Is Geninja still a top tier Ash Pokemon without it's evolution?

[BladexFade]

Can we agree that an ME capable trainer would utilize ME if pressured by an oppoenet's Pokémon regardless of whether that Pokémon is a mega or not, and of course as you claimed doing so doesn't automatically mean that the opponent's Pokémon is stronger than the base form of said Pokémon.

Sure, it depends who the actually trainer, Ace pokemon and different aspects of the battle holds. I can't agree that higher tiers would ME against non-mega Pokemon, unless we are referring to the ME noobs who would. That was my original claim from the beginning. Which is why I said Diantha point is kinda moot because she going to ME sooner or later.

In the end what's your stance concerning mastered AG and base Gardevoir? Would you atleast agree that Alain's MC X ~ E4 Mega where "~" means marginally stronger, equal or marginally weaker.

Like I said, Alain's Charizard can hang with the E4; Base or Mega form in my own opinion. But I don't agree that he can beat the rest in 1v1 until further shown.

EDIT: In the end I can't think of a reason why top tiers would function differently from anyone else. The Mega top tier battles (with E4s and Champions) we've witnessed are Alain vs Siebold, Alain vs Steven, Diantha vs Wikstrom, Alain vs Malva, Ash vs Diantha. I'm guessing your issue comes from the 3 battles involving Alain.

Actually, no, not really. From what's has been shown thus this far, I doubt the Champion(s) can beat the E4 Mega's without resorting to Mega (themselves)herself.

And I personally believe when the opponent ME denotes they are either serious or going all out.

EDIT: I don't know why some of my text was cut out

 

[XxlapsxX]

I see your point.That would be case unless, Brandon's other non-legendary (Dusclops or Solrock) can beat Zapdos or Articuno, we've seen non legendary beating legendaries.So, if we don't change their potential, Brandon's Solrock may beat Nolan's Zapdos( Charizard beat Articuno)If Tobias's full team is legendaries, I still don't see him passing first E4.

Yeah A-G would beat ML with an ease, but struggled against Avalugg and lost but he beat Abomasnow. Example when A-G hit Abomasnow(not Mega) with Cut it inflicted big damage and when he hit it with that big Shuriken, Abomasnow didn't faint. IMO, ML would faint from that Cut/big Shuriken.A-G took several hits from MA, while I don't see him taking hits from ML( maybe one direct hit).I see ML vs A-G taking 1-2 minutes, while MA vs A-G 5-6 minutes.

yeah well, i don't see we are going anywhere, however, saying that Brandom regular pokemon would beat Articuno is something i will never accept. As i said before, Charizard cant be used to measure this, since if he hadn't use (or Ash made it do that) seismic toss he would've definitely take Dusclops down, u are understimating too much Articuno and Charizard power, they should've been at the same level that any of Valente's Regis that time.

Regarding M Lucari... well how much would it last against G-A or if it would be more than M-Abomasnow did, is just assumption.

well, i still firmly believe that all Gym leaders have pretty much the same level/potential

 

[CMButch]

yeah well, i don't see we are going anywhere, however, saying that Brandom regular pokemon would beat Articuno is something i will never accept. As i said before, Charizard cant be used to measure this, since if he hadn't use (or Ash made it do that) seismic toss he would've definitely take Dusclops down, u are understimating too much Articuno and Charizard power, they should've been at the same level that any of Valente's Regis that time.

Regarding M Lucari... well how much would it last against G-A or if it would be more than M-Abomasnow did, is just assumption.

well, i still firmly believe that all Gym leaders have pretty much the same level/potential

I agree that this is off topic and going nowhere and I agree that Charizard should've beaten Dusclops. I wanted to see Charizard vs one of Regis. Dusclops vs Charizard was wasted match, TBH, I wanted to see Ash vs Charizard vs Alain's and Charizard vs Latios in Sinnoh. Instead, we get Charizard making appearance as fanservice after the league in BW.

 

[Genaller]

Sure, it depends who the actually trainer and different aspects of the battle. That was my original claim from the beginning. Which is why I said Diantha point is kinda moot because she going to ME sooner or later.


