RedJirachi
Veteran member
Yup. Can anyone say "silver medal syndrome?"
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Is Ash really that bad??
- Thread starter queerstin
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Yup. Can anyone say "silver medal syndrome?"
unfrotunately, the first 32 badges and league tops mean nothing when you immediately go into a new region, forget everything you knew and end up performing at the level of someone with 3 badges by leaguetime.
Crystal
The Pokemon Observer
I just don't understand, how come many still trying to defend Ash is not bad at all by using the ranking of all his previous league, when those are already filed in history of discontinuity?
I don't want to rewrite my previous post, as I knew the longer the post, the less likely people in this forum would read. So I'll shorten it up to the minimum where everyone can understand.
Ash Ketchum, as being a trainer within the Pokemon universe, his trainer skill level changes from time to time as the plot demands, so can be from weakest to strongest, but from overall average he is just mediocre to something a little bit above average. As being a protagonist from character design viewpoint, he lacks some significant traits which makes him stand out from a stereotypic energetic shonen manga protagonist, hence he is super ordinary where for many times you will wonder why this everyday commoner was chosen as the protagonist, why it must be him but not someone else? As being a character within a narrative story, he is the worst I'd ever seen, not only due to the poorly written plot and lack of continuity/consistency of the entire show, but IMO also due to he wasn't the kind of character best suited for genre of adventure journey story with proxy battles, so kind of felt inappropriate about him being a trainer.
I think it is consensus now within the fandom that this show doesn't have continuity. But still that is not the most frustrating aspect as there are many shows keeping its status quo, yet keeping its consistency. Pokemon anime doesn't have both the continuity and consistency, which is just worse upon worse.
Someone probably will argue that doesn't make Ash himself bad, because what was bad is the plot and story-writing itself, but not the character himself. The one who says this is surely half-blinded and double standard. Because plot and character go hand-in-hand in story-writing, you can't establish a story without any character. If plot is poorly planned, it will ultimately reflected onto every aspect of the character; and if character is poorly designed, it will also affect the plot planning negatively. So if one side goes wrong, the other side is also to be blamed.
Due to the poor story of the show, Ash also became unpleasant and disagreeable in the eyes of many audience. It just doesn't matter how powerful he is as a trainer, and doesn't matter what marvelous achievements did he achieved in the past, such as Top 16/8/4 in the league (Besides, is this really anything that great to brag about?), seeing/battling/befriending many legendaries, saving the world and the day for so many times, etc. Due to the poor continuity and inconsistency of the show, all of these previous past just become meaningless. Rather oppositely, it produces negative effect because canon acknowledge all the prior events, but doesn't develop the character. This is just equivalent to telling me a high school student failed to admitted to university despite that he already matriculated for countless time, it just doesn't make sense. Hence Ash just failed as being alive like an actual human being which is situationally relatable and emotionally empathizable. As the series continue further, the less possible it is to associate ones' thinking and emotion to him, because he doesn't change significantly since the beginning (except his outfit) despite that his past record continue to accumulate according to canon, it is just impossible to imagine a normal human being achieved so much things in his lifetime yet still act like no knowledge had accumulated.
I don't want to rewrite my previous post, as I knew the longer the post, the less likely people in this forum would read. So I'll shorten it up to the minimum where everyone can understand.
Ash Ketchum, as being a trainer within the Pokemon universe, his trainer skill level changes from time to time as the plot demands, so can be from weakest to strongest, but from overall average he is just mediocre to something a little bit above average. As being a protagonist from character design viewpoint, he lacks some significant traits which makes him stand out from a stereotypic energetic shonen manga protagonist, hence he is super ordinary where for many times you will wonder why this everyday commoner was chosen as the protagonist, why it must be him but not someone else? As being a character within a narrative story, he is the worst I'd ever seen, not only due to the poorly written plot and lack of continuity/consistency of the entire show, but IMO also due to he wasn't the kind of character best suited for genre of adventure journey story with proxy battles, so kind of felt inappropriate about him being a trainer.
