• Hi all. We have had reports of member's signatures being edited to include malicious content. You can rest assured this wasn't done by staff and we can find no indication that the forums themselves have been compromised.

    However, remember to keep your passwords secure. If you use similar logins on multiple sites, people and even bots may be able to access your account.

    We always recommend using unique passwords and enable two-factor authentication if possible. Make sure you are secure.
  • Be sure to join the discussion on our discord at: Discord.gg/serebii
  • If you're still waiting for the e-mail, be sure to check your junk/spam e-mail folders

Is Ash really that bad??

Status
Not open for further replies.

Platinum fan.

RetiredPokemonMaster
That depends on what you mean. As a character or as a trainer. As a trainer, I'll give him credit. He's done a lot and accomplished a lot. He's not bad as a trainer. He's inconsistent more then being good or bad. But I'd say he's pretty alright as a trainer for this anime, above average. Some of his AG battles are still among my fave of the series. AG Ash was the best Ash. I wish they retired the character after Hoenn. That was the perfect time to.

If you mean character, he's horribly bland today. To be fair I think every character that lasted longer then they should have (TR, Brock) also hit that point where I just didn't want to see them anymore and wanted something new, and it doesn't help that since DP and onwards I found the new characters all more interesting then the OS ones. AG was balanced between old and new, but from DP onwards the new characters carried the show for me and Ash suffered from repetitiveness. I said this in the DP Brock thread and I'll say it here. I don't hate Ash. Many think I do, but I don't. I'm just not invested in his character or his quest anymore. And it doesn't help that his sidekicks have been more interesting then him for years now, at least from my perspective.
 
Last edited:

Cloud5001

Well-Known Member
Ok let me hit a few points that I've seen people come up with. Firstly Ash does'nt force his pokemon to evolve if they do it's cause they want to, that does'nt make him a bad trainer it makes him a compassionate one that puts his pokemon first and you know what that's exactly the attitude I'd have as well. If pokemon were real I would not force them to evolve for my own sake but because they want too. Plenty of his pokemon have evolved throughout the show to balance out the ones that don't want to so really him not evolving his pokemon is just an inaccurate statement.

Now Ash's charachter, I swear I wonder if people here are watching the same show as me cause Ash has plenty of personaility his good points being his determination, creativity, passion, his protective nature towards his pokemon, and friendly attitude with his bad points being his arrogance, tendency to forget important facts, a stubborn attitude and a bit of a temper, also his laziness. As a charachter Ash is a pretty good one with plenty of faults to balance out his good points and is not a MARY SUE dear god I don't know how someone came up with that. The definition of a mary sue is a character who's perfect and has no faults. We've seen plenty of times Ash's bad habits.

Ash leaving his pokemon at Oak's lab, while I can't say what the main reason is it does give us a chance to see new pokemon to Ash's team. He never forgets about his pokemon, if that were the case his pokemon would'nt nearly be as happy to see him every time he comes home or he brings them to his current team. Honestly the fact that he placed in the top 8 in Hoenn with five new pokemon and his main one really should say what a good trainer he is and that even without his old pokemon he can train some damn strong pokemon.

While he does'nt bring up his friends all the time he does still care about them. He still has Misty's lure, He learned basic survival skills from Brock and yes he does use them when the resident cook isn't there. he still has his half of the ribbion that he got in the contest he was in with May, he inherited Dawn's catchphrase which he does say sometimes. He thought of each and every one of his friends at the end of the Black and White saga. I'm still hoping will get some kind of movie or something where all the main charachters come together.

The last thing I'd like the cover is that even if the gym formula is always recycled the gym battles themselves are all always diffrent, the time it takes for Ash to gather the badges also varies, and then you have the current regions team organization which is never the same as the old ones. Also if they finish with the leauge episodes early they often create filler arcs which excluding Battle Frontier either shakes up the gym formula or just goes with a brand new story. He did'nt have a permanent rival for awhile after Gary left and it showed when he encounters Paul, aside from Tyson he never really had a rival who was constantly pushing him to his limits in hoenn and that's why I believe it took him the longest to beat Brandon. Tripp was a crappy character and as a result never really felt like someone who could challenge Ash, which would explain Ash's mediocre performance in Unova, and yes I am fully aware of the reset in Unova but I chose to ignore it and look at it my own way otherwise I'd get a massive headache. Anyways all in all Ash is a good trainer and a very likeable charachter who does'nt deserve the hate he gets. However I will say an interesting thing they can do is introduce a new trainer who can do the gym stuff while Ash becomes a mentor figure to the new protagnist, this way they don't have to get rid of Ash or Pikachu and can have a brand new trainer to shake things up a bit.
 

