Is Ash really that bad??

[nameman]

I personally think Ash is a bad trainer and here's why.

He never looks at a map with all the gyms and plan out which route he wants to take. He never bothers to look at the pokedex, which is basically a hand-held database of pokemon in the anime, and sees which ones interest him.

He barely uses common sense. Jumping into a volcano to rescue talonflame is not brave, it's stupid when you can recall it real easily.

He (debatably) knows the type chart poorly.

As the protagonist, we as the viewers expect him to meet his goal. This isn't some Shakespearian tragedy where their flaws catch up to them and they die. To say he hasn't reached his goal yet is an understatement.

The writing staff and executives are also to blame. When we watch any media we put time and (sometimes) money into what we're watching. We expect better because it's our time (and money) to spend. I'm going to call what Ash's trainer life what it truly is, lazy.

Those kinds of acts have been called a negative part of Ash's character in-universe since the start. We all know that Ash isn't the kind of person who plans out how the journey goes. We all know, and was recently called out by Ramos, that Ash acts like he has a death wish a lot. It's called having faults. Those are Ash's faults that keep him from being perfect.

As for everything else, blame the writers. We'll have to wait for this Gen to end before we can actually critique Ash's status at the end of the Gen.

 

[Captain America X]

Regarding on this question of bonds, I really have a doubt of what kind of "performance" you need in order to demonstrate the closeness between the trainer and pokemon?

Jump right in front of one's own pokemon and defend them from attacks of another pokemon? Poke into the exact same danger that one's pokemon is facing hence the possibility of end up at the worst of destiny bonded together? Regardless of the critical situation the trainer is facing now, saving pokemon is the first priority and must be done even by endangering oneself? Always be together when danger is approaching?

Yeah, all these kind of performance may hit the TV audience, but it really depends on the situation. So it could happens that such trick of "saving pokemon from danger" did not work. Especially when the situation is not really that critical as it implied, or that the rescuer is not that desperate enough, or that the rescuer cannot save the rescuee in his own power, it will then oppositely be branded as over-performance, could produce opposite effects. Also, this trick has a problem is that it is only one-sided, it may roughly demonstrate the feeling from the rescuer, but not from the rescuee. It is only after the rescuing actions, then the rescuee may or may not response emotionally to the rescuer. Therefore my advice to the Pokemon Anime staff: use this trick carefully, and never ever overuse it!

If it is me, I would prefer some more the 'subtle' way of demonstrating the bond. As the show cannot always produce life-endangering threats in order to play the above trick, the non-threatening methods of bond demonstrations are then needed.
What are those? Well, it can be as mundane as one could imagine. Always feed the pokemons with their favourite food; always trying to play with them and make them happy; always trying to please them when they are unhappy; closely care for them when they are sick and weak; train them in an appropriate manner where not overworking them yet not being too lenient on them; always encourage them but not doing anything to discourage them; not turning on them as a sandbag when the trainer is angry and unhappy; you can be strict at time but not necessarily being evil on them; you wish them good but not wishing them becoming bad, not even hoping them becoming lazy or hold an attitude because they always whining for something minor; etc et cetera.

For all of these subtle bond demonstrations, you can actually do it anytime and anywhere regardless of the situation, and IMO it works much better than "saving pokemon from danger". However unfortunately, this kind of bond demonstration is the least I saw from Ash Ketchum. That's why I really wonder does he really love his pokemons?

Are you being serious here?You actually doubt whether Ash actually loves his pokemon or not?The guy who puts his pokemon happiness in front of his own performance in battles.

Also Ash has done the bolded multiple times.

 

[thor94]

Are you being serious here?You actually doubt whether Ash actually loves his pokemon or not?The guy who puts his pokemon happiness in front of his own performance in battles.