Like I said, Alain's Charizard can hang with the E4; Base or Mega form in my own opinion. But I don't agree that he can beat the rest in 1v1 until further shown.

Actually, no, not really. From what's has been shown thus this far, I doubt the Champion(s) can beat the E4 Mega's without resorting to Mega (themselves)herself.

And I personally believe when the opponent ME denotes they are either serious or going all out.

So MC X being on par with E4 (Ace/Mega) is good with you. Fair enough. So where do you actually rate AG? Wait I don't get your last bit. It would be obvious to a Champion that they'd need ME to beat an E4 ME. I thought the Alain matches bothered you because the E4s and Champions wouldn't know whether Alain warranted using ME.

 

[BladexFade]

Personally, Alain shouldn't have bested Ash. But that's another topic.

So MC X being on par with E4 (Ace/Mega) is good with you. Fair enough. So where do you actually rate AG? Wait I don't get your last bit. It would be obvious to a Champion that they'd need ME to beat an E4 ME. I thought the Alain matches bothered you because the E4s and Champions wouldn't know whether Alain warranted using ME.

Re-read my edit because some of my text disappeared when I initially posted. AG can hang with Mega E4 as I mention before in my other post. Whether he's bottom or mid-tier section is up to the consensus.

 

[XxlapsxX]

Well, back to the topic.

Right Now i have my top tier5 like this. ( Alphabetical order, this doesn't mean which one is stronger)

-Charizard
-Greninjash
-Infernape
-Pikachu
-Sceptile

But the 6th spot its a tough battle between Krokodile and Snorlax, honestly i think Snorlax is stronger, but anyways.

Now if we take the Synchro evolve out... then we should figure an hypothetical match between One of those 2 and Base Greninja. IMO greninja wouldn't been able to beat them... so i'm going with a simple NO... base greninja is not a top tier.

 

[BladexFade]

Like~wise XxlaspxX said.

Here's my order of the list:
Greninja/Charizard
Pikachu
Sceptile
Snorlax
Infernape (w/ Blaze it prolly surpassed Snorlax)
Bulbasaur

 

[Genaller]

Well, back to the topic.

Right Now i have my top tier5 like this. ( Alphabetical order, this doesn't mean which one is stronger)

-Charizard
-Greninjash
-Infernape
-Pikachu
-Sceptile

But the 6th spot its a tough battle between Krokodile and Snorlax, honestly i think Snorlax is stronger, but anyways.

Now if we take the Synchro evolve out... then we should figure an hypothetical match between One of those 2 and Base Greninja. IMO greninja wouldn't been able to beat them... so i'm going with a simple NO... base greninja is not a top tier.

Base Greninja can't take Snorlax, but it's probably better than Krookodile. I personally think Base Greninja = Base Infernape (they even have the same official W/L ratio). I'd put Krookodile as the strongest tier 2 (7th best non synchro Ash mon). I'd currently say AG is Ash's strongest though I think Peakachu with GigaVolt Havoc will be stronger and Charizard and Sceptile will also be stronger if they ever get ME.

EDIT: My top 10 ranking goes Ash-Greninja > Pieakachu = Charizard > Blaze Infernape' > Sceptile > Snorlax > Infernape = Greninja > Krookodile >= Swellow >= Bulbasaur >= Heracross With honorable mentions going to Glalie, Kingler, Gliscor and Hawlucha.

 

[nickdt]

Base Greninja can't take Snorlax, but it's probably better than Krookodile. I personally think Base Greninja = Base Infernape (they even have the same official W/L ratio). I'd put Krookodile as the strongest tier 2 (7th best non synchro Ash mon). I'd currently say AG is Ash's strongest though I think Peakachu with GigaVolt Havoc will be stronger and Charizard and Sceptile will also be stronger if they ever get ME.

EDIT: My top 10 ranking goes Ash-Greninja > Pieakachu = Charizard > Blaze Infernape' > Sceptile > Snorlax > Infernape = Greninja > Krookodile >= Swellow >= Bulbasaur >= Heracross With honorable mentions going to Glalie, Kingler, Gliscor and Hawlucha.