Crystal

The Pokemon Observer
Of course he is a Mary Sue, because the true definition of Mary Sue is not simply just a perfect flawless character. In a more correct definition, Mary Sue is a character that constantly breaks the rules of story-writing and focus balance of characters, such that the resulting character is always going over the top to the level of distorting the basic physics and fabrics of the story itself.

Being a self-insert of the author, or being absolutely perfect and powerful like no one else, or having countless abilities/skills/achievements before the start of story, or having the most beautiful/handsome appearance in the entire universe (according to story context), or having many boyfriends/girlfriends and still getting along with the new ones finely, etc. These are all common traits found in those characters accused to be Mary Sue, but nonetheless, these are in fact not requisites to be one. In order for a character to be deemed as Mary Sue, one should look at the interactions, relationship, and influence of the concerned character between other characters, the world itself, and most importantly the story plot. Also as an alternative Mary Sue index (according to my personal scaling), the amount of focus and attitude of the author towards the concerned character may also be accounted for the Mary Sue accusation.

To say it alternatively in the bluntest manner yet easiest to understand, is the author using characters as a tool to tell a dramatic story, or using a dramatic story plot as a tool to present a character? If it is the latter, then the concerned character will very probably be accused to be Mary Sue. Because the problem is, story plot became secondary, hence unimportant, thus author (or in anime's case, the scriptwriters) will tend to screw every other things without much reluctance and hesitation.
In order to suits the need of bringing the concerned character into focus, author will change the plot flow, all the important events will not happen until the concerned character is presented, the villains will not do their evil deeds if the concerned character is not here, the meteor that will destroy earth will just halt right above stratosphere if the concerned character is not here, the one-in-a-zillion super-great-ultra rare event will occur only if the concerned character is here. Then in order for the concerned character to be focused, all other characters are not to be focused, or used as a tool to contribute into the focus of the concerned character, thus the concerned character will be loved by others without reasons (or come up with some very cheap reasons) even he/she is a jerk with loathsome personalities and didn't do anything special to draw attention from others, all the others even the ones with professional occupations will have their IQ lowered, all the others will change their usual behaviors and minds when the concerned character is around, even wild Pokemon supposed to afraid of or attack approaching human will suddenly become more docile than a domesticated pet just because the concerned character is around, and of course all the sidekicks are then just downgraded to be supporting characters or at worst henchmen. And then in order for the concerned character to be the absolute focus of the show, he/she will then be the only one allowed to accomplish something important, he/she is the only one to save the world and save the day, despite that he/she have reliable and powerful friends, they will not move at that critical moment, but only to sit back waiting for the concerned character to be return like a hero to be praise, or offer help but "sacrificed" at the very early stage.

Please note, having over-the-top background settings such as being a super genius of Alakazam IQ, or superpower equivalent to Saiyan despite being a normal earthling, having countless achievements, being a multi-skilled all-round worker, having complicated/tragic/affluent background like no one else, being a half-breed or mixed-breed or even a non-earthling or non-terrestrial being, or having abnormal coloured hair or eyes or skin colour, etc. Surely these traits are rather eye-catchy, so by the very first glance reader/audience will focus on characters with such traits. But still just like I claimed, that is not requisite to be accused as Mary Sue. The most critical point is, are these background settings and traits form part of the overall story? Will these things attribute to future story building? Will these things attribute to actions/reactions, behaviour and mindset of the concerned character? If the answer is all "No", where author just add these traits to the concerned character for the sake of so-called coolness, or maybe author just add in such abnormal traits right in the middle of story for some once-off events but originally didn't included in the usual character design, then such character will be very likely be accused to be Mary Sue.
 

_Dog

Well-Known Member
I'm surprised no one has posted a rebuttal on Crystal's arguments. I would've looked forward to seeing an interesting debate, but alas. In any regards, I have seen nothing but conflicting sources on what constitutes a so-called "Mary Sue", so the term means just about nothing to me.

Oh, and to Crystal: you're not really a fan of the Pokemon show, are you? I wonder, what makes you watch it? It'd be nice to let me know.
 

Lord Trollbias

Y'all Salty Bishes
I'm surprised no one has posted a rebuttal on Crystal's arguments. I would've looked forward to seeing an interesting debate, but alas. In any regards, I have seen nothing but conflicting sources on what constitutes a so-called "Mary Sue", so the term means just about nothing to me.

Oh, and to Crystal: you're not really a fan of the Pokemon show, are you? I wonder, what makes you watch it? It'd be nice to let me know.
Because (s)he'd just end up ignoring it and most people are tired of his/her sad, tired argument so why bother?
 

Lorde

Let's go to the beach, each.
To be fair I think every character that lasted longer then they should have (TR, Brock) also hit that point where I just didn't want to see them anymore and wanted something new, and it doesn't help that since DP and onwards I found the new characters all more interesting then the OS ones.

