Is Geninja still a top tier Ash Pokemon without it's evolution?

[GLTSRY]

Since when is using your ability making a Pokemon weaker just because he "relies on it" which isn't really true about Infernape since it already proved it's strenght without it in the Sinnoh League. How did we even get to the point of comparing a strong ability with a completly new form?

Anyways base Greninja isn't as strong as some of the mentioned before like Ape, Charizard, Sceptile.

I never said it was weaker, I said Sceptile doesn't need it to beat strong opponents, that's a different thing. We never saw many battles of base Greninja, but it performed well in them, however, Ash-Greninja is needed in order to beat ME.

It's a fact that Infernape uses Blaze against opponents that are strong, Sceptile and Charizard don't need that.

 

[Blazerz]

I never said it was weaker, I said Sceptile doesn't need it to beat strong opponents, that's a different thing. We never saw many battles of base Greninja, but it performed well in them, however, Ash-Greninja is needed in order to beat ME.

It's a fact that Infernape uses Blaze against opponents that are strong, Sceptile and Charizard don't need that.

Yeah, but their respective abilities ( blaze, overgrowth ) aren't really shown as strong as Infernape's. Still i don't think DP really explained why his blaze was so powerful, was it just his famous battle spirit or something else. I agree about Greninja but it held it's own against Zard-X before transforming in Ash and Alain's last battle which was impresive.

 

[nickdt]

Ash-Greninja is strong.... but its weaker than Talonflame and Hawlucha when its in regular form.

When it was a Frogadier, it struggled against Meowstic.

It could only bring a hit against Mega Zard when the form was activated, while Talonflame brought in a hit against Mega Lucario, while not even fully evolved. Greninja couldn't take out Avalugg with the form (Although it wasn't fully mastered, it still had acces to the form), while Talonflame, without the form defeated it.

Talonflame brought a hit against Moltres and tanked Zapdos attacks, while Greninja hasn't faced legendaries.

If you look it at that and if the battle of Hawlucha counts (Which imo, it doesnt since we didn't saw the whole battle and thus we don't know how many hits Absol got before going down to Hawlucha), Hawlucha is stronger than Greninja, since it brought down a Mega without having acces to the Ash-Greninja form, while Regular Greninja couldn't.

 

[lemoncatpower]

Ash-Greninja is strong.... but its weaker than Talonflame and Hawlucha when its in regular form.

When it was a Frogadier, it struggled against Meowstic.

It could only bring a hit against Mega Zard when the form was activated, while Talonflame brought in a hit against Mega Lucario, while not even fully evolved. Greninja couldn't take out Avalugg with the form (Although it wasn't fully mastered, it still had acces to the form), while Talonflame, without the form defeated it.

Talonflame brought a hit against Moltres and tanked Zapdos attacks, while Greninja hasn't faced legendaries.

If you look it at that and if the battle of Hawlucha counts (Which imo, it doesnt since we didn't saw the whole battle and thus we don't know how many hits Absol got before going down to Hawlucha), Hawlucha is stronger than Greninja, since it brought down a Mega without having acces to the Ash-Greninja form, while Regular Greninja couldn't.

that's a really weird thought lol, that Greninja isn't the strongest pokemon of Ash's if you exlude Ash-Greninja.
Definitely makes Hawlucha and Talonflame sound way stronger.

 

[PAndrews]

Ash-Greninja is strong.... but its weaker than Talonflame and Hawlucha when its in regular form.

You can not be serious

When it was a Frogadier, it struggled against Meowstic.

It could only bring a hit against Mega Zard when the form was activated, while Talonflame brought in a hit against Mega Lucario, while not even fully evolved. Greninja couldn't take out Avalugg with the form (Although it wasn't fully mastered, it still had acces to the form), while Talonflame, without the form defeated it.

Wow, thats extremely biased
Not only is that Mega Zard an E4 level opponent while Lucario was a mere Gym Leader level one, but Avalugg had its Ice Body exploit while tanking Greninja's attack and didn't have his healing has when Talonflame got the win.

