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Is Ash really that bad??

Discussion in 'Pokémon Animé Discussion' started by queerstin, Feb 25, 2015.

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  1. Pikachu52

    Pikachu52 Well-Known Member

    Meyer only uses Mega Evolution when he's wearing his Blaziken Mask disguise, so Ash isn't aware he's able to. Prof Sycamore doesn't seem to be in the business of giving out Mega rings, as he didn't give one to Alain. My view the Mega Ring and Mega stone is something Ash will have to earn rather than be given. The most likely chance of Ash getting a mega ring will be if he meets Alain.
     
  2. Gutsman

    Gutsman Indigo Champion

    Was Ash even that bad back in Kanto? Sure, he sucked at first, but doesn't everybody? He ended up getting all 8 badges and then he made it to the Pokemon League top 16 (I think? It's been a while). Even if he's not among the best he certainly isn't bad by any means.
     
  3. Mrs. Oreo

    Mrs. Oreo Banned

    Well he was a rookie so I don't give him much grief for his mistakes back then and looking back him making top 16 was kind of good at the time.
     
  4. Crystal

    Crystal The Pokemon Observer

    Rather then his skills and ability, many people (including me) dislike his personalities and characteristics, and the shelled with plot-armor over-the-top portrayal of his personal principle of "Friendship concurs everything".

    Someone in another thread already hit the nail in the head about this issue, is that many fans accommodate themselves as long as he does fine in battles. But that cannot redeem personalities and characteristics, and that is basically something mutually exclusive from level of skills and abilities.
     
  5. Sprinter1988

    Sprinter1988 Well-Known Member

    The trouble is back in Kanto several badges were given to Ash despite his not winning a battle - although he did battle Brock, Misty and Erika, their respective battles were cut short and the badges were awarded for other reasons while Ash got a badge from Sabrina for making her laugh. Then he didn't even face Giovanni for the Earth Badge and instead won it from the TRio being their usual incompetent selves.
     
  6. Mrs. Oreo

    Mrs. Oreo Banned

    Well I didn't like the Kanto gym matches in general but Charizard vs Magmar made up for the bad ones I think ha ha. ^^
     
  7. Aduro

    Aduro Mt.BtlMaster

    While I do think Ash definitely earned his badge from Erika by saving her gloom by risking his own Ash did barely earn any Kanto badges normally. he only really beat Surge and Koga fair battles. Blaine had to battle Ash's last pokemon, his charizard one on one with magmar even though Blaine had taken out Ash's other two pokemon while Ash never ko'd Blaine's ninetales. Then again given Ash's battles against Whitney, Wattson, Maylene, Roxie and Grant he basically never won a full set of badges in fair matches anywhere else unless you count the Orange League.
     
  8. Ash meeting Alain would lead to one problem. Steven being a Champion again when the Anime is practically Pokemon Yellow, Crystal, Emerald, Platinum, and the first Black and White. The writers will have to explain how Steven became champion again and Wallace's whereabouts.
     
  9. U.N. Owen

    U.N. Owen In Brightest Day, In Blackest Night ...

    There's the first problem. You're asking the writers to explain whatever crap they pull.
     
  10. That's true. It's impossible to ask them anything like this lol
     
  11. Bguy7

    Bguy7 The Dragon Lord

    The Mega Evolution Specials are already confirmed to take place in the same continuity as the anime, so Ash meeting Alain wouldn't cause any problems that don't already exist. Steven's position is easily explained away as him having defeated Wallace and reclaiming his position as Champion.
     
  12. Mrs. Oreo

    Mrs. Oreo Banned

    The writers would prolly not explain why he's a Champion again to begin with but I don't think Steven and Ash will meet each other again any ways. ^^;
     
  13. thor94

    thor94 Well-Known Member

    Even if it happen, writers will have probably forgotten the two already meet each other.

    if writers were reallistic and competent, ash could be an incredible trainer and aura guardian. unfortunately there are not, so in eyes of fanbase ash look like a loser who win most of his battle by dumb luck and plot armor. and barely once in ten, win fair and square by using skills.
     
  14. U.N. Owen

    U.N. Owen In Brightest Day, In Blackest Night ...

    If my memory serves me, I think he did.
     
  15. Bguy7

    Bguy7 The Dragon Lord

    They haven't met again yet, but there was a reference made to Steven when Ash and Sawyer met, and Ash didn't indicate that he had met Steven before, inferring that he's forgotten, but not necessarily meaning he has for sure.
     
  16. Mrs. Oreo

    Mrs. Oreo Banned

    I'm glad he's not an aura guardian tho that was good in the 8th film and a few episodes where he used aura but him just being a trainer is a better occupation for him I think. ^^
     
  17. Navin

    Navin MALDREAD

    I can't continue if you keep typing this many words per post. A lot of this was repetitive, verbose, and unnecessary. I just compiled everything into five sections and briefly answered them because a line-by-line would have taken literal hours.


