait/ability itself being incredibly rare. Then, once one finds a Pokémon with that incredibly rare trait, that Pokémon has to achieve an incredibly strong bond with its Trainer in order to activate the transformation.

That is what I recall from watching the show years ago. I might be wrong or not though. I am gonna rewatch it. However, official profile state "Raised to the limit" which is pretty much the same in my eyes. Ash and Greninja's bond raises to the limit thus synchronizing.

And I said it's a suggestion to the opposite claim that Greninja and Ash's bond is not the strongest due to it have never been disproven.

 

[SinnohEevee]

That is what I recall from watching the show years ago. I might be wrong or not though. I am gonna rewatch it. However, official profile state "Raised to the limit" which is pretty much the same in my eyes. Ash and Greninja's bond raises to the limit thus synchronizing.

And I said it's a suggestion to the opposite claim that Greninja and Ash's bond is not the strongest due to it have never been disproven.

Ash would never leave Pikachu away or make him rot in a lab.

Ash-Greninja is possible because only Greninja had the special snowflake Ability "Battle Bond". Heck, Pokémon with this Ability can't even breed.

I guess they didn't have Ash-Pikachu because the latter can evolve (though, Game Freak barely cares about Raichu).

 

[Kuzehiko]

Ash would never leave Pikachu away or make him rot in a lab.

Ash-Greninja is possible because only Greninja had the special snowflake Ability "Battle Bond". Heck, Pokémon with this Ability can't even breed.

I guess they didn't have Ash-Pikachu because the latter can evolve (though, Game Freak barely cares about Raichu).

You mean because Pikachu is not a fully evolved Pokemon? That should be the reason, yeah.

They didn't choose Greninja just because of that but also he is a starter and the starters are the closest Pokemon to Ash in every region or most of them at least. The other reasons you mentioned make sense as well.

 

[Epicocity]

That is what I recall from watching the show years ago. I might be wrong or not though. I am gonna rewatch it. However, official profile state "Raised to the limit" which is pretty much the same in my eyes. Ash and Greninja's bond raises to the limit thus synchronizing.

And I said it's a suggestion to the opposite claim that Greninja and Ash's bond is not the strongest due to it have never been disproven.

Even if you take it that way, all that means is "when their bond reaches its maximum potential". That says nothing of Ash's bond with his other Pokemon, and just specifically the bond between him and Greninja. Now, if it said "exceeds all other bonds" I could see the confusion, but this is specifically referring to just Ash and Greninja.

 

[LilligantLewis]

It's heavily implied Matsuda didn't like Mega Evolution either, which is why they tried to fix things with Z-Crystals in Gen VII.

So we're totally done with Megas? Ugh, how disappointing and ridiculous. We're forever going to be stuck with just Megas from Gens I-VI.

Ash would never leave Pikachu away or make him rot in a lab.

Ash-Greninja is possible because only Greninja had the special snowflake Ability "Battle Bond". Heck, Pokémon with this Ability can't even breed.

I guess they didn't have Ash-Pikachu because the latter can evolve (though, Game Freak barely cares about Raichu).

GF gave Raichu an Alolan form with a totally unique typing -- I doubt they don't care about Raichu.

 

[CMButch]

1) Between the hundered years when the first Greninja achieved the transformation and Ash-Greninja there have been no other trainer has had a mutual trust with their Pokemon to trigger this transformation? I would call BS on this because through all the seasons of Pokemon we have seen several Pokemon and trainers having similar close bonds to their partners like Ash. At
least there should a few instances of this transformation being attained within that 100 year gap since the Pokemon world is extremely large.

Dude, Ash is main character of course this "inconvenient" stuff will happen to him. Why did that thief murder Batman's parents? Why did Goku achieve UI.Why is Kurama sealed inside Naruto etc.

2) So they haven't given any evidence to suggest the transform is limited to only Greninja. So the question rises why didn't this Ash-Pokemon activate before? He has had I feel more stronger bond with Pikachu, Charizard and Infernape yet they didn't achieve the form or is the anime telling me those bonds weren't strong as Greninja's before those 3 went through hell with Ash even more than Greninja. And if they did want it be exclusive to Greninja, it pretty stupid since they didn't explain what makes Greninja as a Pokemon special for it be the only have the transformation. Mega Pokemon atleast have the explanation of needing the mega stone.

