Is fanservice so much important?

[AshxSatoshi]

I think a few of you are looking too deeply in this skin tone and race discussion. My only comment is with Iris, I never heard anyone hating her based on her looks. Actually, in the very early days of BW, there were fanart of her hair resembling a palm tree. I'm also pretty offended by how people who are conveniently triggered and wanting to be offended for others based on their race are the first ones to point out the stereotypes and horrible things to associate that race with just to prove their point when really, it's committing the opposite effect. Please stop.

Iris is shown as a fearless tomboy meaning she doesn't mind getting hands on and dirty or putting out punches when it comes to a fight. She swings on vines as it's an easier and more engaging way of transportation. Ash and Dawn joined in on vine swinging (and it's the same derogatory slur.) She's shown no different as a wild child than Sapphire from the comics was shown as. Misty gets less hate because she's the original Pokegirl but I have heard some people disliking her earlier treatment of Ash by always hitting him and calling him an idiot. Iris is disliked, because her English dub voice made her sound really obnoxious, people interpreted her teasing as a superiority complex or snotty, she got an undeserved fully evolved pseudo legendary Pokemon, she had subjectively bad development or underutilized development, and she's apparently Misty 2.0.

Okay your I agree with 99% percent of your posts on here but I disagree with your reasons for the hate. I don’t see how a Pokémon can be “undeserved”. If one would like to find the closetest thing to an “underserved” Pokémon however; look no further than Dawn getting Togekiss JUST so she had a 6th Pokémon to compete in the GF. I don’t know if those are your personal reasons why you disliked Iris but I find that a double standard.

It might also stem from the fact that the OS was at least indiscriminate in who it picked on. Sure Misty was a jerk sometimes, but she could as often end up the butt monkey unfairly at times, put in bad situations or being the butt of jokes, often because of Ash, which made her frustration and abrasiveness more founded.

Iris was more just gleefully egotistical, not that she didn't get butt monkey moments, but most of them came off more as punishment for acting up in the first place. She did have the same inferiority superiority complex as Misty however.

It might also be another bit of fanservice; the distress type. Misty often fell victim to slapstick, got tied up or otherwise put in compromising situations, some find that appealing. Iris wasn't a damsel in distress nearly as often (even if she was depicted as a rather fallible trainer). Look how many go doe eyed whenever Ash rescues Lillie from danger or comforts her or has her cowering behind him, especially since her character is much more ingenue than either of them. It's a guilty pleasure to give the protagonist a vulnerable little damsel to protect, as absolutely degrading as it is for gender treatment.

Eh, I find it rather weird how people ENJOY seeing the male hero saving the poor defenseless girl. I hope Lillie is breaking the trope but another story for another day. I also disagree that Iris didn’t fall victim to slapstick or teasing (look no further than Georgia or Burgendy). Anyway are you implying that the weaker the female, the more she’s liked? I’m not asking in a sarcastic tone just genuinely curious

 

[Pokegirl Fan~]

Okay your I agree with 99% percent of your posts on here but I disagree with your reasons for the hate. I don’t see how a Pokémon can be “undeserved”. If one would like to find the closetest thing to an “underserved” Pokémon however; look no further than Dawn getting Togekiss JUST so she had a 6th Pokémon to compete in the GF. I don’t know if those are your personal reasons why you disliked Iris but I find that a double standard.

I don't think that she meant it as her personal feelings of Iris; I think she was talking about the reasons why the fanbase disliked Iris in general.

 

[AshxSatoshi]

I don't think that she meant it as her personal feelings of Iris; I think she was talking about the reasons why the fanbase disliked Iris in general.

This whole time she was a he.... but oh okay thanks for clearing that up xD

 

[DatsRight]

Eh, I find it rather weird how people ENJOY seeing the male hero saving the poor defenseless girl. I hope Lillie is breaking the trope but another story for another day. I also disagree that Iris didn’t fall victim to slapstick or teasing (look no further than Georgia or Burgendy). Anyway are you implying that the weaker the female, the more she’s liked? I’m not asking in a sarcastic tone just genuinely curious

As said, it's a guilty pleasure, as in most know logically character development and equality should come into play, but still get fuzzy feelings whenever the hero gets to protect the cute girl and keep her safe. Lillie after all is the 'woobie', the sweet tortured character the audience wants to hug all better. I suspect at least a little of May's appeal came from this too, since she was the first to play as a younger more novice trainer and thus bring out Ash's protective side a lot (notice how often she got in danger, even in later episodes when she became more competent, eg. the Temple of the Sea film).