Talonflame brought a hit against Moltres and tanked Zapdos attacks, while Greninja hasn't faced legendaries.

Talonflame lost to both those Legendaries, while Greninja fought the Champ on equal footing and has a rivalry going with Mega-Zard, who is E4 level.

If you look it at that and if the battle of Hawlucha counts (Which imo, it doesnt since we didn't saw the whole battle and thus we don't know how many hits Absol got before going down to Hawlucha), Hawlucha is stronger than Greninja, since it brought down a Mega without having acces to the Ash-Greninja form, while Regular Greninja couldn't.

Hawlucha got oneshotted by Clawitzer, who then got oneshotted by Greninja.

People really seem to ignore the massive amount of wins Greninja has been having, even without transforming its clearly the strongest member of the current team.

Then add how we just saw Alain's Charizard wrecking Remo's team without Mega evolving and put up a good fight against Mega Garchomp before activating its own Mega Evolution, so even in "base" his Charizard is ridiculously overpowered (willing to bet its stronger then Ash's)
In their last battle Greninja went toe to toe with Mega Charizard, overpowered his first thunderpunch and then tanked 2 more attacks before even activating its Ash-Greninja form. So in its base it went toe to toe with the overpowered Mega who has beaten an E4 mega and just plowed right through every League opponent with a perfect winning streak.
Then we also have it putting up a good fight against Diantha's Gardevoir before both transformed

So yeah, Greninja in its regular form is already top tier and a possible contender for the nr 1 spot, as Ash-Greninja it is without a doubt the strongest

 

[andrewscott48209]

You can not be serious



Wow, thats extremely biased
Not only is that Mega Zard an E4 level opponent while Lucario was a mere Gym Leader level one, but Avalugg had its Ice Body exploit while tanking Greninja's attack and didn't have his healing has when Talonflame got the win.



Talonflame lost to both those Legendaries, while Greninja fought the Champ on equal footing and has a rivalry going with Mega-Zard, who is E4 level.



Hawlucha got oneshotted by Clawitzer, who then got oneshotted by Greninja.

People really seem to ignore the massive amount of wins Greninja has been having, even without transforming its clearly the strongest member of the current team.

Then add how we just saw Alain's Charizard wrecking Remo's team without Mega evolving and put up a good fight against Mega Garchomp before activating its own Mega Evolution, so even in "base" his Charizard is ridiculously overpowered (willing to bet its stronger then Ash's)
In their last battle Greninja went toe to toe with Mega Charizard, overpowered his first thunderpunch and then tanked 2 more attacks before even activating its Ash-Greninja form. So in its base it went toe to toe with the overpowered Mega who has beaten an E4 mega and just plowed right through every League opponent with a perfect winning streak.
Then we also have it putting up a good fight against Diantha's Gardevoir before both transformed

So yeah, Greninja in its regular form is already top tier and a possible contender for the nr 1 spot, as Ash-Greninja it is without a doubt the strongest

Not to mention scoring a good hit on the champion's Gardivoir with a good strategy from Ash.

 

[Epicocity]

Ash-Greninja is strong.... but its weaker than Talonflame and Hawlucha when its in regular form.

When it was a Frogadier, it struggled against Meowstic.

It could only bring a hit against Mega Zard when the form was activated, while Talonflame brought in a hit against Mega Lucario, while not even fully evolved. Greninja couldn't take out Avalugg with the form (Although it wasn't fully mastered, it still had acces to the form), while Talonflame, without the form defeated it.

Talonflame brought a hit against Moltres and tanked Zapdos attacks, while Greninja hasn't faced legendaries.

If you look it at that and if the battle of Hawlucha counts (Which imo, it doesnt since we didn't saw the whole battle and thus we don't know how many hits Absol got before going down to Hawlucha), Hawlucha is stronger than Greninja, since it brought down a Mega without having acces to the Ash-Greninja form, while Regular Greninja couldn't.