Also Ash has done the bolded multiple times.

ash giving up his former region pokemon for the usual "having the feeling of first journey again" can't be really considered as proof of love.
Even if it is for promotion, giving up older pokemon is something a stupid bad trainer would do.
Ash is a kind trainer, no doubt with that. but when we come to trainer and survival skills ash is clearly on the deadlast and morons group (a guy with no real skill and god dumb luck, pretty like naruto in the academy). Also ash is obviously a really bad protagonist especially for a shonen/kodomo anime.

 

[U.N. Owen]

ash giving up his former region pokemon for the usual "having the feeling of first journey again" can't be really considered as proof of love.
Even if it is for promotion, giving up older pokemon is something a stupid bad trainer would do.
Ash is a kind trainer, no doubt with that.

I'm actually agreeing with you on this point. The fact he Oak'd them gives off an unfortunate implications. Food for thought. The only thing I will say is that he's a bad protagonist, not that horrible of a trainer.

 

[Bguy7]

ash giving up his former region pokemon for the usual "having the feeling of first journey again" can't be really considered as proof of love.
Even if it is for promotion, giving up older pokemon is something a stupid bad trainer would do.

It has been clearly shown that when Ash does use/meet up with his older Pokemon again, they still have a strong bond. Having Professor Oak take care of them does not mean he's abandoning them by any means. Besides, if Ash just relied on the same six Pokemon throughout his entire journey, there wouldn't be much room for him to grow as a trainer, making him a worse trainer, not a better one.

Also ash is obviously a really bad protagonist especially for a shonen/kodomo anime.

You are welcome to say that, but this a thread about how good Ash is as a trainer, not a protagonist.

 

[Pikachu52]

ash giving up his former region pokemon for the usual "having the feeling of first journey again" can't be really considered as proof of love.
Even if it is for promotion, giving up older pokemon is something a stupid bad trainer would do.
Ash is a kind trainer, no doubt with that. but when we come to trainer and survival skills ash is clearly on the deadlast and morons group (a guy with no real skill and god dumb luck, pretty like naruto in the academy). Also ash is obviously a really bad protagonist especially for a shonen/kodomo anime.

Ash only stated it was for "having the feeling of first journey again" when he travelled to the Hoenn region. He took his entire team with him to Johto and rotated them as he caught new Pokémon in Johto. It's hardly unreasonable that a trainer would want to befriend many different types of Pokémon and catch new Pokémon in new regions to diversify and strengthen their team. And he did use some of his older Pokémon when he competed in the Sinnoh League.

He never looks at a map with all the gyms and plan out which route he wants to take. He never bothers to look at the pokedex, which is basically a hand-held database of pokemon in the anime, and sees which ones interest him.

He never needs to look at a map. One of the other travelling companions usually uses the map. And in any case the routes in the Pokémon world are usually straight with very few roads that branch off. There's usually only one continuous road between two towns so as long as he chose the right route leaving a town he'd be fine.

He (debatably) knows the type chart poorly.

Not really. He arguably knows which types of moves will be effective against which Pokémon. He sometimes will choose Pokémon who are at a disadvantage to their opponent in order to play a particular strategy and this often works. It's not possible to send in a Pokémon with a type advantage all the time.

As the protagonist, we as the viewers expect him to meet his goal. This isn't some Shakespearian tragedy where their flaws catch up to them and they die. To say he hasn't reached his goal yet is an understatement.

Not necessarily. There are a lot of stories where the protagonist fails to achieve their goals or falls short of the mark without them being a tragic hero. Ash is a good kind hearted person who does his best and his hard work more or less pays off - He's averaged top 8 in most regional leagues he fought in. That's hardly a small achievement given there are about 128 competitors in each league and each of them has also earned 8 badges.

A tragic hero is a character with a fatal flaw that is otherwise a good person whose flaw ultimately causes their downfall - The downfall is of their own engineering. Ash doesn't have such a flaw as a character. There are episodes where Ash does suffer consequences for possessing negative character traits e.g. the Hoenn episode Vanity Affair where his own overconfidence causes him to challenge Drake to a battle, which he goes on to loose badly and in doing so learns a lesson about confidence and pride.

