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Is Ash really that bad??

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An00bis

Wicked Witch
I am not a fan of Ash, but I also cannot deny that he is clearly an above average Trainer.

Mind that the average Trainer;

- Has not caught even 6 Pokemon (Ash has over 50)
- Has never participated in League (Well, you know)
- Has not collected 8 badges (Ash has over 40)
- Does not travel far from their Hometown

I'm talking statistical averages. I can pretty much guarantee that the average Pokemon Trainer's profile that you pull up in the character listing would meet three of these four criteria. Since most of the story takes place from Ash's perspective as a Professional Pokemon Trainer we do not get to see the " average Trainer " often. Mostly as Characters of the Day in Filler Episodes.

Even the games supports that ideal. The Introductory segment at the beginning of each game usually mentions that people who own Pokemon keep them as pets and companions mostly with only a small percentage aiming for the Pokemon League. It takes a special kind of person to not only decide they want to pursue the Pokemon League but tough it out until the end.

Are there characters who might break that mold? Most certainly. There are very talented Trainers who for one reason or another choose not to participate in the Gym Leader Challenge. That is not common, though.
 

Lord Solrac

Active Member
I'll admit I haven't watched regularly since the Jhoto Journeys but last time I'll observed.....yea he's a friggin idiot.

Let's his strongest Pokemon (Charizard) go, & refused to evolve most others.

Would be delighted to know that's changed, but Gary will always be cooler.
 

Crystal

The Pokemon Observer
He's at Oak's place now with most of Ash's other old Pokemon, so it's not really an issue anymore tbh.

I personally think keeping ~50 Pokemon in other people's place, yet don't use them at all and don't let them battle, have no personal contact with their owner for a super long time, where their owner don't even communicate with them via phone or voice mail or whatsoever other communication methods, just let them eat and sleep in one place and not letting them doing any sort of extensive physical exercise, just recall them out when it is necessary (and yet it is like once in a blue moon), is more of a problem and rather a serious issue.

Just one question. Is Ash Ketchum a Pokemon Trainer, or a Pokemon Collector?
 
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Lord Trollbias

Y'all Salty Bishes
I personally think keeping ~50 Pokemon in other people's place, yet don't use them at all and don't let them battle and do any sort of extensive physical exercise, don't even communicate with them via phone or voice mail or whatsoever other communication methods, just recall them out when it is necessary (and yet it is like once in a blue moon), is more of a problem and rather a serious issue.

Just one question. Is Ash Ketchum a Pokemon Trainer, or a Pokemon Collector?
Seeing as how its been established in before that Ash communicates with Oak whenever he gets to a Pokemon Center, I have no doubts he probably catches up with his Pokemon as well during said time. Only problem is it would be tedious to show that happening every-time so it most likely happens off-screen. Doesn't let them battle? Please. Recalls them virtually every League and before the League battles, post-League sagas, etc... Only reason he doesn't use them for the regional Gyms is so he can build a strong regional team. No physical exercise? What you thing the Pokemon are just sitting there doing nothing? Or that they just happen to come back with stronger, more updated movesets while doing nothing at Oaks? No. They're most likely training with each other and the other Oak'd Pokemon from OTHER TRAINERS (unless you think those other trainers are terrible people too), etc... Hell Oak even confirms that Staraptor, Swellow and Noctowl compete against each other in aerial races so its not hard to infer that the other Pokemon challenge each other as well.
What you're describing is something that will literally face any trainer in the anime with 6+ Pokemon so unless you think that makes them horrible people not worthy of being trainers but rather collectors, your point is moot.
I'll admit I haven't watched regularly since the Jhoto Journeys but last time I'll observed.....yea he's a friggin idiot.


Let's his strongest Pokemon (Charizard) go, & refused to evolve most others.