I think it is consensus now within the fandom that this show doesn't have continuity. But still that is not the most frustrating aspect as there are many shows keeping its status quo, yet keeping its consistency. Pokemon anime doesn't have both the continuity and consistency, which is just worse upon worse.
Someone probably will argue that doesn't make Ash himself bad, because what was bad is the plot and story-writing itself, but not the character himself. The one who says this is surely half-blinded and double standard. Because plot and character go hand-in-hand in story-writing, you can't establish a story without any character. If plot is poorly planned, it will ultimately reflected onto every aspect of the character; and if character is poorly designed, it will also affect the plot planning negatively. So if one side goes wrong, the other side is also to be blamed.
Due to the poor story of the show, Ash also became unpleasant and disagreeable in the eyes of many audience. It just doesn't matter how powerful he is as a trainer, and doesn't matter what marvelous achievements did he achieved in the past, such as Top 16/8/4 in the league (Besides, is this really anything that great to brag about?), seeing/battling/befriending many legendaries, saving the world and the day for so many times, etc. Due to the poor continuity and inconsistency of the show, all of these previous past just become meaningless. Rather oppositely, it produces negative effect because canon acknowledge all the prior events, but doesn't develop the character. This is just equivalent to telling me a high school student failed to admitted to university despite that he already matriculated for countless time, it just doesn't make sense. Hence Ash just failed as being alive like an actual human being which is situationally relatable and emotionally empathizable. As the series continue further, the less possible it is to associate ones' thinking and emotion to him, because he doesn't change significantly since the beginning (except his outfit) despite that his past record continue to accumulate according to canon, it is just impossible to imagine a normal human being achieved so much things in his lifetime yet still act like no knowledge had accumulated.
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Aegiscalibur
Add Witty Title Here
If Ash gets those league rankings with legit tactics, why doesn't he use them consistently? Can you really be a good trainer if you have chronic amnesia?
MidnightMelody
Hopeful for Gen 8
He only forgot things in Unova anyone who says otherwise is not watching the show
Lord Trollbias
Y'all Salty Bishes
Seeing as how the only League he actually forgot "tactics" in was Unova that complaint doesn't fly here. Take the development from OS->AG->DP and you'll definitely find he's been improving and expanding on his battling skills.
And besides Ash's style isn't one heavily based on pre-[lanned startegies but rather adapting to his opponent's battling style.
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phanpycross
God-king
Does Ash even have tactics?
At most he adapts to what he's opponent is doing at a fast rate, but other than that, I can only think of countershield, which was basically only a single gym.
At most he adapts to what he's opponent is doing at a fast rate, but other than that, I can only think of countershield, which was basically only a single gym.
Aegiscalibur
Add Witty Title Here
"Adapting" meaning doing some random thing that only works because there are no consistent laws of physics? There's a name for that and it's plot armor.
He's hardly ever consistent with his strategies was the point; the only one he used regularly was the Counter Shield, which he stopped teaching his Pokemon after DP.
Lord Trollbias
Y'all Salty Bishes
Plot armor can be applied to anything. His losses, draws, etc...
And you're talking about the laws of physics in the POKEMON anime. Ok. I'm done here.
Bguy7
The Dragon Lord
Yes, he is a bad character, but isn't the question here whether or not he's a bad trainer? He can be a bad character, but still be a powerful trainer.
I would say that all we have to do is look at his win-loss ratio. He wins much more than he loses, especially in important battles. That makes him an at least decent trainer, if not a good one.
in fact ash skill as trainer depending what stat we use.
by league performance he is above the average trainer, so he look good trainer.
but if we include trainer general skills, ash is really bad.
he can't survive on the wild by himself, can't cook for himself and his pokemon, barely know the basic about pokemon raising (the male gym leader friend perform 80% of the job), doesn't know the basic of pokemon battle (strategy, type table, etc).
ash is also really bad with his over time performance, especially after sinnoh travel. the main trait of shonen MC even if they are the stupidity incarnate is growing stronger and smarter during their journeys and become closer to reach their dreams. In this case, ash is a complete failure as character and maybe trainer. after 5 and half regions, ash is always naive and dense, repeat the same mistakes about basics, unable to perform the basics of the travelling stuff (going from A to B without being lost, cooking, raising and caring his pokemon more than battle training, etc), didn't really improved in ranking (in fact he regressed often), didn't become closer to his dream.