 

[thor94]

A tragic hero is a character with a fatal flaw that is otherwise a good person whose flaw ultimately causes their downfall - The downfall is of their own engineering. Ash doesn't have such a flaw as a character. There are episodes where Ash does suffer consequences for possessing negative character traits e.g. the Hoenn episode Vanity Affair where his own overconfidence causes him to challenge Drake to a battle, which he goes on to loose badly and in doing so learns a lesson about confidence and pride.

Ash fatal flaw: power, evolution, mega evolution, rare powerful pokemon doesn't matter when you have friendship => kicked out of all leagues by a guy using what ash deny => so ash is indeed a tragic hero.

 

[Navin]

I guarantee half these arguments and this thread length wouldn't have happened if this was made after DP and before BW.

 

[Janovy]

I guarantee half these arguments and this thread length wouldn't have happened if this was made after DP and before BW.

This whole thread is pointless.

We have DP and XY demonstrating Ash's amazing trainer skills, BW being an obvious exception. What more do people want?

Is Ash really that bad? No he isn't. Ash is good, he's a real good trainer.

 

[Bguy7]

This whole thread is pointless.

We have DP and XY demonstrating Ash's amazing trainer skills, BW being an obvious exception. What more do people want?

Is Ash really that bad? No he isn't. Ash is good, he's a real good trainer.

I wish it were that simple, but for some reason people just can't understand that.

 

[Pikachu52]

Ash fatal flaw: power, evolution, mega evolution, rare powerful pokemon doesn't matter when you have friendship => kicked out of all leagues by a guy using what ash deny => so ash is indeed a tragic hero.

His training strategy is hardly a flaw. Since when has friendship and kindness been a flaw. Every single successful trainer does pretty much the same including the ones who have beaten him. Ash's losses at the league have always been to a trainer who was just that little bit better than him or was just lucky on that day it has nothing to do with any flaw Ash has.

 

[Aduro]

His training strategy is hardly a flaw. Since when has friendship and kindness been a flaw. Every single successful trainer does pretty much the same including the ones who have beaten him. Ash's losses at the league have always been to a trainer who was just that little bit better than him or was just lucky on that day it has nothing to do with any flaw Ash has.

A flaw might be the wrong word, but Ash certainly has lost pokemon who he showed lots of love and affection for, Charizard, Squirtle, Lapras, Butterfree, Goodra, Larvitar, he helped them when they were weak or desperate and let them go when they were more mature or stronger in both character and power and they had opportunities elsewhere (although Charizard is there when he needs it). The fact that Ash is willing to let that happen with no resentment is what makes him a special trainer in my opinion and I'd rather see him lose to Cameron again than put his happiness before his pokemon.

But I don't think releasing pokemon is what holds Ash back anyway, after all he still has plenty of strong reserves like Sceptile, Snorlax and Infernape so the problem is probably with what Ash does with his pokemon in battle. His reliance on speed and power to win battles and never using status moves, along with the anime's refusal to let Ash grow permanently are the reasons why Ash loses, not luck.

 

[U.N. Owen]

But I don't think releasing pokemon is what holds Ash back anyway, after all he still has plenty of strong reserves like Sceptile, Snorlax and Infernape so the problem is probably with what Ash does with his pokemon in battle. His reliance on speed and power to win battles and never using status moves, along with the anime's refusal to let Ash grow permanently are the reasons why Ash loses, not luck.

His Pikachu and Hawlucha lack proper variety of moves. All of Pikachu's moves can be resisted by a steel type. All of Lucha's moves can be resisted by a fairy type. Granted, using brute force did help him, but Ash's strategy isn't one size fits all. His refusal take a different perspective is what holds him back. His greatest flaw is his rash nature. And the writing. That's a given.