This. Ash is probably only stale to us older fans 'cause he's been around so long. Newer characters can get away with a lot more though.
 

Morty05

Ghost-type trainer
I for one don't like how WRITERS treat Ash rather then Ash personally. WHY THE MOTHER F!@#! DO YOU KEEP USING HIM AS A CHARACTER! IT IS GETTING OLD AFTER 10+ YEARS OF SAME THING OVER AND OVER AGAIN WITHOUT ANY CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT! SO WHAT IF ASH DID INCREADABLE THING IN ONE REGION! WRITERS ARE GANNA BRING OUT BIG ALMIGHTY RESET BUTTON AND MAKE HIM NOOB AGAIN AT NEXT REGION/GEN! HE WILL NEVER GROW! HE WILL NEVER AGE! HECK WE NEVER EVEN KNOW WHO ASH'S FATHER IS!

That is why Ash sucks. So many years and development worth of snail-crawling... Unlike other long-running anime like One-piece, Naruto, Fairy Tail ect, He has no character development! Ash now is same person as Ash in Kanto in beginning of Pokemon... and that is NOT good.
 

Lord Trollbias

Y'all Salty Bishes
I for one don't like how WRITERS treat Ash rather then Ash personally. WHY THE MOTHER F!@#! DO YOU KEEP USING HIM AS A CHARACTER! IT IS GETTING OLD AFTER 10+ YEARS OF SAME THING OVER AND OVER AGAIN WITHOUT ANY CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT! SO WHAT IF ASH DID INCREADABLE THING IN ONE REGION! WRITERS ARE GANNA BRING OUT BIG ALMIGHTY RESET BUTTON AND MAKE HIM NOOB AGAIN AT NEXT REGION/GEN! HE WILL NEVER GROW! HE WILL NEVER AGE! HECK WE NEVER EVEN KNOW WHO ASH'S FATHER IS!

That is why Ash sucks. So many years and development worth of snail-crawling... Unlike other long-running anime like One-piece, Naruto, Fairy Tail ect, He has no character development! Ash now is same person as Ash in Kanto in beginning of Pokemon... and that is NOT good.
No he's not. He's definitely NOT the same as he was in Kanto, skill wise or personality wise.
 

Lorde

Let's go to the beach, each.
Ash now is same person as Ash in Kanto in beginning of Pokemon... and that is NOT good.

He's actually changed a bit, but for the worst in my opinion. In OS he had tons of personality and could be charming, whereas now he only has like one character trait. :x
 

Morty05

Ghost-type trainer
No he's not. He's definitely NOT the same as he was in Kanto, skill wise or personality wise.

Can you please tell me how Ash has improved like say Luffy D. Monkey did or Naruto did? What about Natsu? Did Ash underwent personality slimier to those?
 

Lorde

Let's go to the beach, each.
Can you please tell me how Ash has improved like say Luffy D. Monkey did or Naruto did? What about Natsu? Did Ash underwent personality slimier to those?

To be fair, we can't accurately compare Ash to those characters though since this anime barely has development or much plot progression to begin with.
 

Morty05

Ghost-type trainer
To be fair, we can't accurately compare Ash to those characters though since this anime barely has development or much plot progression to begin with.

and why Pokemon anime can't have these things? It isn't like it is new anime with only 30 something episodes, it is almost long as One piece and Fairy tail. Why can't Pokemon have development and plot progression. That is what I meant by big almighty Reset button. Ash has finished X region and now he is going to go to region Y. What shall he do? Would he add experiences to his character development and make Ash mature? No! Of cause not! Why would we risk making Ash interesting character! We will push our secret weapon- Almighty reset button and wipe out all that experience from him and pikachu and make them a whimmpy character who has to face grade 1 gym leaders again and fail again! Interesting, Bah we need no interesting here!
 

Soniman

Break the Limit
and why pokemon anime can't have these things? It isn't like it is new anime with only 30 something episodes, it is almost long as one piece and fairy tail. Why can't pokemon have development and plot progression. That is what i meant by big almighty reset button. Ash has finished x region and now he is going to go to region y. What shall he do? Would he add experiences to his character development and make ash mature? No! Of cause not! Why would we risk making ash interesting character! We will push our secret weapon- almighty reset button and wipe out all that experience from him and pikachu and make them a whimmpy character who has to face grade 1 gym leaders again and fail again! Interesting, bah we need no interesting here!

this. Has. Only. Happened. One. Time. In. The. Entire. Anime. Why. Have. People. Not. Realized. This?
 

thor94

Well-Known Member
conan edogawa never aged too after dozens years, but his skill and personality improved.
ash is just the worst main character ever created in japan for a long duration show (maybe a show at all).
digimon, bakugan, yugioh, etc. all other similar show have main character improving and reach their dreams.
 