Take Cardcaptor Sakura for example. Despite the cute girl being the actual main hero, and a reasonably competent one, it's heartwarming factor to many comes from how endearing and innocent she is and brings out everyone's protective side towards her.

It can happen gender reversed in shows as well. It's the 'awww' factor really. A fetish for having your heart melted into a puddle.

Of course there is that particular category of fans that take to that sort of kink like girls getting tied up and what not (thus we get shows like Totally Spies).

 

[satopi]

Okay your I agree with 99% percent of your posts on here but I disagree with your reasons for the hate. I don’t see how a Pokémon can be “undeserved”. If one would like to find the closetest thing to an “underserved” Pokémon however; look no further than Dawn getting Togekiss JUST so she had a 6th Pokémon to compete in the GF. I don’t know if those are your personal reasons why you disliked Iris but I find that a double standard.

No these aren't my personal reasons for disliking Iris, a character who I really like (and I disagree with the popular reasons on why she's disliked like calling her Misty 2.0 and her being a bully. I'm apathetic on the Dragonite backlash.) I'm stating what I heard from users who don't like her.

 

[Moonlight Starlight]

No these aren't my personal reasons for disliking Iris, a character who I really like (and I disagree with the popular reasons on why she's disliked like calling her Misty 2.0 and her being a bully. I'm apathetic on the Dragonite backlash.) I'm stating what I heard from users who don't like her.

I still love Iris and the other girls also including Marina the missing link character as will too.I love all girls equalty even.I I'm just getting tired of how Iris gets so much hate.If. it's the phrase words I blame the hate on the writer who add it in the first place.If the writer never add it in the first place Iris would never got soo much hate.I love her she brings different taste from the others girls how the creators made her for a good reasoning and chosen to be also Ash's companion also too.She is full of mystery has more backstory about her past ,her life and family too. Those are the things I like about her.

 

[shoz999]

Depends on the type of fanservice, is there actual character progression like how Pokemon Adventures handles fanservice, showing how much characters and there Pokemon have grown up with experience and knowledge? Or is it just the characters returning for the sake of appealing to the fanbase like the Pokemon Anime, almost 100%, if not always, of the time. This I believe is a very important subject to ask about when talking about the importance of fanservice, character progression.

 

[satopi]

I still love Iris and the other girls also including Marina the missing link character as will too.I love all girls equalty even.I I'm just getting tired of how Iris gets so much hate.If. it's the phrase words I blame the hate on the writer who add it in the first place.If the writer never add it in the first place Iris would never got soo much hate.I love her she brings different taste from the others girls how the creators made her for a good reasoning and chosen to be also Ash's companion also too.She is full of mystery has more backstory about her past ,her life and family too. Those are the things I like about her.

She definitely should've gotten more development and focus episodes. If only Dawn rubbed some of that costar influence on her as their friendship were one of the best things in season 2.

 

[AdvancedGenGenesect]

It could be quite possible that this is the case with her. Misty is technically the same type of character as Iris, but even worst. But people could tolerate Misty more, because she is the more fanservice driven one in terms of looks, design and clothing. I even experienced this myself. I'm half black and I got called out for the simplest things by students and teachers. When I mad a bit of a dry, sarcastic comment, people got very angry with me, but if a white person insulted someone write into their faces, the teacher and students never said a word.

I kinda think with Iris it is a same case. I think with all dark skinned or chubby persons in the anime. They have to a bit more careful.

Now this is pure madness. People don't seem to get the point of the writers adding misty which was to cope with ashs character itself. You see ash being a rookie needed someone else in the crew who was more logical, more mature and a person that would kind of point out ashs silliness. As time went on ash became a more mature character and a more experienced one at that. So an Iris character coming so late after ashs character was ok, it was going to not settle well with some fans and her main thing of "Your a kid" was ironic itself, but it's not going to make me laugh anytime soon. Her portrayal was also not good making her look pretty bad which was the writers fault.
It's just dumb that people call her and Iris the same when misty played much more of an important role and was more enjoyable of a character overall.

