Is Ash-Greninja a plot hole?

[Yukidoh]

I will never not be upset over the fact they missed the perfect opportunity to:

a) bring back Ash's Charizard
b) mega evolve it
c) have Ash's Mega Charizard Y fight Alan's Mega Charizard X.

No, no, this random Trevor guy had to get it. Because why not?

It seemed like such an obvious path to take and it would have even made more sense.

 

[FrozTKnight]

I will never not be upset over the fact they missed the perfect opportunity to:

a) bring back Ash's Charizard
b) mega evolve it
c) have Ash's Mega Charizard Y fight Alan's Mega Charizard X.

No, no, this random Trevor guy had to get it. Because why not?

It seemed like such an obvious path to take and it would have even made more sense.

I though it was a missed oppurtunity to make some of Ash's old Pokemon relevant again Charizard and Sceptile have tons of moments too shine but his other Pokemon that have megas like Heracross and Glalie and maybe Pidgeot if he got him back.

 

[LilligantLewis]

I though it was a missed oppurtunity to make some of Ash's old Pokemon relevant again Charizard and Sceptile have tons of moments too shine but his other Pokemon that have megas like Heracross and Glalie and maybe Pidgeot if he got him back.

Yeah I would have loved it if it were Heracross or Glalie. I didn't care who -- I just wanted Ash to get a Mega. Ridiculous not to let your main character be able to represent the major powerup gimmick of a gen.

 

[Crystal]

IMO, Ash-Greninja is not really a MacGuffin—at least, not a true MacGuffin. Was it interchangeable? Well, one could argue that, in the grand scheme of things, yes, it was interchangeable with Mega Evolution, in the sense that a Mega Evolved Greninja would have done just as well as Ash-Greninja outside of the Bond Phenomenon story arc. But that's the thing—it was not interchangeable within the Bond Phenomenon story arc. Likewise, it was not irrelevant to the plot, as an entire story and character arc involved mastering the form. So, it's not a true MacGuffin.

No, it is 100% interchangeable. Exchange Bond Phenomenon with Mega Evolution, then Greninja will have story arc of Mega Evolution, there won't be a Bond Phenomenon story arc. It may had tried to master its Mega Evolution in the same manner as Korrina's Lucario. Instead of going to Ninja Village just to acknowledge the existence of such transformation, they could have gone to Ninja Village to obtain a Mega Stone. In the case of the pain sharing trait, whether it is there or not doesn't affect the grand scheme at all. Finally, whether it may be Ash-Greninja or MegaGreninja, it will still do the same job within battles.
Details may be differ trivially, but such trivial narrative deviation doesn't exclude it from being a MacGuffin, as it was stated clearly in that TVTrope page you referenced.

There is a reason why such DNA-wise born specialness is hated, especially such kind of exorbitant specialness that is theoretically impossible, in the same comparison as a Superman is born out of ordinary normal common human being parents where their jobs are just cashier at your next door supermarket. Shall Superman became Superman through some special medicine or mutation operation or power increase through some artefact or other external circumstance-induced reason, at least it is still logical enough to suspend our disbelief. But if Superman was Superman already since his time of birth, unless his birth is something extraordinary or non-human-being from the very beginning, then it is really difficult to suspend the audience's disbelief. This is the problem of plausibility. Ash-Greninja lacks this.

There are many ways to establish a believable story. @FrozTKnight suggested one such alternative story plot, where at least it could provide more plausibility if one shall insisted in using the concept of Bond Phenomenon instead of Mega Evolution.

 

[Satomine Night]

No, it is 100% interchangeable. Exchange Bond Phenomenon with Mega Evolution, then Greninja will have story arc of Mega Evolution, there won't be a Bond Phenomenon story arc. It may had tried to master its Mega Evolution in the same manner as Korrina's Lucario. Instead of going to Ninja Village just to acknowledge the existence of such transformation, they could have gone to Ninja Village to obtain a Mega Stone. In the case of the pain sharing trait, whether it is there or not doesn't affect the grand scheme at all. Finally, whether it may be Ash-Greninja or MegaGreninja, it will still do the same job within battles.
Details may be differ trivially, but such trivial narrative deviation doesn't exclude it from being a MacGuffin, as it was stated clearly in that TVTrope page you referenced.

As I said in my earlier post, in the grand scheme of things, yes, the Bond Phenomenon could have been replaced with Mega Evolution and not much about the overarching story would have changed. Instead of mastering the Ash-Greninja form, there could have been a story arc about mastering Mega Evolution à la Korrina and Lucario. However, my understanding of a MacGuffin is that it's completely interchangeable. That is, it could be replaced and nothing about the story would change. Replacing the Bond Phenomenon with Mega Evolution still involves changing the story. The changes could be trivial, or the changes could be major.