Would be delighted to know that's changed, but Gary will always be cooler.
Well that explains a lot then. Because a.) Charizard is not released b.) Of his 34 Pokemon Capable of Evolution that he has with him, only 9 (Bulbasaur, Totodile, Corphish, Gible, Buizel, Snivy, Oshawott, and Scraggy) are unevolved.
Not exactly sure how hw REFUSES to evolve his Pokemon since he's not even responsible for when his Pokemon evolve 99% of the time and the 2 Pokemon of his that he has control over whether they evolve or not Pikachu via Thunderstone and Gligar via Razor Fang, he evolved Gligar into Gliscor
 
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Lorde

Let's go to the beach, each.
I personally think keeping ~50 Pokemon in other people's place, yet don't use them at all and don't let them battle, don't even communicate with them via phone or voice mail or whatsoever other communication methods, just let them eat and sleep and not doing any sort of extensive physical exercise, just recall them out when it is necessary (and yet it is like once in a blue moon), is more of a problem and rather a serious issue.

That's not fair to him; it's impossible to train/develop 40-50 Pokemon equally in the anime. What should he do then, release them? :confused:
 

Lord Solrac

Active Member
Seeing as how its been established in before that Ash communicates with Oak whenever he gets to a Pokemon Center, I have no doubts he probably catches up with his Pokemon as well during said time. Only problem is it would be tedious to show that happening every-time so it most likely happens off-screen. Doesn't let them battle? Please. Recalls them virtually every League and before the League battles, post-League sagas, etc... Only reason he doesn't use them for the regional Gyms is so he can build a strong regional team. No physical exercise? What you thing the Pokemon are just sitting there doing nothing? Or that they just happen to come back with stronger, more updated movesets while doing nothing at Oaks? No. They're most likely training with each other and the other Oak'd Pokemon from OTHER TRAINERS (unless you think those other trainers are terrible people too), etc... Hell Oak even confirms that Staraptor, Swellow and Noctowl compete against each other in aerial races so its not hard to infer that the other Pokemon challenge each other as well.
What you're describing is something that will literally face any trainer in the anime with 6+ Pokemon so unless you think that makes them horrible people not worthy of being trainers but rather collectors, your point is moot.

Well that explains a lot then. Because a.) Charizard is not released b.) Of his 34 Pokemon Capable of Evolution that he has with him, only 9 (Bulbasaur, Totodile, Corphish, Gible, Buizel, Snivy, Oshawott, and Scraggy) are unevolved.
Not exactly sure how hw REFUSES to evolve his Pokemon since he's not even responsible for when his Pokemon evolve 99% of the time and the 2 Pokemon of his that he has control over whether they evolve or not Pikachu via Thunderstone and Gligar via Razor Fang, he evolved Gligar into Gliscor

A. Not keeping a strong dual type like Charizard on his team is just stupid. Especially since he can fly.

B. Nine is nine too many.

C. Apologies. Shoulda said he tends to ditch or not use those who do evolve from what I remember. My refusal quip comes from him still refusing to evolve Pikachu. Yes we all know how iconic his Pikachu is. Fact remains tho that any other trainer who isn't daft would evolve it.
 

pokemon fan 132

Well-Known Member
Objectively speaking, Ash isn't bad trainer or "failure at life". As some like to call it.

He may make mistakes sometime. Forgett in heat of excitement and desire to win obvious things such as physical moves not affecting ghost types or electric attacks not hvaing effect on ground pokemon. He can be rash and unwary at times too being impatient in challenging other trainers or going into danger by himself ending in trouble because of that(one of examples from current series was in episode about Heliolisk robot with Clemont saving him).

However Ash also proven time after time to posess great deal of creativity and out of framed standards line of thinking, Coming up with most unusual strategies completely confusing gym leaders and trainers of high calliber winning because of it. With those who have years of experience under belt being impressed and widening their horizons because of this.

Ash was merituous for several times saving world or certain part of it from catastrophe by stopping rage of legendary pokemon(including pokemon God itself Arceus).

Stopped villain organizations. Consistently qualified for pokemon leagues going on higher brink with each new region. With exception of anomaly called Best Wishes.

Most of all Ash won numerous competitions, conquered Orange league championship, Frontier brains being offered even place to be part of prestigue Battle Frontier. Organization accepting to test out only most promising and adept trainers out there.

Ending recognized by several high class trainers which represent and mean something in pokemon world such as Agatha, Drake or Bertha from E4, champions like Cynthia, several gym leaders and strong trainers like Tyson, Tobias, Paul, Gary, Harrison etc, etc).

With Ash persistence, determination in accomplishing what he has on his mind, huge passion and strong emotional bonds he creates and strengthen over time making him material for champion. And one day pokemon master achieving his long term dream eventually.