 

[AshxSatoshi]

It's just dumb that people call her and Iris the same when misty played much more of an important role

WHAT

 

[AdvancedGenGenesect]

WHAT

What are you confused about? I explained that misty (and kinda brock) helped shaped ashs character when he was a rookie. Many people say that they are very similiar characters when in fact they really aren't.

 

[Slapstick-Olivia]

Technically they are. Kinda... both had a similar goal, both were gym leaders in the games, both had their main Pokémon always outside of the Pokéball, both of them were the female leads used for the most comedic slapstick (sure Dawn to, but at this time those two were) and both of them had the most arguments with Ash. I kinda see why people always compare those two with each other. Their are similar in their role. The only real big difference between those two are their core personalities. Iris is a tomboy, while Misty was back than kinda of a.... how should I call her... she was more a dominated alpha woman.

 

[DatsRight]

I think it's also the fact that Misty was WAY more vindictive about it. Sure Iris was pompous and teased Ash, but at least in a sort of playful way. Misty wouldn't let anything slide with Ash, even stuff that wasn't his fault or she was equally guilty of. It was in fact stated by the creative team that she was supposed to be much more inept than she perceived herself as. Sure her worst hypocritical moments did receive some punishment as well, but I wouldn't call Misty a more mature counterpart per se. She was like the girl at school who liked a boy but could only express it through insults and spitballs.

As mentioned I think this came a bit down to the versions of Ash they were placed with. Sure Misty could be a bit excessively mean to Ash, but he could dish back the vitriol in spades and was smart enough to know when she was full of bullcrap, while Ash was more gentle in BW, he didn't have the same dry wit and rarely insulted Iris first. As mentioned the comparison is shown in SM, where Misty was maybe a bit too overeager to take Ash down a notch, when for the large part he was just enthusiastic over arrogant. Plus SM Ash had that whole 'clown who vindicates himself' shtick ongoing, anyone who tends to perceive him as just a dimwit gets swiftly proven wrong (which I could argue is a bit of fan service itself given how his character is perceived by the fanbase).

I think this is why the anime's slowly done away with more abrasive girls, because Ash's character doesn't connect as well with them now, he's a sweet dorky onii chan. Sure SM brought back a bit of playful teasing, but everything's much more laid back. Since Ash is already a bit of a designated monkey, I think a standoffish girl who liked rubbing it in his face would quickly become hateable.

One has to remember that in early episodes and Shudo's notes, Kanto was implied to be a crapsack. People were pushed to make their living as a Pokemon trainer otherwise they were perceived as losers, thus nearly everyone gained an over defensive complex about their credentials and got pushy and apathetic to anyone who wasn't catching on quick enough or questioned their accomplishments (eg. Erika concerning her perfume business). Families were broken, people struggled to make ends meet and some Pokemon trainers were implied not to make it back alive. Thus Misty had the background to be a bitter little jerk. Compare to most later regions where the community and it's use of trainer occupations is mostly efficient and good natured (if sometimes eccentric) besides a few bad eggs.

 

[Slapstick-Olivia]

She was like the girl at school who liked a boy but could only express it through insults and spitballs.

So she is basically Helga from Hey! Arnold!

 

[DatsRight]

So she is basically Helga from Hey! Arnold!

Well maybe sans the creepy Ash shrine made out of his bubblegum. Maybe...

 

[mehmeh1]

Depends on the type of fanservice, is there actual character progression like how Pokemon Adventures handles fanservice, showing how much characters and there Pokemon have grown up with experience and knowledge? Or is it just the characters returning for the sake of appealing to the fanbase like the Pokemon Anime, almost 100%, if not always, of the time. This I believe is a very important subject to ask about when talking about the importance of fanservice, character progression.

and then there's

Spoiler

Red and Green (US)/Blue (Jp)'s appearance in the ORAS arc

 

[shoz999]

and then there's

Spoiler

Red and

Spoiler: spoiler

Green (US)/Blue (Jp)'s appearance in the ORAS arc

Spoiler

lol. Other than the Ruby and Sapphire gems, there really wasn't much character progression in that chapter. Actually I think Giovanni had more character progression than Red and Blue. Probably the only chapter so far with no real character progression in fanservice.

On the other hand though, a lot of shippers between Green (Adventure's counterpart to Gary Oak) and Diantha the Champion from the 6th gen arcs lol.