by league performance he is above the average trainer, so he look good trainer.
but if we include trainer general skills, ash is really bad.
he can't survive on the wild by himself, can't cook for himself and his pokemon, barely know the basic about pokemon raising (the male gym leader friend perform 80% of the job), doesn't know the basic of pokemon battle (strategy, type table, etc).
ash is also really bad with his over time performance, especially after sinnoh travel. the main trait of shonen MC even if they are the stupidity incarnate is growing stronger and smarter during their journeys and become closer to reach their dreams. In this case, ash is a complete failure as character and maybe trainer. after 5 and half regions, ash is always naive and dense, repeat the same mistakes about basics, unable to perform the basics of the travelling stuff (going from A to B without being lost, cooking, raising and caring his pokemon more than battle training, etc), didn't really improved in ranking (in fact he regressed often), didn't become closer to his dream.
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Aegiscalibur
Add Witty Title Here
Who are you even arguing against? I agree completely. Plot armor applies to just about everything and there aren't any laws of physics worth mentioning. That was my whole point.
Basically, it sounds like you want to call someone a good trainer just because he by the writers' whim happens to win. I call someone a good trainer if there are actual, justifiable reasons why they win beyond plot. Would you call an athlete good if he always won because the events were rigged?
Crystal
The Pokemon Observer
When did the OP ever ask about is Ash Ketchum a good trainer or not? The original question and concern of OP was what makes Ash so bad which became so intolerable to continue watching the show. I'm simply answering the question as it was intended.
In case of his trainer skill, I'll also admit that he is not that bad, in fact for so many times even starting from OS era where he shows he adapts to battles quick and able to counter the opponent in creative and unexpected ways. But just like the below post by thor94 mentioned, other then battling skill, his other skills are just bad, including social skill of building relationship with other people. The job of trainer is not merely battling and participate in league(s), but before one could even participate in the battle, one should take care of one's Pokemon and be able to survive in the wild while one travel between cities and towns, and also be able to learn from other people. When all of these other skills are bad, what makes you a good trainer even the major battling skill is super outstanding? (Well, IMO Ash's battling skill is not anything outstanding either)
Other than his trainer skill level, I personally had much more problem with his characteristic and personality, the reactions he received from the surrounding, and his very own existence within the show. His over-confidence adding on his inexperience leading to his battling failure for so many times, where his creativity doesn't help the outcome either. I don't mind him losing, but I hope he could put down his attitude a bit more in front of experienced trainer, and show more of self-restraint. Since he doesn't have any special ability nor achieved something marvelous that is worthy enough to earn respect from others, where does he have the guts to be proud and arrogant? Therefore I don't see him as any strong trainer, even he does able to put up creative strategies for many times, because his characteristic and personality is just the crucial defect he had as being a trainer, which will doomed him for eternal failure.
Although he improved much better in his characteristic and personality in XY saga, but then seeing his sudden change from a BW naive idiot to XY mentally mature trainer with self-control, I just doubt is this still the Ash Ketchum we knew from all these years? I would have favour the show a lot more if the show uses a complete new protagonist.
Imo he's only a powerful trainer when he needs to be. There's just not much consistency to his growth which makes any semblance of progress pointless eventually imo.
DelphoxTrainer6000
Fairy Wings
Uh no, sorry but this is crap. Your point doesn't stand at all. Mine does. You made this entire part up; good job. There is no proof whatsoever that less than a year has passed in the anime timeline. Admittedly the characters don't age, but this doesn't mean time has hardly passed. Please.
Actually the question is both.
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ShadowForce720
Well-Known Member
I highly doubt that when people say that oh they would like it more if the show had a new protagonist but look how people reacted to Alain when he was first introduce people had no problem with him but by the time of the second mega evolution special people started bashing him and calling him bland. I have no reason to think people wouldn't do the exact same thing with other new protagonist. People will be okay with them at first but then within the next few episodes they will start bashing the new protagonist and call the new protagonist bland.