 

[Aduro]

His Pikachu and Hawlucha lack proper variety of moves. All of Pikachu's moves can be resisted by a steel type. All of Lucha's moves can be resisted by a fairy type. Granted, using brute force did help him, but Ash's strategy isn't one size fits all. His refusal take a different perspective is what holds him back. His greatest flaw is his rash nature. And the writing. That's a given.

ITs not just typing, its that Ash has almost nothing but attacking moves. If Ash was a driver instead of a pokemon trainer he'd fail at that too because he wouldn't use the first two gears. Ash's only non-offensive moves on his whole team right now are double team and supersonic (which is used like a regular attack in the anime rather than a confusion move), and Ash showed with his Snivy that he doesn't know how to use status even when he does get it as it failed to use attract half the time. Ash almost never uses status, recovery or boosting moves besides the occasional double team and agility because he's incapable of growth in even the mildly complicated parts of battling.

With such an unbalanced team its no surprise that he uses nonsense like breaking trick room with an attack or using thunder on his own Pikachu and Swellow as a boosting move. But if Ash's Pikachu had some real status it might have been able to do something like paralyse Tobias' Darkrai, that would also go well with electro ball, orPikachu could learn substitute like Red's Pika from the manga and have fun with that, it could even fly with magnet rise and I'd by happy. Instead Ash's Pikachu just uses 2 similar electric attacks, a decent physical move in Iron Tail and a quick attack which doesn't seem to damage anything much.

 

[Bguy7]

ITs not just typing, its that Ash has almost nothing but attacking moves. If Ash was a driver instead of a pokemon trainer he'd fail at that too because he wouldn't use the first two gears. Ash's only non-offensive moves on his whole team right now are double team and supersonic (which is used like a regular attack in the anime rather than a confusion move), and Ash showed with his Snivy that he doesn't know how to use status even when he does get it as it failed to use attract half the time. Ash almost never uses status, recovery or boosting moves besides the occasional double team and agility because he's incapable of growth in even the mildly complicated parts of battling.

With such an unbalanced team its no surprise that he uses nonsense like breaking trick room with an attack or using thunder on his own Pikachu and Swellow as a boosting move. But if Ash's Pikachu had some real status it might have been able to do something like paralyse Tobias' Darkrai, that would also go well with electro ball, orPikachu could learn substitute like Red's Pika from the manga and have fun with that, it could even fly with magnet rise and I'd by happy. Instead Ash's Pikachu just uses 2 similar electric attacks, a decent physical move in Iron Tail and a quick attack which doesn't seem to damage anything much.

That is actually the first point against Ash being a good trainer that I can agree with somewhat. However, I would say that it doesn't matter because despite this, Ash still wins most of his battles. He makes up for his lack of such moves by coming up with other strategies, or just powering through it, which can work sometimes. Also, saying that Ash fails to use them in cases like Snivy and Attract is one thing, but he can't really blamed for most of his Pokemon not knowing non-offensive moves since Pokemon basically learn moves at random in the anime. It's not his fault that his only non-offensive moves are Double Team and Supersonic.

 

[thor94]

His training strategy is hardly a flaw. Since when has friendship and kindness been a flaw. Every single successful trainer does pretty much the same including the ones who have beaten him. Ash's losses at the league have always been to a trainer who was just that little bit better than him or was just lucky on that day it has nothing to do with any flaw Ash has.

i never said ash friendship is a flaw, i said denying power, mega, strong rare pokemon to mostly focus on friendship is ash flaw (red love his pokemon deeply but he know that powerful pokemon and evolution is necessary too, unlike ash).

That is actually the first point against Ash being a good trainer that I can agree with somewhat. However, I would say that it doesn't matter because despite this, Ash still wins most of his battles. He makes up for his lack of such moves by coming up with other strategies, or just powering through it, which can work sometimes. Also, saying that Ash fails to use them in cases like Snivy and Attract is one thing, but he can't really blamed for most of his Pokemon not knowing non-offensive moves since Pokemon basically learn moves at random in the anime. It's not his fault that his only non-offensive moves are Double Team and Supersonic.

