Is Geninja still a top tier Ash Pokemon without it's evolution?

[Epicocity]

I'm not counting Scizor since it's from a one-off trainer that I'm pretty sure doesn't even have a name. You can't gauge powerlevels by using someone the writers don't care for us to know about.

Clawitzer is the only example I'd give, but as I said: almost every major battle. We'd need more then just a weakened shrimp to say where it stands.

We'd also need it to go up against something other than a Mega, and especially Megas created specifically to go toe to toe with its super form. Somehow, though, I don't see us getting that. Then again, base Greninja did put up a decent fight at first against Megazard X. Oh, well. I'd still put it up there with the likes of every other regional ace.

 

[Lord Trollbias]

Basically the same as Infernape without Blaze. Strong but not at the level of the likes of Charizard and Sceptile (aka low Tier 1/High Tier 2 versus solid Mid-High Tier 1)

 

[STICKTOPIA]

Without its special form is just like Infernape without Blaze. Strong, but not as other Ash's powehouses. He was easly defeated by Sceptile in its normal form.

It was easily defeated partly because ash was too focused on its form and got distracted when it didn't work. If Ash continued battling then it wouldn't have been easily defeated. I still get what you're saying though.

 

[Alexander18]

It is stronger than his other water type pokemon and a few non-water types of his but it not invincible. It can still be defeated as normal Greninja or as Ash-Greninja.

 

[LonelyShadow]

It's a little complicated to establish how strong regular Greninja is at this point, especially when Ash synchronizes with him so often, to the point he practically bullies people without megas like in his first match of the Kalos league.

Even with that being said, I think that definitely yes. Regular Greninja is way up with the ones like Sceptile, Infernape and Krookodile. He did manage to counter Mega Charizard's Thunderpunch with Aerial Ace, got a clean hit on Gardevoir, blocked Abomasnow's Wood Hammer and other minor accomplishments like having zero problems defeating that Scizor on episode 26.

He is 'Top tier' but not 'God tier' (Snorlax and Johto/Battle Frontier Charizard).

 

[JD]

What battles has Greninja actually lost straight up? Greninja only lost to Sceptile that one time because Ash was too busy trying to synchro.

 

[DS0308]

What battles has Greninja actually lost straight up? Greninja only lost to Sceptile that one time because Ash was too busy trying to synchro.

Mega Charizard X in XYZ013 (was a late activation but was still beaten by Blast Burn) and I'd guess we could count Avalugg in XYZ027 even though they were having problems.

As others have said it's somewhat hard to judge base Greninja's strength because they've almost always gone Synchro, although he's had various instances where he's shown to be quite capable, taking on Zard X in XYZ023 and getting a decent hit in, actually hitting Diantha's Gardevoir. Could count one-shotting Clawitzer as it did heal itself.

 

[ZettaSlowKing]

I'd put him as top tier even without the form. We've seen him take down tougher opponents before like against Gogoat. And he was able to hold his own against Sceptile in a fluky loss where Ash basically handed Sawyer an opening when the form failed due to Ash's lack of faith. That being said, the form itself scares me more than his regular form. If Ash passes out, say goodbye to the League trophy.

 

[UltimateNinja]

Greninja = Infernape = mid tier 1 pokemon
Ash-Greninja = Blazed Infernape = high tier 1 pokemon

So yeah exactly the same as Infernape. Maybe Greninja is slightly stronger due to the whole Ash-Greninja thing.

 

[Sprinter1988]

Its tough to compare Ash Greninja to Blaze Infernape because they aren't used in the same way.

Once Ash and Infernape mastered the Blaze ability, there are only two pokemon that were defeated using it - Volkner's Luxray and Paul's Electivire. Infernape defeated plenty of pokemon without relying on Blaze.

Ash-Greninja is different because Greninja goes into this form in almost every battle its in, making its more difficult to say how strong Greninja is in its normal form.

 

[Xenon Blue]

Probably around the same as Infernape and Sceptile. Not enough battles as normal Greninja to justify if its higher or lower.

 

[Rohanator]

It was able to damage a Champion's ace Mon in its base form, so in terms of raw feats its already above any other Pokemon Ash has ever had. Now of course Charizard and Sceptile haven't been given the opportunity to fight champions, I'm sure they'd be capable of doing the same, but I'd still say Greninja is top tier already in terms of Ash Mons.

 

[ShinyCharyZard]

Considering that these "tiers" are nothing but a load of old codswallop dreamed up by the fans, how can we possibly say? I mean, everyone rates everything differently anyway..