CMDShift4

Anonymous
conan edogawa never aged too after dozens years, but his skill and personality improved.

Case Closed and Pokemon never belong in the same category. Wrong analogy. Very different setting.

digimon, bakugan, yugioh, etc. all other similar show have main character improving and reach their dreams.

While that's true and all. The only similarity those series have to the pokemon anime is that all of them was given broadcast to advertise their toys, accessories, and games. Those you mentioned were fixed to get the main character's story to be resolved. On the other hand, the pokemon anime's main priority is to simply advertise rather than giving the story of its main character a permanent conclusion and resolve. I would also note that the series you mentioned belongs to the little bit older demographic. Those are considered shounen, the pokemon anime is kodomo.

Personally, I still think Satoshi is far from being a bad trainer. Sure BW damaged him somehow in terms of battling and downgraded his knowledge and actions a bit but Satoshi at his prime (whether that "prime" be it in AG, DP, or XY) is a respectable trainer. He has a respectable standing that is acknowledged by the leagues he participated in and can be sure cunning most of the time when needed. Sure he hasn't put himself to the top of a league but I guess I simply realize that it is not his fault since the writers themselves doesn't want him to win. Anyone can disagree with my opinion on this, I don't mind and I'll just simply read. It just felt silly how others tend to crucify him as if he's the worst character on all fiction when I think he probably deserves a humble recognition to say the least since the writers themselves are the one who actually block his progress.
 
Last edited:

Alexander18

Dragon Pokemon fan
Ash did finish in the top 4 of the sinnoh league but then again, Unova league was bad as he finished at top 8. But I thinks he improved since Kanto to say at least.
 

Morty05

Ghost-type trainer
Case Closed and Pokemon never belong in the same category. Wrong analogy. Very different setting.



While that's true and all. The only similarity those series have to the pokemon anime is that all of them was given broadcast to advertise their toys, accessories, and games. Those you mentioned were fixed to get the main character's story to be resolved. On the other hand, the pokemon anime's main priority is to simply advertise rather than giving the story of its main character a permanent conclusion and resolve. I would also note that the series you mentioned belongs to the little bit older demographic. Those are considered shounen, the pokemon anime is kodomo.

Personally, I still think Satoshi is far from being a bad trainer. Sure BW damaged him somehow in terms of battling and downgraded his knowledge and actions a bit but Satoshi at his prime (whether that "prime" be it in AG, DP, or XY) is a respectable trainer. He has a respectable standing that is acknowledged by the leagues he participated in and can be sure cunning most of the time when needed. Sure he hasn't put himself to the top of a league but I guess I simply realize that it is not his fault since the writers themselves doesn't want him to win. Anyone can disagree with my opinion on this, I don't mind and I'll just simply read. It just felt silly how others tend to crucify him as if he's the worst character on all fiction when I think he probably deserves a humble recognition to say the least since the writers themselves are the one who actually block his progress.

So pokemon is allowed to have no progression simply because it is different?
Just oh Wow... just wow...
That is why I have Zero hopes for pokemon anime. People will accept any crap Writers produce and Writers don't bother try hard since its people will accept any crap they throw at them.
 

CMDShift4

Anonymous
So pokemon is allowed to have no progression simply because it is different?

I only said that the pokemon anime series is in different category than Case Closed. Thor94 gave it as an example of what he thought that the anime should be taking notes from. NEVER did I mention that the anime doesn't deserve its stories and characters to progress. From what I've seen so far, the anime does progress. Its just that it progresses slowly and it progresses in a limited way. Limited due to the fact that the anime staff has no plans (as far as I know) on when the anime will actually end. The anime is a machine for advertisement in which I also referred to my post before as facts. The facts that I posted about the true state of the anime like how it belonged to a different genre that most people mistake it for are simply trivial. Animes that belongs to the kodomo category usually uses simple plots>>>(Source). At least the pokemon anime incorporates shounen and shoujo elements to the show.

Like everyone else, I also do have my own humble wishes and ideas on how to improve the show. Yet somehow, knowing those facts makes you understand as to why the anime behaves such way and maybe that is why I'm not really one of the guys who are really vocal about this, but like I said I don't really mind some changes. Maybe I just don't concern myself that much into this show like others do or I am currently enjoying XY for the way it is. Although, reading some of your expectations and criticism to the show can either be good and convincing, or it can be also silly and exaggerating.

Also telling others that this thing - "is crap!" is subjective. What you treat as garbage may not be a good treasure to some and vice versa. I won't be jumping unto your bandwagon but feel free to disagree on me.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top