How come no one ever brings up Ash's state of mind through that entire first battle against Wulfric? He was not his usual self, and certainly not the self that could win. It was outright stated. Greninja losing to both Avalugg and Sceptile earlier has nothing to do with how strong it is. XYZ 28 proved that all of Ash's Pokemon get strength from their trainer, and with Ash's mind in the wrong place, they were considerably weaker. As PAndrews stated above, Hawlucha lost to Clawitzer which base Greninja quickly defeated. On top of that: Talonflame still lost bad in the first Wulfric match.

 

[XxlapsxX]

I hardly think Greninja can be in Ash's top tier pokemon, Sceptile had no problem beating him, even easier for Avalugg.

He might be on top of tier 2

Glalie, heracross, kingler, krokodile, etc

 

[Epicocity]

I hardly think Greninja can be in Ash's top tier pokemon, Sceptile had no problem beating him, even easier for Avalugg.

He might be on top of tier 2

Glalie, heracross, kingler, krokodile, etc

Please, people, stop using Greninja's loss to Sceptile and Avalugg as evidence for Greninja not being top tier! For the love of all that is good...

Ash was the one who screwed up in both fights, leading to all his Pokemon getting roasted. Had Ash not been distracted by being unable to activate the form, Greninja may have won. We have no idea. The loss against Avalugg was because Ash wasn't in the right frame of mind. This was confirmed in canon. Don't forget, Talonflame lost to that beast, too and it still destroyed it next time. On top of this, Ash-Greninja was in pretty much clear dominance over Mega Sceptile, especially once he could get close.

 

[Shadao]

Please, people, stop using Greninja's loss to Sceptile and Avalugg as evidence for Greninja not being top tier! For the love of all that is good...

Ash was the one who screwed up in both fights, leading to all his Pokemon getting roasted. Had Ash not been distracted by being unable to activate the form, Greninja may have won. We have no idea. The loss against Avalugg was because Ash wasn't in the right frame of mind. This was confirmed in canon. Don't forget, Talonflame lost to that beast, too and it still destroyed it next time. On top of this, Ash-Greninja was in pretty much clear dominance over Mega Sceptile, especially once he could get close.

Indeed. Do we attribute Charizard's loss against Dusclops in the Battle Frontier as proof that it's weaker than Pikachu, or that Ash made mistake on Dusclops's typing with Seismic Toss? I remember that chart that shows Ash Pokémon being ranked by a win/loss ratio and according to it (this is prior to the Kalos League), Goodra is apparently Ash's strongest Pokémon (at 100%) with Infernape coming in second and Greninja coming in third. Charizard is notably ranked below Gible and Scraggy. Does that sound right to any fan that Gible is stronger than Charizard. A Charizard that took down a legendary? (Talonflame and Sceptile has the same rank as Torterra)

 

[Epicocity]

Indeed. Do we attribute Charizard's loss against Dusclops in the Battle Frontier as proof that it's weaker than Pikachu, or that Ash made mistake on Dusclops's typing with Seismic Toss? I remember that chart that shows Ash Pokémon being ranked by a win/loss ratio and according to it (this is prior to the Kalos League), Goodra is apparently Ash's strongest Pokémon (at 100%) with Infernape coming in second and Greninja coming in third. Charizard is notably ranked below Gible and Scraggy. Does that sound right to any fan that Gible is stronger than Charizard. A Charizard that took down a legendary?

Thank you! These are my points exactly! A W/L ratio ultimately means nothing when there are so many other factors to consider: what kind of opponent their facing, the state of the trainer's mind, the moves called out, the knowledge each side has, etc.

 

[XxlapsxX]

Please, people, stop using Greninja's loss to Sceptile and Avalugg as evidence for Greninja not being top tier! For the love of all that is good...