 

[Spartan 117]

Greninja is basically Infernape, without Blaze of course, maybe even slightly stronger, but I could be wrong. But now, here's the catch, Ash and Greninja can go AG on demand and thus have early lead in a battle, Infernape on the other hand has to rely on Blaze and before it could wait to get it's ability activated, it could have taken HUGE damage or just got OHKO'd, like Flint did. In this aspect, Greninja is a huge star, getting better marks than Infernape. Poor Charizard has no mega (yet), so no special boost for this guy. Snorlax's capabilities fluctuate, but it can be handy in desperate times. No other Pokemon have a special ability or any boost that can help them in the battle. Greninja still is good in it's normal form, Water Shuriken isn't that bad as it is in games, rather pretty good in anime. While battling Mega Xard for a while, it did manage to land an aerial ace vs thunder punch, which is good. Landed "cut" on Gardevoir while the last year's champion couldn't even have landed a hit when Carne played around with him.

Greninja is easily one of Ash's best mons, but Infernape still can give it a challenge. Maybe Oshawott is the best mon of Ash.....?

 

[Navin]

Considering that these "tiers" are nothing but a load of old codswallop dreamed up by the fans, how can we possibly say? I mean, everyone rates everything differently anyway..

"Tiers" are far better than straight ranking every Pokémon #1-30+. Even if everyone rates differently, most people generally clump the same Pokémon at the same tier (PCSIGS at the top; Bulba/Swel/Glisc/Glal/Hera/Krook/King as next best, etc).

 

[Afrodisiac]

Basically the same as Infernape without Blaze. Strong but not at the level of the likes of Charizard and Sceptile (aka low Tier 1/High Tier 2 versus solid Mid-High Tier 1)

Since when was Sceptile on Charizard's level??

Sceptile lost A LOT of his matches, never really had a huge shining moment until Darkrai, and that was a team effort.

You can't really compare Sceptile to Infernape and Greninja (at least the latter two wrecked ship since they were a Monferno/Frogadier), much less Charizard.

 

[thedarkdragon11]

Is it really fair to compare Ash-Greninja to Infernape's Blaze? Infernape's Blaze is his ability which is not really intended to be activated (not at trainer's will), Ash-Greninja is Greninja's form which is activated like ME (at will). It's like comparing Ash-Greninja to Pikachu's Static.

Anyway, to answer the question, I think Greninja is still a potential top tier without Ash-Greninja. It's just that we always see him battle in Ash-Greninja form, just like we always see Alain's Charizard in Mega Charizard X form.

 

[GLTSRY]

Since when was Sceptile on Charizard's level??

Sceptile lost A LOT of his matches, never really had a huge shining moment until Darkrai, and that was a team effort.

You can't really compare Sceptile to Infernape and Greninja (at least the latter two wrecked ship since they were a Monferno/Frogadier), much less Charizard.

When did Sceptile lose a lot of matches? I can only remeber the battle against Brandon, and even then it wasn't Ash who gave the commands. Infernape's strong, no question, but Sceptile doesn't need its ability to beat a strong opponent.

Remember, it battled a lot more as a Treecko and Grovyle than Charizard and Infernape did in their pre-forms, it's only logical to have more losses, and even then, the pre-evolutions are not important in this discussion

 

[Blazerz]

When did Sceptile lose a lot of matches? I can only remeber the battle against Brandon, and even then it wasn't Ash who gave the commands. Infernape's strong, no question, but Sceptile doesn't need its ability to beat a strong opponent.

Remember, it battled a lot more as a Treecko and Grovyle than Charizard and Infernape did in their pre-forms, it's only logical to have more losses, and even then, the pre-evolutions are not important in this discussion

Since when is using your ability making a Pokemon weaker just because he "relies on it" which isn't really true about Infernape since it already proved it's strenght without it in the Sinnoh League. How did we even get to the point of comparing a strong ability with a completly new form?

Anyways base Greninja isn't as strong as some of the mentioned before like Ape, Charizard, Sceptile.

 

[thor94]

Base greninja is strong, but clearly not in ash top tiers pokemon.
And don't forget the frog ninja didn't face the same opponent than older ash pokemon.
infernape, sceptile and charizard, mostly faced and stood against years experimented strong elite trainers and pokemons (including legendaries), when beside diantha and alain (who crushed the base form without need mega) greninja only faced newbies with few months experience at best.
even in badass mode, he is only able to reach blaze infernape level but doesn't compare with sceptile or charizard.