But most of ash strategies are dumb luck and nonsense that normally can't physically work or have less than 1% of success (like the breaking trickroom or that thunder armor on flying pokemon or the fact ash pikachu is the sole electric pokemon in the anime able to hit ground pokemon, sadly for other anime trainer the type chart work perfectly when they use thunder move on ash and other ground pokemons)

 

[Janovy]

But most of ash strategies are dumb luck and nonsense that normally can't physically work or have less than 1% of success (like the breaking trickroom or that thunder armor on flying pokemon or the fact ash pikachu is the sole electric pokemon in the anime able to hit ground pokemon, sadly for other anime trainer the type chart work perfectly when they use thunder move on ash and other ground pokemons)

LOL. First of all, anime =/= games. If the writers want to make the Trick Room breakable, why not?

Second, Ash hasn't told Pikachu to use an electric attack on a ground type in a long time. Last time I remember it happening was in BW where he used it on Excadrill and Ash said it was just him warming himself up so he did it deliberately. Not to mention I can't remember the time Pikachu's electric moves worked on a ground type so I'm really not sure where you're getting all this from.

 

[Kormeister]

Not to mention I can't remember the time Pikachu's electric moves worked on a ground type so I'm really not sure where you're getting all this from.

First gen, Ash's Pikachu defeats Brock's Onix tho

 

[Captain America X]

i never said ash friendship is a flaw, i said denying power, mega, strong rare pokemon to mostly focus on friendship is ash flaw (red love his pokemon deeply but he know that powerful pokemon and evolution is necessary too, unlike ash).


But most of ash strategies are dumb luck and nonsense that normally can't physically work or have less than 1% of success (like the breaking trickroom or that thunder armor on flying pokemon or the fact ash pikachu is the sole electric pokemon in the anime able to hit ground pokemon, sadly for other anime trainer the type chart work perfectly when they use thunder move on ash and other ground pokemons)

1)Ash has never once said that he will never used a mega pokemon.Heck Ash hasn't had the chance to even use one so I don't see how that makes him a bad trainer when it's out of his control
2)So Ash allowing his pokemon to make their own choice to evolve and not forcing them against their will makes him a bad trainer?Sounds more like what dictator than a trainer.
3)Ash forcing and keeping their pokemon against their will when they rather be free makes him a good trainer?Once again sounds like a dictator.

So you rather see a trainer who will forces his pokemon to evolve and keep them even though they rather be with their family/friends etc?That trainer is probably the type of trainer that will have a lot of pokemon that will hold resentment against them.

Also Red has never forced his pokemon to evolve against their will,all of them evolve because they want to.Nor have I seen Red force/hold his pokemon against their will considering they all want to stay with him.And Red also doesn't catch super rare pokemon considering he just uses the same 6 pokemon while the rest were just made to fill up the pokedex.Heck Red gave away Mewtwo.

Also Trick Room being breakable is an anime rule so please tell me why it can't be broken?Also you do realise that Lucario used ground type move on Ash's Flying types right?Or did you conveniently ignore that to make Ash look bad?SO I guess your wrong...

 

[Navin]

Against grass pokemon like Torterra Fire Fang is obviously more effective than Iron Head. Fourth move at same time could had also been Hippowdon strongest attack with Bertha not being forced to use it.

4th move could also been something situational and/or ineffective. Fact that Bertha chose Fire Fang at that moment suggests it was probably the best move.

Let alone overlooking how Hippowdon could know more than 4 moves. Because from top of my head i can remember Flint Infernape using 5 moves in battle against Ash. With even Sinnoh sometime breaking rather unrealistic "4 move limit".

The show has been following the 4 move limit from the games for a long time.