Im of opinion how issue lies in pokemon anime having sorry to be blunt terrible continuity and inconsistency in staying faithful to character development.

Demonstrated through Ash stagnation and regression depending from saga to saga.
Zero connections to past generations almost never bringing up Ash past achievements, wins and various activities and challenges which supposed to leave effect on character. Changing because of that.

All of past experiences and older friends(see Misty, May, Max etc) being left forgotten in past never brought up again. Their friendship with Ash, impact they left on him in maturing and progressing as trainer accompanied with unresolved goals, unexplored issues and abandoned stories going way of GS ball. Becoming plot holes in Ash long journey and chasing after career in hopes of fans just forgetting and stopping to care.

Pokemon anime repetitive nature not having any stable cast through which past experiences of Ash and started development could be transfered to next generations. No attention payed to amount of growth and hard work happening in previous series underrmining Ash credibility as trainer. And very scattered, basic development with Ash still not making more substantial, further steps in his journey.

Giving out false impression of Ash being "weak trainer".

When in reality its exact opposite with writers lack of motivation in changing status quo, lack of attention toward past and marketing restriction to extent hindering his development and story progression. Shame, in older series it felt like this show still had direction to follow and on going plot through which relationships, development of characters and journey was built upon.

His character was flawed, but that was what made him so interesting.

Now he is just plain, boring and lacking personality and emotion though.

I wouldn't say Ash doesnt have any flaws or personality nowadays though.

Ash showed plenty of personality in newer generations too. He can be brash, impulsive and hotheaded. He has big appetite, can be laidnack not paying attebtion to details. Full of persistence and competitive spirit in overcoming any obstacle brimming with energy and optimism when hes up against strong opponent. Entangled with unselfish, loyal and deep care for his pokemon.

Sure he seems more decisive, responsible and perhaps wiser in this day and age. But thats in my opinion more so maturity and character development he went through. Which is supposed to add on, rather than taking away from character in reality.

Not to mention way Ash will act also depends on environment and type of people he is currently surrounded with,

Its to expect that he wouldn't express same emotions, reactions and outburts to current Kalos cast which is mostly cheerful, friendly, kind and supportive unconditionally. Like he used to with some past companions/friends(Misty, Gary, May to lesser extent come to mind) who could make him agitated, drive out some of his sarcastic, fiery side from character.

Or deliver wider stream of expressions ,making current cast dynamic feel still too one dimensional and static imo(but ill leave this thoughts for another day and time).

Are there characters who might break that mold? Most certainly. There are very talented Trainers who for one reason or another choose not to participate in the Gym Leader Challenge. That is not common, though.

I would also like to add how several trainers of high calliber may choose not to enter league simply because not everyone is interested in reaching fame or some high status. Being driven by such passion, competitive flare and determination to win tournaments, catcgh as many pokemon as possible and defeat strongest ones.

Passing of as unnoticed but highly competent trainers.

Than there are also talenbted indivuduals which pursue different careers not battlin gym leaders. For example Iris wants to become dragon master and while not all tasks were revealed she needs to overcome to gain that title. Winning regional league isn't one of them.

With Misty who wants to become water master insted of league, there were showded to exist prestigue elemental tournaments you need to win to come closer and achieve dream(like Whirl Cup which is often overlooked). Along with wishing to reach E4 strength like Lorelei she idolize both in anime and games(and by becoming E4, while there certainly must exist special tests to pass collecting badges isnt required).

Coordinators like May, Dawn etc of course striver towaerd winning Grand Festivals reachjing expertise through different type of events etc).

Point being how chasing after badges and qualifying for league isn't only clear indication of whether someone is skilled, adept and perceptive as battler. But its certainly most known measure in pokemon world.
 
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Lord Trollbias

Y'all Salty Bishes
A. Not keeping a strong dual type like Charizard on his team is just stupid. Especially since he can fly.