Ash was the one who screwed up in both fights, leading to all his Pokemon getting roasted. Had Ash not been distracted by being unable to activate the form, Greninja may have won. We have no idea. The loss against Avalugg was because Ash wasn't in the right frame of mind. This was confirmed in canon. Don't forget, Talonflame lost to that beast, too and it still destroyed it next time. On top of this, Ash-Greninja was in pretty much clear dominance over Mega Sceptile, especially once he could get close.

Ok, lets stop using Sceptile and Avalugg as evidence for not being top tier, but what is the actual evidence for Greninja to BE top tier? It hasnt been and probably we will never see a relevant Base Greninja match, so we'd better start considering Greninjash as the only pokemon, since if we look at its base form, there is no way it can be considered in top tier.

 

[Epicocity]

Ok, lets stop using Sceptile and Avalugg as evidence for not being top tier, but what is the actual evidence for Greninja to BE top tier? It hasnt been and probably we will never see a relevant Base Greninja match, so we'd better start considering Greninjash as the only pokemon, since if we look at its base form, there is no way it can be considered in top tier.

I could argue that base Greninja was able to match Mega Charizard long enough to land a hit on it, landed a hit on Diantha's Gardevoir, oneshotted Clawitzer, went on even level with Sceptile before the big battle, took out a Scizor (which it has no effective moves against, really). So, yes, Greninja does have quite a few feats to its name. Consider, though, that the majority of opponents that Greninja faces are also Megas of (implied) obscene strength. To not use Ash-Greninja would be foolish.

 

[XxlapsxX]

I could argue that base Greninja was able to match Mega Charizard long enough to land a hit on it, landed a hit on Diantha's Gardevoir, oneshotted Clawitzer, went on even level with Sceptile before the big battle, took out a Scizor (which it has no effective moves against, really). So, yes, Greninja does have quite a few feats to its name. Consider, though, that the majority of opponents that Greninja faces are also Megas of (implied) obscene strength. To not use Ash-Greninja would be foolish.

Pls, lets not use land a shot as evidence, if we describe top tier pokemon as those who were able to " land a hit" then Ash must be a terrible trainer, remember that we are talking top tier here, and u have such good pokemon on tier2 (Kingler, glalie, krokodile, gliscor, Heracross, etc)

Agree, it'd stupid not to use Syncro, so talking about Greninjash, yes he is definitely in top tier.

 

[Epicocity]

Pls, lets not use land a shot as evidence, if we describe top tier pokemon as those who were able to " land a hit" then Ash must be a terrible trainer, remember that we are talking top tier here, and u have such good pokemon on tier2 (Kingler, glalie, krokodile, gliscor, Heracross, etc)

Agree, it'd stupid not to use Syncro, so talking about Greninjash, yes he is definitely in top tier.

Considering that Ash was unable to do anything against base Charizard in the first battle, being able to hit Charizard is a feat. Combine that with Alain supposedly being E4 level. But landing a hit on Diantha's Gardevoir is a major feat, considering that it was spamming teleportation. The fact that Greninja could land a hit is pretty remarkable when not even Pikachu could in their earlier battle. And that doesn't take away oneshotting Clawitzer. It's pretty obvious that Base Greninja is very much in the upper tiers. Ash-Greninja pretty much takes it beyond that.

 

[XxlapsxX]

Considering that Ash was unable to do anything against base Charizard in the first battle, being able to hit Charizard is a feat. Combine that with Alain supposedly being E4 level. But landing a hit on Diantha's Gardevoir is a major feat, considering that it was spamming teleportation. The fact that Greninja could land a hit is pretty remarkable when not even Pikachu could in their earlier battle. And that doesn't take away oneshotting Clawitzer. It's pretty obvious that Base Greninja is very much in the upper tiers. Ash-Greninja pretty much takes it beyond that.

Guess we are not going anywere, so pikachu couldnt landba hit, it must be a bad pokemon, so base greninja accomplishments are landing a hit on Charizard, Gardevoir and OHKOing a Clawitzer who had had a battle already. Lets go to top tier!!!