Additionally, there is the second "requirement" for something to be a MacGuffin—the nature of the item is irrelevant, or not vital, to the plot. The very nature of the Bond Phenomenon was vital to the Ash-Greninja story arc. True, a similar story arc would have been needed for Meva Evolution, but it wouldn't have been the same. Mega Evolution does not involve pain-sharing or synchronization of the minds of the Pokémon and Trainer the way the Bond Phenomenon does. That is why I said Ash-Greninja is not a true MacGuffin. But then, I could be reading into the definition of a MacGuffin a little too deeply.

I'm not saying the Bond Phenomenon was well-written (although it could have been), and I can understand why someone would think it's not plausible. Personally, I think it's at least believable, because it was more or less established that Battle Bond is an Ability. It might have been better, though, if it weren't presented as such as rare Ability, and if the writers had done more with the ties to the Ninja Village and its legendary Greninja.

 

[Akkipeddi]

Now I honestly have no idea what the heck this whole MacGuffin bs is, but based on whatever I understand here, it seems to be about why Ash Greninja couldn't have just been Mega Greninja, as they are apparently interchangeable, and the story wouldn't have changed. However, that's completely untrue because of the Team Flare arc. Battles might not have changed, but the whole prophecy from Olympia was because of the special Ash Greninja form, that a regular Mega Greninja wouldn't have fulfilled.

Lysandre's whole obsession was on the Ash Greninja form, due to its special nature, despite Alain and MCX being stronger. Also, the whole point of breaking out of the Mega Evolution energy was because of Ash and Greninja being able to synchronize as one, which wouldn't have been possible if it was a regular old Mega Greninja. And lastly, Ash being able to see through Greninja to pin point Chespie inside the Megalith (and later in XYZ046) was only because of Battle Bond.

Now I agree to an extent that the whole Battle Bond could've been explained a little better, but I disagree that simply replacing Ash Greninja with a Mega Greninja wouldn't have affected the story. As seen with the Team Flare arc, the Bond Phenomenon and its effects were shown clearly, that a regular Mega Greninja wouldn't have been, and would have altered the whole crux of the story.

 

[Xuxuba]

All these suggestions seems way more boring, it takes the mystery away and adds too much exposition.
I really don't care where the ability came from and i don't have any trouble with the ability being something that he was just born with it. All i wanted to see is how Ash dealt with it as a trainers and they did that by slowly making them gain control over it.

 

[Satomine Night]

Lysandre's whole obsession was on the Ash Greninja form, due to its special nature, despite Alain and MCX being stronger. Also, the whole point of breaking out of the Mega Evolution energy was because of Ash and Greninja being able to synchronize as one, which wouldn't have been possible if it was a regular old Mega Greninja. And lastly, Ash being able to see through Greninja to pin point Chespie inside the Megalith (and later in XYZ046) was only because of Battle Bond.

Now I agree to an extent that the whole Battle Bond could've been explained a little better, but I disagree that simply replacing Ash Greninja with a Mega Greninja wouldn't have affected the story. As seen with the Team Flare arc, the Bond Phenomenon and its effects were shown clearly, that a regular Mega Greninja wouldn't have been, and would have altered the whole crux of the story.

This right here is another reason Ash-Greninja can't truly be called a MacGuffin. Replace the Bond Phenomenon with Mega Evolution, and Lysandre would have had no reason to be interested in Ash or Greninja in the first place, and thus no reason to kidnap them. Additionally, Ash and Greninja would not have been able to break out of the Mega Evolution energy-powered laser beams, which they were able to do due to their ability to synchronize with each other, because Mega Evolution does not involve synchronization. Changes to the story would not have been trivial if the Bond Phenomenon was replaced with Mega Evolution.

 

[LilligantLewis]

I just realized something: Maybe the better question to be discussed is: Would people be this upset about some of the unanswered questions if Ash-Greninja had just beaten Mega Charizard X? For me personally, no, I wouldn't care as much. I feel like one of the reasons I'm so upset about Ash-Greninja and want some more answers is specifically because I still don't get why the writers even made it a thing.

If it had beaten Mega Charizard X, I would probably not feel like it was irrelevant.

 

[FrozTKnight]

This right here is another reason Ash-Greninja can't truly be called a MacGuffin. Replace the Bond Phenomenon with Mega Evolution, and Lysandre would have had no reason to be interested in Ash or Greninja in the first place, and thus no reason to kidnap them. Additionally, Ash and Greninja would not have been able to break out of the Mega Evolution energy-powered laser beams, which they were able to do due to their ability to synchronize with each other, because Mega Evolution does not involve synchronization. Changes to the story would not have been trivial if the Bond Phenomenon was replaced with Mega Evolution.