 

[LilligantLewis]

This is an odd statement to make, because it terms of eye-candy no Pokemon series can match Sun and Moon. It has the largest female cast to date (Lillie, Lana, Mallow, Acerola, Burnet, Wicke, Lusamine, Olivia...) and two guys who walk around shirtless at all times. The negative reception SM received from some sections of the fanbase had less to do with fanservice and more to do with the radical change in art style and premise for the story. If fanservice was the primary driving force behind a show's popularity, there would have been greater anticipation for this show and its wide variety of waifus.

Exactly! How can people say SM has less fanservice than XY! Grace never appeared in a bikini

it was pretty easy to root for Ash beating her.

For me, the reason was because he never did in the first place.

If one would like to find the closetest thing to an “underserved” Pokémon however; look no further than Dawn getting Togekiss JUST so she had a 6th Pokémon to compete in the GF.

I totally agree with you and I actually don't believe that people who think Dragonite was undeserved think Togekiss was fair. I think they're unrelated issues to most people. One thing that was a difference though is that people who think Dragonite was undeserved would have preferred if she got it as a Dratini during season 1, and slowly trained it up, rather than just being handed a Dragonite near the end of Unova. On the other hand, we understand that this couldn't have happened with Dawn's Togekiss since the writers definitely weren't going to give another girl Togepi/Togetic. Now, I do think Togekiss was undeserved for other reasons -- she could have just kept Ambipom and never even caught a Togekiss -- Togekiss's feature POTD episode could have been exactly what it was in that princess contest episode and that could have been it, but I don't really see this complaint as connected to the Iris Dragonite one. Another thing about the Iris Dragonite one is that up to that point, many fans had wanted for 15 years for Ash to catch and evolve a pseudo-legendary, so to see iris be handed one at its final stage, when Ash's closest thing was a totally unevolved Gible that only appeared in the final year of DP and was mostly a gag Pokémon, that didn't sit right with many fans. There was no such problem with Dawn's Togekiss as it was not a pseudo-legendary.

 

[AshxSatoshi]

Exactly! How can people say SM has less fanservice than XY! Grace never appeared in a bikini



For me, the reason was because he never did in the first place.



I totally agree with you and I actually don't believe that people who think Dragonite was undeserved think Togekiss was fair. I think they're unrelated issues to most people. One thing that was a difference though is that people who think Dragonite was undeserved would have preferred if she got it as a Dratini during season 1, and slowly trained it up, rather than just being handed a Dragonite near the end of Unova. On the other hand, we understand that this couldn't have happened with Dawn's Togekiss since the writers definitely weren't going to give another girl Togepi/Togetic. Now, I do think Togekiss was undeserved for other reasons -- she could have just kept Ambipom and never even caught a Togekiss -- Togekiss's feature POTD episode could have been exactly what it was in that princess contest episode and that could have been it, but I don't really see this complaint as connected to the Iris Dragonite one. Another thing about the Iris Dragonite one is that up to that point, many fans had wanted for 15 years for Ash to catch and evolve a pseudo-legendary, so to see iris be handed one at its final stage, when Ash's closest thing was a totally unevolved Gible that only appeared in the final year of DP and was mostly a gag Pokémon, that didn't sit right with many fans. There was no such problem with Dawn's Togekiss as it was not a pseudo-legendary.

All valid points. I however would like to point out that it was a good enough gap between Dawn’s 5th and 6th capture. In fact I believe she didn’t even get her 5th Ribbon by the time Cyndaquil was caught. I feel the writers waited until the very last minute and THEN had Dawn get a free fully evolved Pokémon (which didn’t have to be Togekiss). It wasn’t really a pacing issue just laziness. Also I can’t take the Ash thing serious. The reason being is that Ash and the other main characters are different people who will have different experiences. Why is it that every time a character receives something Ash is entitled to it or something better? Iris’ accomplishments have nothing to do with Ash and vice versa. It’s a childish mindset to me personally. You can be the main hero without getting everything the show has to offer entitled to you. If every character in Pokémon is suppose to be miniature compared to Ash and inferior, why even add different characters in the first place?

 

[LilligantLewis]

I feel the writers waited until the very last minute and THEN had Dawn get a free fully evolved Pokémon (which didn’t have to be Togekiss). It wasn’t really a pacing issue just laziness.

I actually am pretty sure they knew all along (or at least about a year in advance) Dawn was getting Togekiss because I think she's the reason Ambipom was cut in the first place.