B. Nine is nine too many.

C. Apologies. Shoulda said he tends to ditch or not use those who do evolve from what I remember. My refusal quip comes from him still refusing to evolve Pikachu. Yes we all know how iconic his Pikachu is. Fact remains tho that any other trainer who isn't daft would evolve it.
a.) How is it stupid? His Johto team's poor development should be proof enough of how having Pokémon from other regions carry a regional team hampers growth? Charizard can Fly? So can all his Flying types. It actually shows better prowess as a trainer to be able to raise multiple just as string Pokémon but I forgot it ALWAYS has to be about Charizard :rolleyes:
b.) So then please tell me how he's supposed to force them to evolve when evolution in the anime is different from the games and Pokémon don't need a set xP and it's something that comes naturally and at varying rates (even for Pokémon of the same species? How is Ash supposed to change that?
c.) Ahh yes forcing Pikachu to evolve against his will. Congratulations trainer you have a Raichi. Gj trainer now he really hates your guts. Congratulations on breaking the try2st you had with your oldest and probably strongest Pokémon btw. Good job. Really daft move there mate.
 
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Blood Red

【推しの子】
Nope. I think most of the hatred directed towards Ash is because of his unorthodox battling style (which people almost always consider hax) and the comparisons with Red and Pokémon R/B/Y make everything even worse.
 

Captain America X

Well-Known Member
I don't know,the way I see it if the Pokemon Leagues were a real life thing than it would be something like the VGCs imo.So getting top 16,8,8,4,and 8 is pretty good.

With Misty who wants to become water master insted of league, there were showded to exist prestigue elemental tournaments you need to win to come closer and achieve dream(like Whirl Cup which is often overlooked). Along with wishing to reach E4 strength like Lorelei she idolize both in anime and games(and by becoming E4, while there certainly must exist special tests to pass collecting badges isnt required).
I'm pretty sure one needs to beat the pokemon league to become a member of the E4 since the next thing after winning the league is challenging a members of the E4 and the champion.
 
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ShinyCharyZard

Too old for your rubbish..
I'll admit I haven't watched regularly since the Jhoto Journeys but last time I'll observed.....yea he's a friggin idiot.

Let's his strongest Pokemon (Charizard) go, & refused to evolve most others.

Would be delighted to know that's changed, but Gary will always be cooler.

Charizard returned for the eighth Johto gym, again for the Johto League (defeating Gary's Blastoise), then twice again in the Battle Frontier (where it defeated an Articuno) and then for a whole chapter of the BW saga, before returning to Oaks to make it even easier to call upon..

Since Johto, the majority of his Pokémon have evolved at least once. Bayleef, Quilava, Donphan, Sceptile, Swellow, Glalie, Staraptor, Infernape, Torterra, Gliscor, Unfezant, Pignite, Boldore, Krookodile, Leavanny, Fletchinder, Frogadier and a current spoiler-ific team member are all examples of this.

Furthermore, in relation to your other posts, Pikachu's evolution is not a choice that Ash can make. He has always made it perfectly clear that he is open to Pikachu becoming a Raichu, but it is Pikachu itself that doesn't want to change..

Please, if you're going to comment on what you THINK is happening within an anime that you don't watch, then at least do your homework first..
 

k6666

Pikachu Fan
imo he isn't bad , he is good trainer he have great bond with all his pokes , DP prove that he is great as trainer but sadly in BW the writer make him look like noob again ( you guys call cameron a camoron which i agree for obvious reason but didnt call ash idiot to let his pignite battle cameron samurott which he could save for lucario , and also nimbasa gym LOL need i say that more) even i like his character on bw but sadly his skill just got reset
 

pokemon fan 132

Well-Known Member
I'm pretty sure one needs to beat the pokemon league to become a member of the E4 since the next thing after winning the league is challenging a members of the E4 and the champion.

Thats requirement , official procedure you neeed to complete in order to qualify for champion league and earn opportunity to become champion yourself though or overcome one of tasks to become master(according to Lucian from E4).

In anime it was showed how there exists at least 2 alternate ways to qualify for pokemon league. By either attending special school as presented in "School of Hard Knocks!". Or by taking ultimate test happening in 56th episode of Kanto saga. With winner qualifying directly as eligible material to enter Indigo Plateau conference without needing badges,

So i presume there exists more than one way to become E4 with league not being necessary for those who dont wish to become champion as Ash and many other trainers with similar ambitions dreams demand.
Either through E4 being impressed by someone talent and dedication taking him as apprentice, later through heritage taking its place, Once he/she from E4 retires recommending its student to league commitee.
If gym leaders can gain position through heritage, logic indicates same could apply to E4 as well.
Or there existing evaluators, agents certified by pokemon league with challenger who solely aim for E4 position and nothing else having to battle them and pass special tasks to process if he could come in consideration for this position if one of existing E4 leaves his post.