Win/loss ratio can only be a deciding factor if you take the amount of offical battles into account. If you do that, base Greninja doesn't even reach top 10, since it gets topped by Talonflame and Hawlucha in Kalos. Both have a lower amount of win/loss ratio in the short run, but if you take the amount of official battles into consideration, Talonflame is the strongest Kalos mon in the Long Run followed by Hawlucha. Base Greninja is 3.

I also don't count the wins of Ash-Greninja, since i put the form into another list, since including him in the first list isn't fair to the other Pokemon.

For example: Both Infernape and Krookodile have a higher win/loss ratio than both Pikachu and Charizard. But are they stronger... not they aren't, since Pikachu and Charizard fought in more official battles and thus its normal they end up with a lower amount of win/loss ratio.

Same goes for Glalie and Sceptile... to be honest. Win/loss ratio says Glalie is the strongest Hoenn Pokemon, cuz it has a higher win/loss ratio than Sceptile, but... Sceptile fought in more official battles and thus ends up with the lower amount of win/loss ratio.

 

[Navin]

Talonflame is the strongest Kalos mon in the Long Run followed by Hawlucha.

I'm still waiting to hear how this is remotely true.

 

[Genaller]

Win/loss ratio can only be a deciding factor if you take the amount of offical battles into account. If you do that, base Greninja doesn't even reach top 10, since it gets topped by Talonflame and Hawlucha in Kalos. Both have a lower amount of win/loss ratio in the short run, but if you take the amount of official battles into consideration, Talonflame is the strongest Kalos mon in the Long Run followed by Hawlucha. Base Greninja is 3.

I also don't count the wins of Ash-Greninja, since i put the form into another list, since including him in the first list isn't fair to the other Pokemon.

For example: Both Infernape and Krookodile have a higher win/loss ratio than both Pikachu and Charizard. But are they stronger... not they aren't, since Pikachu and Charizard fought in more official battles and thus its normal they end up with a lower amount of win/loss ratio.

Same goes for Glalie and Sceptile... to be honest. Win/loss ratio says Glalie is the strongest Hoenn Pokemon, cuz it has a higher win/loss ratio than Sceptile, but... Sceptile fought in more official battles and thus ends up with the lower amount of win/loss ratio.

Of course w/l ratio doesn't mean everything. Just an interesting fact. I also didn't use AG's battles for that comparison. I find Hawlucha's wins to be more impressive than somogonbird's so I rate it slightly higher. Talonflame is upper tier 3 and Hawlucha is either upper tier 3 or lower tier 2 (with the latter being my personal opinion). The ranking is just my interpretation of the tier list so it's subjective, but I'd say the tier list, first made by Mal, is mostly accurate with respect to where each Pokémon should be in relation to its peers.

 

[PAndrews]

Base Greninja can't take Snorlax, but it's probably better than Krookodile. I personally think Base Greninja = Base Infernape (they even have the same official W/L ratio). I'd put Krookodile as the strongest tier 2 (7th best non synchro Ash mon). I'd currently say AG is Ash's strongest though I think Peakachu with GigaVolt Havoc will be stronger and Charizard and Sceptile will also be stronger if they ever get ME.

EDIT: My top 10 ranking goes Ash-Greninja > Pieakachu = Charizard > Blaze Infernape' > Sceptile > Snorlax > Infernape = Greninja > Krookodile >= Swellow >= Bulbasaur >= Heracross With honorable mentions going to Glalie, Kingler, Gliscor and Hawlucha.

Base Greninja fought the champs Pokemon on equal ground before both transformed and fought MC-X (even taking a thunder punch) again before transforming. So Base Greninja has been shown capable of fighting both E4 level and Champ level opponents on equal ground

None of Ash's other Pokemon have come close to this feat. Infernape, Charizard, Groovyle and Pikachu all got demolished in every encounter with E4 or Champ opponents, it wasn't a close match but a slaughter. Look at Paul's entire team vs Cynthia too.

Even in Base form Greninja has been shown to be the strongest among Ash's pokemon and unless looking through nostalgia goggles its obvious. Its the only one shown capable of fighting E4 level and higher which prior to him was portrayed as some godlike level still far from Ash's reach.