 

[Epicocity]

Guess we are not going anywere, so pikachu couldnt landba hit, it must be a bad pokemon, so base greninja accomplishments are landing a hit on Charizard, Gardevoir and OHKOing a Clawitzer who had had a battle already. Lets go to top tier!!!

I'm not saying Pikachu's a bad Pokemon at all. I'm saying that even Pikachu couldn't hit Gardevoir, while Greninja did. Clawitzer hardly had a battle. It was hit by one Boomburst, healed up with Heal Pulse and then wrecked Hawlucha without another hit. Almost everything we've seen of base Greninja has shown it to either dominate its opponents (Scizor, Clawitzer) or be up against opponents with vastly more strength/experience than it (Mega Charizard, Diantha's Gardevoir). Sceptile was the only one at its level that it struggled with, and that was hardly the case in their final match.

 

[nickdt]

Indeed. Do we attribute Charizard's loss against Dusclops in the Battle Frontier as proof that it's weaker than Pikachu, or that Ash made mistake on Dusclops's typing with Seismic Toss? I remember that chart that shows Ash Pokémon being ranked by a win/loss ratio and according to it (this is prior to the Kalos League), Goodra is apparently Ash's strongest Pokémon (at 100%) with Infernape coming in second and Greninja coming in third. Charizard is notably ranked below Gible and Scraggy. Does that sound right to any fan that Gible is stronger than Charizard. A Charizard that took down a legendary? (Talonflame and Sceptile has the same rank as Torterra)

Finally, some who gets the win/loss ratio. Win/loss ratio outright states Talonflame and Sceptile are stronger than Regular Greninja, since they fought more Official battles, the opponent doesn't matter in the win/loss ratio (battles recognized by the Pokemon League, thus the Rival battles outside the league against Sawyer, Diantha and Alain don't count)

Same win/Loss ratio outright states Krookodile is stronger than Pikachu, Sceptile and Charizard, but since the last three fought more battles, they are overall better.

Talonflame and Regular Greninja is the same, since i don't count Ash-Greninja's wins towards regular Greninja's win/loss ratio. Not doing this, may cripple Greninja's win/loss ratio, but counting it, cripples the win/loss ratio of Ash other Pokemon since they don't have acces to the form.

Talonflame is better than Regular Greninja, due to the amount of battles and thus getting the obviously lower amount of win/loss ratio.

And like you mentioned: Sceptile and Talonflame have the same rank, but Sceptile is better, since it has more battles.

 

[XxlapsxX]

Wel actually i dont think W/L ratio is that important, what makes powerhouses to be that good is their abillity to win important (and some memorable) battles against strong pokemons, thats why i say greninja hasn't done anything, and greninsjash have only defeated m sceptile (he will likely win against M-zard too, and that will be his ticket to move straight up to top tier.). We must notice also that this season Greninja has been the only pokemon who had any chance to probe his value so far, even pikachu was ignored, while greninja got M Evo and (probably) will get Z-Move. Thus, it is because of all this power ups that people might get confused about base greninja true power.

Having said that, IMO greninja is not at the same level as true Ash's powerhouses.
(Pikachu,Charizard,Sceptile,Infernape,Snorlax)

 

[Shadao]

The issue with Ash Greninja and base Greninja is that's pretty difficult to know how they would do without the transformation simply because unlike Mega Evolution, Ash doesn't need anything other than himself to activate Ash Greninja. It's natural for him to enter in this mode ever since Ash's Frogadier evolved into Greninja. And really, when his competition is against Mega Evolved Pokémon, there's no reason not to use it. Alain's Mega Charizard X is powerful, but how powerful is it in its base form? You rarely see Alain battle with Charizard at his base form. Is it more powerful than Ash's Charizard? Many would say Mega Charizard X is definitely more powerful than Ash's Charizard, but many argue over the base form.

Really, we should not handicap a Pokémon's full strength to consider tier position. It's the equivalent of trying to handicap Rayquaza that knows Dragon Ascent.