You still could give Lysandre a reason for being interested in AG, its not that hard...

So as @Crystal suggested give Greninja a regular mega but don't make it look like a regular Mega-Greninja but give it the Ash-Greninja form. This would keep Lysandre interested in the Greninja because it doesn't look like a regular mega Greninja and resembles Ash a lot. It could be explained with a similar explanation of AG that Ash has an extremely close bond with his Pokemon that the mega stones push the transformation from a regular power up to the trainer and Pokemon becoming one. It would also remove the question of why Ash didn't have Ash-Pikachu, Ash-Charizard etc. since Pikachu has no mega and well Ash never had a chance to get a Mega stone for his Charizard.

Heck they could have tied it to the Ninja Village at the same time. Have the Greninja mega stone in the village, and lets say the prophecy says that the stone will start glowing in a time of crisis and call forth a Greninja and its trainer to save Kalos.

 

[LilligantLewis]

lol, somehow your @'ing of @Crystal turned out to @Satomine Night by mistake instead.

 

[Yukidoh]

To be honest, the whole 'Lysandre was interested in Ash' never even needed to happen. It just felt like an extra step the writers took to emphasize how special and different Ash is from everyone else. There were plenty of ways to restructure the story.

 

[Akkipeddi]

You still could give Lysandre a reason for being interested in AG, its not that hard...

So as @Crystal suggested give Greninja a regular mega but don't make it look like a regular Mega-Greninja but give it the Ash-Greninja form. This would keep Lysandre interested in the Greninja because it doesn't look like a regular mega Greninja and resembles Ash a lot. It could be explained with a similar explanation of AG that Ash has an extremely close bond with his Pokemon that the mega stones push the transformation from a regular power up to the trainer and Pokemon becoming one. It would also remove the question of why Ash didn't have Ash-Pikachu, Ash-Charizard etc. since Pikachu has no mega and well Ash never had a chance to Mega stone for his Charizard.

That really doesn't make sense. On one hand, you'd rather it be Mega Greninja since it's more conventional, but still want to allow it to be different and special from the rest of the Mega Greninjas? In fact that sounds even more ridiculous since that means Ash is even more special, since apparently he is the only one with a bond so strong that he can make an already existing Mega Greninja seem different while every other trainer who have a Mega Greninja don't have a bond strong enough to do that?

And no, even with Bond Phenomenon, it was always clear why no other Pokémon of Ash's could have that special form, such as Ash-Pikachu. It was always to do with Froakie being special, and having that latent ability, (and not because of simply having a strong bond) which Ash was able to unlock and unleash.

 

[FrozTKnight]

That really doesn't make sense. On one hand, you'd rather it be Mega Greninja since it's more conventional, but still want to allow it to be different and special from the rest of the Mega Greninjas? In fact that sounds even more ridiculous since that means Ash is even more special, since apparently he is the only one with a bond so strong that he can make an already existing Mega Greninja seem different while every other trainer who have a Mega Greninja don't have a bond strong enough to do that?

My argument is whether its should be special or not but explaining it in way it won't contradict previous seasons of Pokemon. Making Greninja a regular mega form is easier to explain that they are able to sync with each other for some reason. And it removes the question why we didn't have Ash-"X" Pokemon before. And its doesn't necessary to have it be the due to his "special bond" it was a hypothetical explanation and you are really bothered by it you could make the stone that is used (which I would suggest be in the Ninja Village) be the trigger for the alternate form. And he won't be able to keep the mega stone since he would have to return it to the Village incase of another crysis in Kalos

And no, even with Bond Phenomenon, it was always clear why no other Pokémon of Ash's could have that special form, such as Ash-Pikachu. It was always to do with Froakie being special, and having that latent ability, (and not because of simply having a strong bond) which Ash was able to unlock and unleash.

I would buy the latent ability explanation if they showed signs since the beginning of the show instead coming up with a new transformation with a rushed explanation. And don't use the "Battle Bond" ability explanation since "Battle Bond" is game exclusive and works in a completely different way to the anime "Bond Phenomenon"

 

[LilligantLewis]

My argument is whether its should be special or not but explaining it in way it won't contradict previous seasons of Pokemon. Making Greninja a regular mega form is easier to explain that they are able to sync with each other for some reason. And it removes the question why we didn't have Ash-"X" Pokemon before. And its doesn't necessary to have it be the due to his "special bond" it was a hypothetical explanation and you are really bothered by it you could make the stone that is used (which I would suggest be in the Ninja Village) be the trigger for the alternate form. And he won't be able to keep the mega stone since he would have to return it to the Village incase of another crysis in Kalos

That wouldn't make sense because it wouldn't explain why Ash is the only one who can unlock the special Mega Greninja. At least in this case, Battle Bond explains it.