Something Bertha visibly did with dodge and dig tactic from her Hippowdon asessing how perceptive as trainer Ash is. Hippowdon receiving one leaf storm which didn't damaged him nearly as much as some would think doesn't suddenly change that implying how E4 was cornered with Ash gaining advantage in battle.

As if with Hippowdon's movepool, Dodge & Dig isn't as creative as it can get. That was the effective way to defeat a relatively immobile Torterra, otherwise Ash would have kept up with Suicide Mountains or Leaf Storms on the ground. Why wouldn't a super-effective Leaf Storm to an exposed Hippowdon not be damaging again?

Its pretty clear to me how Bertha was during whole game two steps ahead with her Hippowdon without much trouble overpowering Torterra strongest move. Something even Palmer Rhyperior had trouble in dealing with.

Clearly "two ahead steps" by letting her Hippowdon got blasted mid-air by a Leaf Storm.

So no, i definitely wouldn't say Berha was battling at full force. Nor it can be ad hoc assumed "how strongest gym leader go easy on Ash, while E4 members are battling at maximum of their strength". Being logical fallacy and clear case of cherry picking; when battle sequence and circumstances say otherwise.

Difference being one is likely bound by regulation of strength, while the other is free to battle. Fact that Bertha chose to be proactive, and didn't just let Hippowdon sit there and take shots, tells me she wasn't sandbagging. Not to mention she was told and saw his skill as a trainer before that battle. Her giving him advice afterwards doesn't change either. So no it's not a case of me just "cherry-picking."

Signature pokemon does not necessarily mean its strongest one. For example Misty signature pokemon are Staryu, Starmie. But i say its actually Gyarados who is her strongest one for now.

All the E4/Champ in Sinnoh showed off their in-game strongest mons.

Is what i call overhyping things to greater scals than what they were showed to be.

Nobody is "overhyping" Ash either.

Volkner had to hit Infernape with thunder from Jolteon, three thunder fangs and damage from iron tail through Luxray when sending Ash pokemon into the air after using dig to bring Infernape on last legs.In meantime it was needed just one mach punch from Flint pokemon to faint Ash Infernape.

Again, newly evolved Infernape vs seasoned signature-mon Infernape of E4 who knows all about where it hurts. That weakness/disadvantage is proven by the fact that Flint's Infernape needed multiple blows and a longer fight to bring down Pikachu in the same battle (and Infernape's endurance improved in relation to that). Also ironically made evident by the fact that it could tank more shots from Volkner's Luxray.

Even if we pretend that Volkner was going easy, so did Flint. When his Infernape kicked away Ash Infernape fire wheel with leg or breaking flamethrower with its hands not using full force at all.

Multiple examples show that Flint's Infernape has insane defense. That doesn't mean it wasn't trying, but more so it places a lot of emphasis on defense.

Now for story needs writers can make Pikachu strong enough and resistant that no attack or force known in pokemon world could defeat it taking down pokemon Gods by itself. But there exists line between believable, flowed or downright forced and insulting for intelligence writing.

Or the fact that in-universe already explains Pikachu's strength fluctuation as a result of him being an anomaly but still suffering from in-species weakness and being a reflection of Ash's own inconsistency as a battler.

To me it seemed more like Flint and Infernape were playing around for fun. When letting Pikachu hit its body bouncing of it. I believe this presumption is partially justified with grin on both trainer and Infernape faces.

Subsequently followed by aggressive move calls by Flint and Infernape having the same angry facial expressions when it battled Cynthia's Garchomp. The initial grins are just their battle-loving personalities on display.

Right after Hippowdon used dig hitting Torterra with iron head for first time, Bertha pokemon was in clear position to follow up with Fire Fang like it was case when it hit Ash pokemon with iron head for second time.

The first strike didn't send Torterra flying into the air where Hippowdon has the opportunity to latch on with Fire Fang and pull a Seismic-Toss-esque finisher. Probable explanation is that Torterra took damage and lost stamina to hold its ground during the second strike.