Again, because of "plot-inconvenience", why did Goku achieve silver hair while Beerus couldn't do it in 1000 years? How come Superman is that strong and other members of JL are not etc. They did explain it was special Greninja. But that doesn't mean Ash has stronger bond with G than he has with Pikachu.

I brought up 3 a year ago, like if Greninja got hurt would SM Ash feel it? Ash didn't feel a thing, so obviously Greninja didn't get hurt xd.

 

[FrozTKnight]

Those have are explainable but...

Dude, Ash is main character of course this "inconvenient" stuff will happen to him. Why did that thief murder Batman's parents? Why did Goku achieve UI.Why is Kurama sealed inside Naruto etc.


Again, because of "plot-inconvenience", why did Goku achieve silver hair while Beerus couldn't do it in 1000 years? How come Superman is that strong and other members of JL are not etc. They did explain it was special Greninja. But that doesn't mean Ash has stronger bond with G than he has with Pikachu.

I brought up 3 a year ago, like if Greninja got hurt would SM Ash feel it? Ash didn't feel a thing, so obviously Greninja didn't get hurt xd.

Wtf are you talking about? Batman's origin story is nothing to question, if Batman suddenly says he has sonar hearing just because he is Batman is where you call BS

Kuruma was explained, tailed beasts are massive concentrations of chakra that villages wanted to keep the power balance (like nukes) which are sealed in human host (Jinjuriki) using a sealing jutsu, and during a incident (not going to explain it since it would take way to long) Kuruma escaped and was sealed (half of him) in Naruto. This was thoughly explained.

I don't question MUI because this is Goku and this isn't the first time Goku had gained something out of reach out of other characters, he learned the Kamehameha in a few seconds after seeing it, he learned to control SSJ in during the gap of the Frieza and Cell Saga, learned the Kaio-Ken. And he had been training throughout Super to achieve this with Vegeta, and he did when he was pushed to his limits. Also he hasn't mastered the form, if he did he would be go into it anytime he wants. And Beerus was a damm lazy alien cat who rarely trained.

 

[LilligantLewis]

Those have are explainable but...




Wtf are you talking about? Batman's origin story is nothing to question, if Batman suddenly says he has sonar hearing just because he is Batman is where you call BS

Kuruma was explained, tailed beasts are massive concentrations of chakra that villages wanted to keep the power balance (like nukes) which are sealed in human host (Jinjuriki) using a sealing jutsu, and during a incident (not going to explain it since it would take way to long) Kuruma escaped and was sealed (half of him) in Naruto. This was thoughly explained.

I don't question MUI because this is Goku and this isn't the first time Goku had gained something out of reach out of other characters, he learned the Kamehameha in a few seconds after seeing it, he learned to control SSJ in during the gap of the Frieza and Cell Saga, learned the Kaio-Ken. And he had been training throughout Super to achieve this with Vegeta, and he did when he was pushed to his limits. Also he hasn't mastered the form, if he did he would be go into it anytime he wants. And Beerus was a damm lazy alien cat who rarely trained.

If you're saying all these are explainable, then how come the in-show explanation by Professor Sycamore isn't enough for you? What makes these different? They're all just in-show explanations.

 

[FrozTKnight]

If you're saying all these are explainable, then how come the in-show explanation by Professor Sycamore isn't enough for you? What makes these different? They're all just in-show explanations.

Its a vague comment on how Greninja is special, nobody even used the "it's the special ability" Greninja has until the Pokemon was available in the games and I don't use the games to explain the anime because each is their own world with different continuities, and more questions to why did this greninja get this ability to transform (and no I am not contradicting myself by using the word because it has different meaning outside the Pokemon world), why haven't their been other Greninja with this form, why is it limited to the greninja line and other stuff I have mention in the thread I don't want to go into depth again.(and I have explained other methods to allow it to make more sense)

I don't question the nine tails because Kishimoto went in depth when explaining how everything works over the course of Naruto and Shippuden (720 episodes and 700 chapters of ground work.) Same for DB, Toyirama improvised most of his work but he still tried to stay consistent.

 

[AuraChannelerChris]

So many main characters in other media will of course get inconvenient stuff happening to them, but at least their stuff is way more plausible to believe than the stuff that happens to Ash (except maybe the stupidity that was Naruto's strange justified upbringing).