Not to mention in games Koga got promoted as gym leader to E4 position, Granted he left gym and three years passed after leaving gym and becoming E4 to presumably train and pass tests.
Or Caitlin leaving position of Castle Valet Darach head, going on journey to hone and improve skills becoming E4. With no inducations of needing to win league there existing for this 2.

So to me logic indicates how there could exist more than one way for someone to reach E4 rank too.
 
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Kutie Pie

"It is my destiny."
Let's his strongest Pokemon (Charizard) go, & refused to evolve most others.

I know you've not watched episodes past the Johto Journeys or so, but have you clearly forgotten why it was Ash left his Charizard behind in the Charicific Valley? It was for Charizard's benefit to get stronger, because he knew he wasn't a competent enough trainer to raise him. Just because he gained his Charizard's trust back in (late) Orange Islands doesn't mean he was able to bring out his full potential. It wasn't like he forgot Charizard the moment he left him behind, no. He would come back from time to time, and even temporarily was on Ash's team in Best Wishes before his current residence at Oak's lab, but he had to train alongside other Charizard to get stronger. And now that Ash is a better trainer than he was back in Johto, he can raise his Charizard again, he just chooses to raise regional Pokémon instead while calling back his old Pokémon every now and then (even though I feel that's just lazy fan-pandering writing, and that's what hurt his Johto team--I think he stopped doing this eventually...?).

As for why he doesn't evolve some of his Pokémon, it was established quite a few times by multiple people that some Pokémon just don't feel the need to evolve, and it shouldn't be forced. Ash takes good care of his Pokémon that it doesn't matter if they evolve or not, they can hold up a battle against a final evolution. Though I have to also wonder if it's because deep down, while he knows his Pokémon will still be his Pokémon at heart, he worries that the personality will change with the evolution, like it happened with Charmander. So he doesn't actively encourage it like he does in training, but he's not against evolution. And when it comes to Pikachu, he's had Pikachu decide a couple of times, and he has continuously refused to evolve. We can make the argument on a meta level that it's because the writers don't want to lose their mascot, but on a character level, it says a lot about Pikachu's personality and his strong bond with his trainer.
 
I don't think so ash is as bad as people make him out to be, ash was a great character in OS and had that flare till the end of AG but writers choose to destroy his character every way after that, they screwed him over and over again and that's what made people lose interest in their pokemon hero. I still love ash, he's my favorite anime character and he will be no mater how much writers screw him but it really is sad to see his character used just as a marketing tool and this applies to all other characters as well.
 

Lorde

Let's go to the beach, each.
imo he isn't bad , he is good trainer he have great bond with all his pokes , DP prove that he is great as trainer but sadly in BW the writer make him look like noob again ( you guys call cameron a camoron which i agree for obvious reason but didnt call ash idiot to let his pignite battle cameron samurott which he could save for lucario , and also nimbasa gym LOL need i say that more) even i like his character on bw but sadly his skill just got reset

I agree tbh. I do admire his bonds with his Pokemon though; that's always been his strong point, hence why I'm rarely critical of that part of his character.
 

KJC

Well-Known Member
He isn't a "bad" battler per se but he's made some truly inexplicable decisions. For example, why doesn't he just assemble all of his most powerful Pokemon whenever he does a league? In Unova he didn't even call on one single Pokemon from Oak. And your telling me he wants to be a Pokemon master?
 

Lorde

Let's go to the beach, each.
In Unova he didn't even call on one single Pokemon from Oak. And your telling me he wants to be a Pokemon master?

I assumed that it was a pride thing like in the Hoenn League; that he wanted to compete at the Unova League using only his regional team. Frankly, he would've lost regardless, so idk why it would matter which Pokemon he used.
 

KJC

Well-Known Member
If I had broken my *** travelling halfway around the world gathering badges for the FIFTH time I think I would like to try my best to win the league.
 
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