It is not set in stone how Electivire would win if static didn't activate. It was alleviating circumstance making path toward win for Ash easier, yes. But its not only factor leading toward Volkner defeat. Especially when we take in account how Ash Pikachu was facing before that and afterwards tougher, more diffucult pokemon than Electivire still managing to pull things through.

Electivire was plainly winning, and was too fast for Pikachu to land those Iron Tails if not for the Static activation.

First of all "feeling climb" isn't same as taking damage. Neither does collision if your on winning side overpowering opponent. Only thing Bertha pokemon spent there was its energy from that clash.Torterra had upper hand, yet it wasn't even able to tie with Hippowdon which goes more in support of E4 strength, rather than Ash's in that fight to be honest. Only true damage which Hippowdon took was leaf storm. Everything else is grasping on straws as far as im concerned.

There's literally an earthquake happening underneath you. Anyway, I'm not a fan of Suicide Mountain either, since Hippowdon had the clear advantage of running down the mountain, yet still it only pushed Torterra a little deeper into the ground. Again, it's not always about "true damage," but sheer exertion as well.

not in single moment

AKA aerial Leaf Storm blast.

Chances are how it could be capable of continuing battle even if Luxray attack landed.

What?!?? Infernape was down, literally about to be KO'd...it wouldn't have had any chance of activating Blaze if not for the TR inference. TR basically bought that precious time for Infernape. There's no guarantee Blaze always kicks in a fight. Even newly evolved Infernape didn't have the opportunity to kick in Blaze against Flint's.

That same trainer Palmer faced was still able to defeat what didn't seemed to be Volkner weakest pokemon at all giving him one hell of a fight.

I don't understand..are you talking about Torterra?!?? Torterra lost to Volkner's Electivire worse than its fight against Hippowdon...

Flint praising his friend about his battle abilities is irrelevant and doesn't serve as any proof whatsoever of Volkner being on E4 rank.

Perhaps, though the incessant compliments do suggest that Flint thinks highly of Volkner's battling prowess.

None of 6 Frontier Brains except maybe Brandon revealed anything to indicate how they would be just as tough as E4 members.

Palmer vs Cynthia clip. There ya go.

That goes actually in support of E4 members, rather than Brandon itself. Since he would need army of legendary pokemon just to have chance. You could say how Brandon wouldn't need legendary, but lets be real in here. Legendary golems are his strongest pokemon being far more impressive than any other pokemon he has. And against someone like E4 member i sincerely doubt he wluld be able to match them without resoting to his aces.

That doesn't lessen him as a trainer. Sure, you could argue its "cheap," but nobody stopped Tobias from winning Sinnoh with his Darkrai and Latios and god-knows what else he had. As for Brandon's other mons, don't forget he also has a Dusclops that took out Charizard (yes, I know that Charizard could have won that fight if not for Ash's gaffe), Ash's strongest mon. So it's not like he can't train other Pokemon, kek.

Palmer and Cynthia case doesn't prove anything because battle was only briefly showed which for all we know could just be exhibition match and not serious duel. Similar in how it was case with Junior Cup in BW where we saw Cynthia battling E4 Caitlin.

What? Both trainers going for aggressive attacks, and you're dismissing it for zero reason. Heck, even the Junior Cup example, it's not as if Caitlin or Cynthia weren't trying to win either.

Maybe i could buy best Frontier Brain being able to challenge E4 and still have chance to defeat them(weaker E4 members that is).

Okay...

But gym leaders like Volkner or Koga who are generally weaker and easier challenge than Frontier Brains(who do i need to remind are ranked higher on diffiuculty scale than gym leaders)?

...that's why I provided a fluid scale. In general, FB > GL, but some of the best GLs are more than on par with the FBs, such as Volkner.