For one, they acknowledge the passage of time. That right there is a huge logical point Ash will never comprehend.

 

[Satomine Night]

Its a vague comment on how Greninja is special, nobody even used the "it's the special ability" Greninja has until the Pokemon was available in the games and I don't use the games to explain the anime because each is their own world with different continuities, and more questions to why did this greninja get this ability to transform (and no I am not contradicting myself by using the word because it has different meaning outside the Pokemon world), why haven't their been other Greninja with this form, why is it limited to the greninja line and other stuff I have mention in the thread I don't want to go into depth again.(and I have explained other methods to allow it to make more sense)

I don't question the nine tails because Kishimoto went in depth when explaining how everything works over the course of Naruto and Shippuden (720 episodes and 700 chapters of ground work.) Same for DB, Toyirama improvised most of his work but he still tried to stay consistent.

You don't have to use the games to explain the anime, because the anime itself provided an explanation. Professor Sycamore outright said that the Bond Phenomenon is an ability Greninja itself possesses, and it's that ability that makes the Ash-Greninja transformation possible. It wasn't a vague comment.

It was never confirmed that the Bond Phenomenon is limited to the Greninja line. Just because the only instances shown in the anime itself were both Greninja does not automatically mean the ability is limited to the Greninja line. The number of Pokémon who have displayed the Bond Phenomenon ability in the past was not really relevant to the story (it didn't affect Ash and his Greninja). It would have been nice to know how Ash's Greninja got the ability, but it was heavily implied that it was something it was born with, and that's all the explanation the target audience really needs to know. The Pokémon anime has never been the type of show to offer super in-depth, complicated explanations as to how things work; after all, that would eventually bore the target audience (and probably some of the periphery demographic, too).

 

[Epicocity]

You don't have to use the games to explain the anime, because the anime itself provided an explanation. Professor Sycamore outright said that the Bond Phenomenon is an ability Greninja itself possesses, and it's that ability that makes the Ash-Greninja transformation possible. It wasn't a vague comment.

It was never confirmed that the Bond Phenomenon is limited to the Greninja line. Just because the only instances shown in the anime itself were both Greninja does not automatically mean the ability is limited to the Greninja line. The number of Pokémon who have displayed the Bond Phenomenon ability in the past was not really relevant to the story (it didn't affect Ash and his Greninja). It would have been nice to know how Ash's Greninja got the ability, but it was heavily implied that it was something it was born with, and that's all the explanation the target audience really needs to know. The Pokémon anime has never been the type of show to offer super in-depth, complicated explanations as to how things work; after all, that would eventually bore the target audience (and probably some of the periphery demographic, too).

Even leaving the term "target audience" out of it, it's really all that's needed. Greninja never had his ability confirmed, so it could stand to logical reason that this would be its ability. Does anyone really need to know how Greninja got this ability? Would it actually affect the plot in any way? Like you said, if knowing the number of Pokemon with it from the past wouldn't affect anything, why would knowing how Greninja was born with it?

Truthfully, he seems to just not like Ash-Greninja, and as a result sees it as unexplained or devaluing other parts of the show when it's really not...

 

[CMButch]

Those have are explainable but...

Wtf are you talking about? Batman's origin story is nothing to question, if Batman suddenly says he has sonar hearing just because he is Batman is where you call BS

Kuruma was explained, tailed beasts are massive concentrations of chakra that villages wanted to keep the power balance (like nukes) which are sealed in human host (Jinjuriki) using a sealing jutsu, and during a incident (not going to explain it since it would take way to long) Kuruma escaped and was sealed (half of him) in Naruto. This was thoughly explained.

I don't question MUI because this is Goku and this isn't the first time Goku had gained something out of reach out of other characters, he learned the Kamehameha in a few seconds after seeing it, he learned to control SSJ in during the gap of the Frieza and Cell Saga, learned the Kaio-Ken. And he had been training throughout Super to achieve this with Vegeta, and he did when he was pushed to his limits. Also he hasn't mastered the form, if he did he would be go into it anytime he wants. And Beerus was a damm lazy alien cat who rarely trained.