    I. Bertha vs Ash


    1. I have zero idea what you are trying to say here. There was a vulnerable Torterra. Bertha had the opportunity to deliver the KO blow. She chose the most effective move to accomplish that, which was Fire Fang. That fourth move is irrelevant. It doesn't matter if it was Bulldoze or Sleep Talk or whatever, because at that moment when Torterra was exposed going into the air, she chose Fire Fang as the finisher.

    2. ...?!?? Those are two completely different Pokemon. Blastoise's 'stats' are naturally higher than that of Magmar's. It's like me saying that a Tackle from Arceus is way more powerful than a random Venusaur's Solar Beam. Obviously? You can't make this comparison, and I don't see the purpose behind it either.

    3. Name me one particular fight among these in which a Pokemon used more than 4 moves. If a Pokemon off-screen learns or relearns a move, that doesn't count. During a battle, it still only has 4 moves. The vast majority of the time, if not 100% post-AG, all Pokemon have 4 moves during any given battle. Ergo, Bertha's Hippowdon only had one other move. Again, not that this matters whatsoever.

    4. Stop - I told you Torterra used only 2 moves, so the "3 moves" (out of 4 regardless) is BS. Bertha is an elderly dignified woman. What on earth do you expect? Do you want her to start shouting and aggressively moving her hands? Flint did that against Ash - are you now going to contradict yourself when you claim he was supposedly sandbagging. You have this warped impression of this battle that a desperate Bertha could have called upon an arsenal of a dozen epic moves and Hippowdon would have pulled a video game-esque 2HKO. This is disillusional.

    5. The angle means absolutely nothing. Torterra had no idea where the attack was coming the first time either and it didn't go flying into the sky. There was "no increase in difficulty level." Hippowdon ran the same Dodge & Dig, and this time Torterra wasn't successful in evading it AND had taken too much damage/lost stamina to hold its ground and thus went airborne. That gave Bertha the right moment to finally use Fire Fang. No other moment, whether it be after first Dodge & Dig or after Suicide Mountain collapse, gave that opportunity, despite your opinion that Hippowdon could have gone full Playstation on Torterra.

    6. She chose the most effective strategy considering Hippowdon's movepool to combat an immobile Torterra with Grass-type moves, which was Dodge & Dig. You seem to be agreeing with me on the point that giving advice = / = going easy. Yeah, she is better and she wants to push him to keep working harder. That doesn't mean that Hippowdon vs Torterra was a stomp. On the contrary, it was a brusing clash of tanks that Hippowdon prevailed, but Torterra made it work for the victory. The way you present it, it's as if Torterra gently bounced off Hippowdon's belly. That move was punishing, and unlike other fights, Hippowdon wasn't simply standing there taking free shots either. Heck, we are not talking about Agatha vs Ash, but that's another example I can use where Ash gives an admirable fight against an E4. In general, Hippowdon put some work into defeating Torterra.

    7. Once again, they are gym leaders. Their purpose is to inspire the challengers to try their best and win this badge. FFS, how does this even make any sense to you? According to you, Kanto Ash > Koga, and Clair's newly-evolved Dragonair is her strongest. *Facepalm* It's like saying Shota the rookie will defeat an Olympia going all-out (kek).

    8. Everything here is an exaggeration. Your loquacious fawning of Bertha suggest otherwise: Bertha's Hippowdon needing only 3 moves to win (but Torterra used 2). Bertha's Hippowdon magically having a dozen secret maneuvers (not true). Bertha's Hippowdon having way more powerful moves other than an effective Fire Fang (irrelevant). Bertha's Hippowdon being somehow capable of wining off first Dodge & Dig or post-Suicide Mountain but choosing not to (not true). Bertha's Hippowdon not exerting any energy and taking that Leaf Storm like a tickle (not true). Bertha's face not becoming desperate (irrelevant). Bertha's giving advice = Ash is nothing compared to her (exaggeration).


    II. Flint vs Ash


    1. Difference is apparent considering the comparative stamina levels between Infernape and Pikachu during-Flint match and post-Flint match. Rest is more biased, inconsistent interpretation on your part. More trivialization of Pikachu's performance vs Infernape. ZERO acknowledgement of stamina/defense/exertion in battles for "m-muh one move win."

    2. Uh...what are talking about? Look at Infernape. Same countenance vs Pikachu and Garchomp. Flint making the same aggressive, proactive calls vs Pikachu and Garchomp. No, he, just like Bertha, was not sandbagging versus Ash.


    III. Volkner vs Ash



    1. How long has he been a gym leader? How many challengers has he taken over that time span? Statistically, a decent number of "high[er] class" trainers will have passed over the years. It's not even that they could defeat him based on his own professional limits. He didn't have even enjoy the fight, meaning they all paled in comparison to him.

    2. Friendly as they may be, they are still rivals. Flint's not going to praise him all day. Fact that he compliments him incessantly even while he's an E4 and Volkner is (in your opinion several levels below him) a gym leader is further proof that this dude is powerful. Also, mere fact that his reflective in-game personality (maybe it's also mentioned in the show, I forgot) intends to challenge the E4 is another bonus.