Lord Trollbias
Y'all Salty Bishes
Considering the fact that BW001 confirms he's still 10, yes less than 1 year has passed. You're time argument makes no sense and has already been disproved by canon. Nobody said time hasn't passed. In the anime-verse less than 1 year has passed not 15 years like has been erroneously stated.
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There is no logic for the time in the show at all because there have been single episodes a few times where weeks have passed like the caterpie one in Da. We know months passed by also for a few of the leagues. Clearly a looot more than just one year has gone by, but at the same time they never age and never will.
Bill Cipher
__
Simply put, he's inconsistent. In battle he's good when he needs to be and not-so-good when he needs to be. I'm not sure about him as a character. He cares deeply about his Pokemon's feelings which is nice. It means he isn't one of those generic emotionless trainers who only think about strength. However he was really arrogant towards Misty and others in the first season, which is something I personally didn't like. It's understandable that his attitude towards his humans friends could get annoying.
Close but not quite. Actually I think all of you are getting the question wrong. The OP is asking about the first season, which is the season he and his girlfriend are watching. The question is whether Ash is bad, either as a character or a trainer, in Kanto.
I'm not saying I disagree with you (I actually prefer your side of the argument) but I think both of you are just trying to push fan-interpreted theories.
I think that he/she was trying to say that this doesn't prove that less than 1 year has passed. There are plenty of other shows where time is confirmed by canon to pass on a realistic basis and yet the characters' ages don't change.
You can't really use Ash's age to support your argument either because he will quite simply always be ten, so by your logic it will always have been less than a year since he became a trainer in the anime timeline. Both your arguments and the other guys arguments about time in the anime are just fan-made interpretations, and always will be, so I'm just saying there's no need for either of you to be aggressive about them.
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Here's another random theory that involves something proven by canon: In Best Wishes it was proven that three months had passed in the span of 18 episodes (in between when Ash registered for the league and when it actually began) - and there's no way anyone with basic math skills would believe the other 850 episodes will total less than nine months. More like 11.8 years, since judging by what we saw in BW, 18 episodes = approximately 90 days. 90 ÷ 18 = 5 which implies that about 5 times as many days have passed in the anime as there are episodes. (5 x 868) ÷ 365 is about 11.8. Not quite 15 but close. (I don't agree with this either; I'm just giving an example of a theory that is based on canon. My opinion is that time is so screwed up in the show that there isn't a 100% proven answer. The anime contradicts itself too much for there to be one).
Close but not quite. Actually I think all of you are getting the question wrong. The OP is asking about the first season, which is the season he and his girlfriend are watching. The question is whether Ash is bad, either as a character or a trainer, in Kanto.
I'm not saying I disagree with you (I actually prefer your side of the argument) but I think both of you are just trying to push fan-interpreted theories.
I think that he/she was trying to say that this doesn't prove that less than 1 year has passed. There are plenty of other shows where time is confirmed by canon to pass on a realistic basis and yet the characters' ages don't change.
You can't really use Ash's age to support your argument either because he will quite simply always be ten, so by your logic it will always have been less than a year since he became a trainer in the anime timeline. Both your arguments and the other guys arguments about time in the anime are just fan-made interpretations, and always will be, so I'm just saying there's no need for either of you to be aggressive about them.
---
Here's another random theory that involves something proven by canon: In Best Wishes it was proven that three months had passed in the span of 18 episodes (in between when Ash registered for the league and when it actually began) - and there's no way anyone with basic math skills would believe the other 850 episodes will total less than nine months. More like 11.8 years, since judging by what we saw in BW, 18 episodes = approximately 90 days. 90 ÷ 18 = 5 which implies that about 5 times as many days have passed in the anime as there are episodes. (5 x 868) ÷ 365 is about 11.8. Not quite 15 but close. (I don't agree with this either; I'm just giving an example of a theory that is based on canon. My opinion is that time is so screwed up in the show that there isn't a 100% proven answer. The anime contradicts itself too much for there to be one).
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