You missed my point. Bruce Wayne became Batman because his parents are killed.It's inconvenient because he's MC. Of course something like that would happen to him because he's main character. Why it didn't happen to another couple hundred billionares? Because they're not MC.Same way Ash got special Greninja. Why didn't Tobias get that special Greninja? Because he's not MC.
But problem is why is Kurama sealed inside Naruto? I am not talking about explanation of that. I am talking about that all this did happen to trigger Naruto's story since he's the star of his own show, just like Ash's a star in Pokemon anime...thus he got special Greninja.
Goku getting UI/MUI is as big as Ash getting special Greninja and getting A-G. Both are inconvenient to getting major power boost without any big effort. It took Beerus 1000 years to get UI. Goku mastered it in 20 minutes. Goku is in MUI probably around Beerus's level.Ash got Greninja.. got A-G and A-G mastered A-G form in under a year. While Pikachu is there with Ash over 20 years and suddenly special Greninja overpowered Pikachu by the end of XYZ... despite Pikachu training and battling for 20 years and Greninja( as Froakie) did for nearly 3 years.

 

[Nightlingbolt]

See, what bothers me about Ash-Greninja is, it's clearly a blatant copout to avoid giving Ash a Mega! I mean, how hard would it have been to have Ash find a Sceptilite, recall Sceptile so he can use it, which there's PRECEDENT FOR WITH ASH GETTING CHARIZARD BACK IN UNOVA, give Sawyer a Mega Swampert instead in reference to Groudon and Kyogre, and establish the Sawyer/Swampert < Ash/Sceptile < Alain/Charizard hierarchy so we're not cockteased with expectations of Ash winning the Kalos League?! I could forgive them if they had put actual EFFORT into the whole idea and made Bond Phenomenon apply to Chesnaught and Delphox as well and explain the concept through Dexio and Sina, or even handwave it as a something akin to Rayquaza's mikado organ! NOPE! They just HAD to go full Mary-Sue with Ash and give him a power that LITERALLY NO OTHER TRAINER IN THE WORLD HAS JUST TO SATISFY THEIR BULLSHIT STATUS QUO!!! In fact, it's to the point where I will NEVER use the Froakie line in a playthrough again! It's THAT ****ING BAD!!!

 

[AuraChannelerChris]

See, what bothers me about Ash-Greninja is, it's clearly a blatant copout to avoid giving Ash a Mega! I mean, how hard would it have been to have Ash find a Sceptilite, recall Sceptile so he can use it, which there's PRECEDENT FOR WITH ASH GETTING CHARIZARD BACK IN UNOVA, give Sawyer a Mega Swampert instead in reference to Groudon and Kyogre, and establish the Sawyer/Swampert < Ash/Sceptile < Alain/Charizard hierarchy so we're not cockteased with expectations of Ash winning the Kalos League?! I could forgive them if they had put actual EFFORT into the whole idea and made Bond Phenomenon apply to Chesnaught and Delphox as well and explain the concept through Dexio and Sina, or even handwave it as a something akin to Rayquaza's mikado organ! NOPE! They just HAD to go full Mary-Sue with Ash and give him a power that LITERALLY NO OTHER TRAINER IN THE WORLD HAS JUST TO SATISFY THEIR BULLSHIT STATUS QUO!!! In fact, it's to the point where I will NEVER use the Froakie line in a playthrough again! It's THAT ****ING BAD!!!

Because that would have required call backs to the obvious past, which the writers somehow forgot despite having glaring reminders in front of their sketches. Ash never once told his rivals he owned his own Charizard and Sceptile (or else they would have married him given how they held him on top of a golden trophy stand).

 

[Shadao]

See, what bothers me about Ash-Greninja is, it's clearly a blatant copout to avoid giving Ash a Mega! I mean, how hard would it have been to have Ash find a Sceptilite, recall Sceptile so he can use it, which there's PRECEDENT FOR WITH ASH GETTING CHARIZARD BACK IN UNOVA, give Sawyer a Mega Swampert instead in reference to Groudon and Kyogre, and establish the Sawyer/Swampert < Ash/Sceptile < Alain/Charizard hierarchy so we're not cockteased with expectations of Ash winning the Kalos League?! I could forgive them if they had put actual EFFORT into the whole idea and made Bond Phenomenon apply to Chesnaught and Delphox as well and explain the concept through Dexio and Sina, or even handwave it as a something akin to Rayquaza's mikado organ! NOPE! They just HAD to go full Mary-Sue with Ash and give him a power that LITERALLY NO OTHER TRAINER IN THE WORLD HAS JUST TO SATISFY THEIR BULLSHIT STATUS QUO!!! In fact, it's to the point where I will NEVER use the Froakie line in a playthrough again! It's THAT ****ING BAD!!!