    3. What...? Having a fun battle, and not utter stomps like what he's used to (that's why he's surprised Ash even got to #3), is what he wanted to reignite his passion. I'm not even going to bother with "Bertha was sandbagging. Ergo why Hippowdon couldn't defeat it faster than Electivire" because it's utterly stupid. I could throw the same card for Volkner.

    4. You keep mentioning him not being able to leave as some sort of illogical reason that his skills have stagnated. Despite the fact that this man is the strongest gym leader and in his prime, whose skills are praised by E4 and FB alike.

    5. You don't need to list me the feats of Ash's other tier-1s. Yes, Infernape is on par with the others. As a Chimchar, it starred in most of the Sinnoh gyms. Paul's Pokemon are equally as powerful, if not more powerful, than Gary's - so Infernape's triple KO is extremely impressive. That alongside the performance against Volkner (even though it should have lost, it was an admirable effort nontheless) provides enough proof of its rank.

    6. So now you've shifted your argument to, "Even if that Thunder Fang would have landed, Infernape would have survived and have activated Blaze." (BTW several of examples you've listed were with Pokemon given a few moments to lift themselves up, whereas none would have been given here if not for TR interference) Seeing how Infernape activated Blaze some moments later, it was already at the tipping point, and any further direct hits would have been a definite KO. Thus, if not TR interference, that Thunder Fang would have been the final blow, and Infernape wouldn't have had the opportunity to activate its ability (like what happened vs Flint's Infernape).


    IV. Trainers = Athletes



    1. Those are exceptional trainers. I fail to comprehend how that signifies that trainers don't undergo logical, natural logarithmic growth curves.

    2. I have zero idea what you are trying to say here. You introduced language, and I am telling you language proficiency, like athletics, like Training, is modeled by logarithmic growth.

    3. None of those scenes ever showed the scorecard and how the entire full battle played out is left to presumption. It could have been 6-4 for all we know. Not that this matters. Even if Champions are the best, they are not ahead by much. Cynthia vs Frontier Brain Palmer is further proof that the gap between all these high-level trainers is minimal, which makes PERFECT SENSE in relation to athletes.

    4. Obviously, you did not comprehend. Older trainers on sabbaticals gain incremental improvements or have lateral adjustments - more or less finetuning. The "more sophisticated and complex" techniques are stuff that can be built upon, but it's NOT massive or as fundamental as the foundation. This is the basis behind athletics and here as well. I mention youth because it's most applicable to them (unless an older person decides to become a trainer for the first time, then he/she will also experience noticeable, rapid improvement like the younger rookies). And it's well-know plenty of growth happens best at a younger age. This fits perfectly with point #2 above.


    V. Other Stuff


    1. No, it's NOT my interpretation. It's face. Watch the battle. Hear the dialogue. Exhibition battle or not, they were both trying to obviously win the fight. And what are you talking about? Gothitelle smashed Garchomp into a wall. Garchomp smashed into Gothitelle. That was not with "elegance," but with "intensity."

    2. A Dusclops that dueled both Ash's strongest Pokemon and his powerful Bulbasaur = "not even close in strength..." Kek. How is he any less creative? Experienced? Skillful? You're being biased once again. It doesn't matter if legendaries are cheap or not. They follow him. They make him a deadly trainer.

    3. Funny. First off, you tried to equate Palmer's performance to that of Paul's. Now that has been squashed, you're now arguing how that equates to Cynthia's level. Considering Garchomp's power, the fact that even that excerpt showed Palmer's Milotic outplaying Garchomp means A LOT.

    4. That wasn't a problem in DP. Fact is, Volkner's Electivire was very powerful that Ash had no answer for until the lucky Static activation.

    5. Hmm let's see...Dragonair knew Rain Dance, which was convenient in putting out the flames. Clair wasn't trying to harm the Dragonite that she once knew. Just like Ash arbitrarily chooses a Pokemon to help, she chose Dragonair (and to give it more experience). Once again, newly-evolved Dragonair.

    6. Charizard battled well beyond its current state in that fight (ex: Torkoal vs Registeel). And mentioning Giovanni as an example was pointless.
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2015
  18. U.N. Owen

    U.N. Owen In Brightest Day, In Blackest Night ...

    My conclusion is this. Is he a good trainer? More or less. Is he a good protagonist? To me, he's not.
     
  19. Crystal

    Crystal The Pokemon Observer

    As we are the audience watching a show of dramatic events happening one after another, Ash Ketchum being an interesting protagonist character is IMO much much MUCH more important than being a competent strong trainer.

    Basically U.N. Owen just sums up my thoughts. That's why I feel the Pokemon Anime is boring, because Ash is so boring as a character.
     
  20. Navin

    Navin MALDREAD

    I found him interesting when seeing his progress from clueless rookie in OS into a competent strong trainer by DP. Much more than seeing him back to being dumb but lively in BW.
     
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