 

[CMButch]

Base Greninja fought the champs Pokemon on equal ground before both transformed and fought MC-X (even taking a thunder punch) again before transforming. So Base Greninja has been shown capable of fighting both E4 level and Champ level opponents on equal ground

None of Ash's other Pokemon have come close to this feat. Infernape, Charizard, Groovyle and Pikachu all got demolished in every encounter with E4 or Champ opponents, it wasn't a close match but a slaughter. Look at Paul's entire team vs Cynthia too.

Even in Base form Greninja has been shown to be the strongest among Ash's pokemon and unless looking through nostalgia goggles its obvious. Its the only one shown capable of fighting E4 level and higher which prior to him was portrayed as some godlike level still far from Ash's reach.

I just watched Ash vs Diantha they didn't fight on equal ground before transforming. Gardevoir was just dodging/avoiding attack(toying with him) and get hit once( Cut) which didn't do much damage. Greninja took 1 Shadow Ball and indirect Moon Blast( it hit ground) and shockwave made Greninja flying to the tree. If Gardevoir hit Greninja one more time, it'd be wrap. Base Gardevoir>Base Greninja.

IIRC Pikachu vs Flint's Infernape was very long( 5 minutes) and Pikachu got hit a lot and he still battled( he lost, tho).
Wait according to your statement, Axew>>Paul's Torterra, since Axew survived more than Torterra. Axew got hit like 2-3 time and didn't faint.Torterra got OS, so Axew>Torterra? Nope. Obviously she went easy, like Diantha's Gardevoir went easy on base Greninja. When the transformed, they went serious.

It's not strongest in base. Charizard>Greninja. Sceptile>Greninja. If Greninja returns to Ash, once his all power from A-G is drained because of those evil root/vine energies, if/when he comes back he will be base Greninja forever. Charizard still remains the strongest and when Ash gets Charizardite, it's a wrap. Charizard(X/Y)>Sceptile(Mega)( he beat Darkrai, Mythical; who used Dream Eater to restore his energy) Pikachu ~ Greninja ~ Infernape(Blaze)>Snorlax. I bet in future Decidueye/Incineroar will take place somewhere here.

 

[nickdt]

I'm still waiting to hear how this is remotely true.

Well, what are the feats in official battles of Hawlucha and Greninja compared to Talonflames. And i don't count the fight in the league vs Absol, since we didn't saw the whole battle and thus we don't know which Pokemon were in the fight beforehand (Just like i don't count Snorlax vs Grumpig in Sinnoh, since only that battle was shown).

 

[GLTSRY]

Well, what are the feats in official battles of Hawlucha and Greninja compared to Talonflames. And i don't count the fight in the league vs Absol, since we didn't saw the whole battle and thus we don't know which Pokemon were in the fight beforehand (Just like i don't count Snorlax vs Grumpig in Sinnoh, since only that battle was shown).

So, according to this logic I'd be stronger than a MMA champion if I manage to knock out 3 dudes from the chess club while he takes out a continental champion?

 

[Genaller]

Personally, Alain shouldn't have bested Ash. But that's another topic.


Re-read my edit because some of my text disappeared when I initially posted. AG can hang with Mega E4 as I mention before in my other post. Whether he's bottom or mid-tier section is up to the consensus.

Not that it's relevant anymore, but I rewatched Alain vs Siebold and right after Alain MEd the screen cuts to his Bracelet and then we immediately go to Lysandre Labs where some energy readings pop up. I guess it doesn't confirm whether MC X's ME energy was also being absorbed, but at the very least it does suggest that they were tracking the energy readings given off by Charizard's ME for some reason.

 

[Mrs. Oreo]

Greninja might make an appearance, considering it's the most popular Pokemon in Japan at the minute.

I think he has a slight chance of showing up again, although who knows if he'll even have a chance at proving himself in SM since the saga doesn't seem as intense as XYZ. That's why to me perhaps the best course of action is for him to stay in Kalos forever and not reunite with Ash so that his legacy won't be tarnished by SM's apparent goofiness. ^^;