Blame GameFreak for not actually focusing on Kalos Pokémon. No Mega Stones for them, not even for Kalos Starter.

It's as if they were too focus on Gen I and III nostalgia to be emphasizing on the new Pokémon for their own games.

Oh, and GameFreak was the one who came up with Battle Bond. Here's hoping they would expand upon it in a later game.

 

[AuraChannelerChris]

Blame GameFreak for not actually focusing on Kalos Pokémon. No Mega Stones for them, not even for Kalos Starter.

It's as if they were too focus on Gen I and III nostalgia to be emphasizing on the new Pokémon for their own games.

Oh, and GameFreak was the one who came up with Battle Bond. Here's hoping they would expand upon it in a later game.

Mega Stones were created for the sole purpose to aid old Pokemon get stronger (and destroy new Gen evolutions, which Eevee avoided). This of course had its fair share of issues to representation and gameplay, but this is something the writers could have avoided themselves in their fan fi-I mean, story but didn't because...they are weird.

Game Freak came up with the ability, but this was after the writers asked them for help just to make some sort of official power up for Ash and his Greninja without being pulled from a butt (poor and holed-up anime explanation aside...), which in turn was actually the writers' idea, which they transmuted from "Battle Bond" to the very strange "Bond Phenomenon."

 

[Shadao]

Mega Stones were created for the sole purpose to aid old Pokemon get stronger (and destroy new Gen evolutions, which Eevee avoided). This of course had its fair share of issues to representation and gameplay, but this is something the writers could have avoided themselves in their fan fi-I mean, story but didn't because...they are weird.

Game Freak came up with the ability, but this was after the writers asked them for help just to make some sort of official power up for Ash and his Greninja without being pulled from a butt (poor and holed-up anime explanation aside...), which in turn was actually the writers' idea, which they transmuted from "Battle Bond" to the very strange "Bond Phenomenon."

Battle Bond is described as:

Defeating an opposing Pokémon strengthens the Pokémon's bond with its Trainer, and it becomes Ash-Greninja. Water Shuriken gets more powerful.

It was GameFreak who suggested synchro-evolution for Ash and Greninja. And establish that the basis for it is bond between trainer and Pokémon. The anime works off of that. GameFreak only added the "defeating an opposing Pokémon" first for gameplay balance (as an Ash-Greninja activated from the start would make things too easy) while the Anime forgoes that as there as Ash-Greninja needs to be activated for training without being handicapped for the need of two opposing Pokémon.

Mega Stones is a concept that could have expanded in future games. But due to Kalos being cut short, we never had a chance for Kalos Pokémon to get what their generation's gimmick was and subsequently, Ash's story doesn't lend itself that easily to Mega Evolution. That I blame on GameFreak because I know they had ideas for a third game with Zygarde and what not.

 

[Satomine Night]

It was GameFreak who suggested synchro-evolution for Ash and Greninja. And establish that the basis for it is bond between trainer and Pokémon. The anime works off of that. GameFreak only added the "defeating an opposing Pokémon" first for gameplay balance (as an Ash-Greninja activated from the start would make things too easy) while the Anime forgoes that as there as Ash-Greninja needs to be activated for training without being handicapped for the need of two opposing Pokémon.

GameFreak may have come up with the idea for Ash-Greninja/Bond Phenomenon/Battle Bond, but it was the anime writers who approached them for an idea in the first place. In other words, the idea to make Ash's Greninja special and unique was the writers' idea, not the game developers'. So, technically, Bond Phenomenon is an anime creation that was later incorporated into the games.

 

[Epicocity]

GameFreak may have come up with the idea for Ash-Greninja/Bond Phenomenon/Battle Bond, but it was the anime writers who approached them for an idea in the first place. In other words, the idea to make Ash's Greninja special and unique was the writers' idea, not the game developers'. So, technically, Bond Phenomenon is an anime creation that was later incorporated into the games.

I would say, to be more accurate, is that the creation was a creation for both, however, it debuted in the anime first and then debuted in the games, since it was really a joint effort overall. Still GF's fault for not giving the current gen Megas and avoiding what seems to have been this mess in the first place (not that I, personally, think it's an issue, but others do).