Maybe its not best example; but Jasmine herself is ranked as 5th gym leader in Gold, Silver games. Yet she was absolutely destroyed in anime when facing Flint(who in games is ranked as lower E4 than Lucian).

Yes, it's not the best example (5th GL vs 2nd E4). Yet even in that fight, Infernape had to tank numerous blows before finding the right opportunity to finish with a super-effective move. We discussed this earlier, I'm sure.

That example still isn't very good. Since it tries to apply real life situations and logic to fiction.

Seriously? That's your rebuttal - that it's "fiction." Fiction or no fiction, it's evident that training is modeled after real-world athletics. And in athletics, improvement does happen on a logarithmic growth curve. A person who has been training for a decade or more isn't going to make a "great leap forward" - any improvement would be lateral adjustment or incremental improvement.

Needless to say as examples of massive gap existing between even E4 members and champions like Cynthia or Diantha (if battles vs Lucian, Aaron or Wilkstrom followed by easy defeats are something to go by) shows there can exist huge difference even between elite battlers there exists opening gates toward massive improvement even when your already good at this. Making difference between great and outstanding trainers.

[I don't recall every knowing the scorecard between Cynthia vs Lucian/Aaron...heck even if it was some type of straightfoward 6-3 win, real world example: Djokovic defeated Federer 4-5-3 at the '12. That doesn't mean there is a "massive" gulf between them. Both are still very close in ability.]

Hence why by traveling, entering various tournaments where its known to expect tough competiton, ability to seek for rare and new pokemon with unique abilities. And meeting professionals and specialists who would be at higher level than you are exponentially increases. With history showing how gym leaders who travel for longer periods of time freezing their positions improved significantly more than those who did not.

But you also have to consider that the gym leaders who did travel, such as Brock, Misty, Cilan, and Clemont, are also young. Meaning their improvement is naturally going to occur as well, regardless of with them being with Ash or not.

Examples of Cerulean and Pewter gyms being in risk of shut down by Pokemon inspection agency due to absence of gym leadre or not having qualified gym leader to test out trainers. Were not something added from dub existing in Japanese original version as well. Exceptions to rule such as Fantina are just that: exceptions. Rather than general rule of thumb. Volkner didn't left town still being available as gym leader regardless of his attitude toward battling challengers.

Volkner being in town and not being in town made no difference. He just gave out free badges and nobody stripped him of his rank. Inspection agencies exist, but Volkner could have just used some BS reason like "I'm on my sabbatical" and that sufficed apparently.

Lastly Ash may be fortunate, but when take in account few factors such as Ash not using best he could offer as far as his pokemon team goes and his tendency to forgett certain mechanics. Such as thunder type attacks being useless vs Electabuzz line for plot purposes to make things nmore dramatic and intense for him delivering more trouble than needed.

He was very fortunate that Volkner just wanted to have a fun, didn't use his Raichu and instead a throwaway Raichu, had Electivire screwed by Static, and TR saving Luxray from wiping out Infernape. As for Ash's Pokemon selection, both Pikachu and Infernape are almost universally regarded as his tier-1 mons [Torterra is a bit controversial since it did lose, but against strong competition].

(Did he know about Motor Drive before that battle?)

Clair

1. May not have gone all-out.
2. Used a newly-evolved Dragonair and still managed to make life difficult for Charizard.
3. Wonder how he would have fared against that Dragonite who 2 v 1'd Zard/Dragonair for a while that she captured later...

Volkner

Explained already.

-Blaine,

1. 1-in-a-million "Horn" fluke win.
2. Allowing Ash a 1 v 1 rematch as opposed to a standard 3 v 3 (which he surely would have won).
3. Zard going absolutely nuts to defeat Magmar (surviving and overpowering it underneath lava...wtf...).

Giovanni(not hesitating to use Mewtwo when he started losing to Gary)

Giovanni DGAF about little Gary, and wanted an excuse to see what Mewtwo can do (not to mention Gary's mouth probably led him to make that decision even easier).