I would buy the latent ability explanation if they showed signs since the beginning of the show instead coming up with a new transformation with a rushed explanation. And don't use the "Battle Bond" ability explanation since "Battle Bond" is game exclusive and works in a completely different way to the anime "Bond Phenomenon"

I fully disagree with you. Ash's Greninja's Ability is Battle Bond. Also, there were signs since the beginning of the show since Professor Sycamore said Froakie would spend a lot of time by itself and was very different from the other Froakie.

 

[Akkipeddi]

My argument is whether its should be special or not but explaining it in way it won't contradict previous seasons of Pokemon. Making Greninja a regular mega form is easier to explain that they are able to sync with each other for some reason. And it removes the question why we didn't have Ash-"X" Pokemon before. And its doesn't necessary to have it be the due to his "special bond" it was a hypothetical explanation and you are really bothered by it you could make the stone that is used (which I would suggest be in the Ninja Village) be the trigger for the alternate form. And he won't be able to keep the mega stone since he would have to return it to the Village incase of another crisis in Kalos.

Again, I don't see how Bond Phenomenon contradicts previous seasons of Pokémon at all. If it's again the reasoning that "oh Ash has a better bond with Pikachu, why is there no Ash-Pikachu", then it has been countlessly said that it was due to the fact that Greninja was special, and had that hidden ability and potential from the start, and wasn't randomly triggered just because of their bond. Infact, what's ironic is if Ash actually had a Greninja that was able to have an alternate form, despite having a Mega, that would be a contradiction since it totally ruins and defeats what we know about Mega Evolution.

I would buy the latent ability explanation if they showed signs since the beginning of the show instead coming up with a new transformation with a rushed explanation. And don't use the "Battle Bond" ability explanation since "Battle Bond" is game exclusive and works in a completely different way to the anime "Bond Phenomenon"

There were signs since early XY that Froakie was unique. Professor Sycamore mentioning the fact that Froakie kept leaving all its trainers, and that flashback which showed Froakie being the odd one out of its group, as well as Olympia's prophecy, which happened in XY094, which was a good 47 episodes before the series ended, so imo, it wasn't rushed.

 

[FrozTKnight]

That wouldn't make sense because it wouldn't explain why Ash is the only one who can unlock the special Mega Greninja. At least in this case, Battle Bond explains it.

Its a pretty easy to come up with a explaination

Here is a pretty easy history to grasp I made up now. Long ago several centuries after AZ (also what happened to AZ in the anime? They could have used his Floette to explain AG) launched his weapon, Kalos was thrown into another war. This is a revolution against the Kalos monarchy which had been hoarding the regions riches leaving the people of Kalos in povety. Though the revoltes has more number, the Monarchy has a secret weapon Mega Pokemon which could wipe out several Pokemon and they had a lot of them. The were at a disadvantage was getting beaten back and this war was throwing the natural balance out of order and Zygarde wanted to intervene but didn't want to get involved in a petty war of humans, so he searched for a worthy trainer and his Pokemon and gave them the special mega stone that would grant them the potential to mega evolve but the stone has special requirements 1) Trainer and Pokemon must share a strong bond, 2)They must be worthy of this power (kind of like Thor and Mjolnir) 3) They stone only be activated by Zygarde. This hero and his Pokemon eventually founded the Ninja Village and they guard and safe keep the stone even though the stone can't be used by just anyone one it still could be used by the wrong people. Generations come and go and the stone lay dormant till now, in the current era we have Ash traveling as usual and like in the show he goes to the Ninja village. We have the bad ninja guy wanting to steal the stone but elders don't want to give it to him blah blah (Also Greninja will need to evolve before this). Ash and co ask what it this stone and the elders says its nothing. They all go to bed, Z1 sneaks into the village, lead Greninja to the stone and activates it, this give him and Ash a "Warg" like dream sequence. Then they have their good vs evil fight with the bad ninjas, Ash and Greninja kickass after it megas into its special form, elders recognize it as the prophecy of the a new heros arising and using the stone to avert the coming crisis in Kalos, but Greninja struggles to control the form goes crazy and it would follow the same story line as AG but with it being trigger by a stone this time. And we also have a reason for why Lysandre is interested in the stone (only adding this to keep it inline with the current story but doesn't mean it has to be part of the story), Ash and greninja... the stone is unique compared to other mega stones and it doesn't work like the other stones. When the crisis is done Ash would return the stone so the next hero would rise if Kalos is in danger.

I fully disagree with you. Ash's Greninja's Ability is Battle Bond. Also, there were signs since the beginning of the show since Professor Sycamore said Froakie would spend a lot of time by itself and was very different from the other Froakie.

Yeah Battle Bond isn't even mention in the anime so I don't buy it. And a person/Pokemon wanting to spend time alone doesn't make you a saviour or prophesied hero dude

There were signs since early XY that Froakie was unique. Professor Sycamore mentioning the fact that Froakie kept leaving all its trainers, and that flashback which showed Froakie being the odd one out of its group, as well as Olympia's prophecy, which happened in XY094, which was a good 47 episodes before the series ended, so imo, it wasn't rushed.

I'll say it again that is a patheic excuse of a plot point to make the Pokemon unique. Heck Froakie isn't even that unique compared to Pikachu, that Pikachu has got to be top 1% of Pikachus x1000

 

[LilligantLewis]

Its a pretty easy to come up with a explaination

Here is a pretty easy history to grasp I made up now. Long ago several centuries after AZ (also what happened to AZ in the anime? They could have used his Floette to explain AG) launched his weapon, Kalos was thrown into another war. This is a revolution against the Kalos monarchy which had been hoarding the regions riches leaving the people of Kalos in povety. Though the revoltes has more number, the Monarchy has a secret weapon Mega Pokemon which could wipe out several Pokemon and they had a lot of them. The were at a disadvantage was getting beaten back and this war was throwing the natural balance out of order and Zygarde wanted to intervene but didn't want to get involved in a petty war of humans, so he searched for a worthy trainer and his Pokemon and gave them the special mega stone that would grant them the potential to mega evolve but the stone has special requirements 1) Trainer and Pokemon must share a strong bond, 2)They must be worthy of this power (kind of like Thor and Mjolnir) 3) They stone only be activated by Zygarde. This hero and his Pokemon eventually founded the Ninja Village and they guard and safe keep the stone even though the stone can't be used by just anyone one it still could be used by the wrong people. Generations come and go and the stone lay dormant till now, in the current era we have Ash traveling as usual and like in the show he goes to the Ninja village. We have the bad ninja guy wanting to steal the stone but elders don't want to give it to him blah blah (Also Greninja will need to evolve before this). Ash and co ask what it this stone and the elders says its nothing. They all go to bed, Z1 sneaks into the village, lead Greninja to the stone and activates it, this give him and Ash a "Warg" like dream sequence. Then they have their good vs evil fight with the bad ninjas, Ash and Greninja kickass after it megas into its special form, elders recognize it as the prophecy of the a new heros arising and using the stone to avert the coming crisis in Kalos, but Greninja struggles to control the form goes crazy and it would follow the same story line as AG but with it being trigger by a stone this time. And we also have a reason for why Lysandre is interested in the stone (only adding this to keep it inline with the current story but doesn't mean it has to be part of the story), Ash and greninja... the stone is unique compared to other mega stones and it doesn't work like the other stones. When the crisis is done Ash would return the stone so the next hero would rise if Kalos is in danger.




Yeah Battle Bond isn't even mention in the anime so I don't buy it. And a person/Pokemon wanting to spend time alone doesn't make you a saviour or prophesied hero dude



I'll say it again that is a patheic excuse of a plot point to make the Pokemon unique. Heck Froakie isn't even that unique compared to Pikachu, that Pikachu has got to be top 1% of Pikachus x1000

If Ash is Thor who is hela

 

[Yukidoh]

There were signs since early XY that Froakie was unique. Professor Sycamore mentioning the fact that Froakie kept leaving all its trainers, and that flashback which showed Froakie being the odd one out of its group, as well as Olympia's prophecy, which happened in XY094, which was a good 47 episodes before the series ended, so imo, it wasn't rushed.

I highly doubt Froakie leaving its trainers was any kind of hint, and I sincerely doubt Ash-Greninja was even planned at that point in the story. If anything, the whole Froakie leaving trainers and then finally finding the right trainer in Ash was yet another thing XY did to show us that Ash is this super special guy who is different from other trainers.

 

[LilligantLewis]

I highly doubt Froakie leaving its trainers was any kind of hint, and I sincerely doubt Ash-Greninja was even planned at that point in the story. If anything, the whole Froakie leaving trainers and then finally finding the right trainer in Ash was yet another thing XY did to show us that Ash is this super special guy who is different from other trainers.

I disagree. These scenes from Froakie's infancy were shown again in the epic Frogadier flashback of XY92.