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Is Geninja still a top tier Ash Pokemon without it's evolution?

NegaiFreak

Plus Ultra!
Ash-Greninja is not his most powerful pokemon. It is Pikachu and his Charizard that are his best pokemon. Followed by Sceptile, Infernape and then Greninja.
Yet, I can firmly say that as Ash-Greninja, he is arguably Ash's most powerful Pokémon. Without his transformation, I could still stay he's in the top tier of Ash's strongest team. He's been able to handle plenty of different opponents before utilizing the transformation, which occurred at random at first because of Ash and Greninja's hearts and minds syncing up.

Even now, it still does. Ash and Greninja just go about the transformation more or less naturally as the battle goes on. It's their version of a Mega Evolution.
 

Illusio

Well-Known Member
Mega Evolution doesn't change the fact that Trevor has had a zero win record, very limited experience and has only faced one strong foe (who absolutely slaughtered him). Ash's Charizard in his base form has done much more then Trevor's could ever hope to do (such as beating an Articuno) and ignoring that just because of the Mega is writing off all of Ash's Charizard's successes and Trevor's failures.

Additionally, Megas can be beat by regular Pokemon, Pikachu shown that in the match against Mega Lucario, who probably had more experience then Trevor did. So I don't think Trevor's should get a free pass for having a Mega when it has been a complete flop otherwise.
 

DankOverlord

Komodo Dragons Rule!
Mega Evolution doesn't change the fact that Trevor has had a zero win record, very limited experience and has only faced one strong foe (who absolutely slaughtered him). Ash's Charizard in his base form has done much more then Trevor's could ever hope to do (such as beating an Articuno) and ignoring that just because of the Mega is writing off all of Ash's Charizard's successes and Trevor's failures.

Additionally, Megas can be beat by regular Pokemon, Pikachu shown that in the match against Mega Lucario, who probably had more experience then Trevor did. So I don't think Trevor's should get a free pass for having a Mega when it has been a complete flop otherwise.
Totally agreed, a Mega Evolution isn't a instant victory, it just makes the opponent stronger but not invincible(Hawlucha vs Mega Absol is a big example). As always Feats and
Victories>Any Mega Evolution
I see Ash's Sceptile being superior to Sawyer's due to the fact that Ash's Sceptile defeated a Darkrai that swept the entire Sinnoh Region
 

nickdt

Well-Known Member
Yet, I can firmly say that as Ash-Greninja, he is arguably Ash's most powerful Pokémon. Without his transformation, I could still stay he's in the top tier of Ash's strongest team. He's been able to handle plenty of different opponents before utilizing the transformation, which occurred at random at first because of Ash and Greninja's hearts and minds syncing up.

Even now, it still does. Ash and Greninja just go about the transformation more or less naturally as the battle goes on. It's their version of a Mega Evolution.
Ash-Greninja is not Ash most powerfull Pokemon, since, and this may come as a surprise for you, Ash-Greninja is a form. Greninja has zero feats in regular form in official battles (And this are the ones that are counted, not rival battles or wild battles). Since Greninja relies on its form in battle, its weaker than Hawlucha and Talonflame, who don't have to rely on a form to come to better results in regular form.
 

Franckie

Well-Known Member
Totally agreed, a Mega Evolution isn't a instant victory, it just makes the opponent stronger but not invincible(Hawlucha vs Mega Absol is a big example). As always Feats and
Victories>Any Mega Evolution
I see Ash's Sceptile being superior to Sawyer's due to the fact that Ash's Sceptile defeated a Darkrai that swept the entire Sinnoh Region
We only saw the conclusion to Hawlucha vs. Mega Absol, not the match itself. We have zero evidence that Hawlucha is stronger.
 

Ominous Wind

Well-Known Member
It really didn't take too much to bring Perfect Ash-Greninja down. As always, the staff changes how much it can tank constantly.
 

dean1234

Well-Known Member
It's still weak even in the form. I'm going through a phase right now..oh.pokemon................
 

Mew2

Team Rocket's Enemy
Given what we saw today, no. I'd even hesitate to say that Ash-Greninja would beat Charizard or Sceptile one-on-one. Sceptile would have the better shot due to his type advantage, but Charizard would also have flight to aid him in battle against Greninja.
 

Lucas MV

Well-Known Member
Charizard, Pikachu and Sceptile are Ash's strongest. With Infernape, Greninja and Snorlax coming right after.

With the Ash-Greninja transformation, however, Greninja is in at least the same tier as Ash's best. Maybe a bit stronger.
 

Franckie

Well-Known Member
Wow. Butthurt leaking into this thread. We haven't even gotten to the rematch yet between Alain and Ash, not to mention the high probability that Ash will have one last match with Diantha before he leaves. Then we'll people changing their tunes on Ash-Greninja.
 

Billybo10K

Silent Trainer
I don't think today's episode can be a guage for how weak Ash-Greninja really is when it obviously got screwed over by the writers. We've seen it tank and take massive damage before, so why not now? It's because the writers just change it's defences on a whim. I still say Greninja is definitely up there in terms of strength in Ash's Pokemon. It's definitely his Kalos Ace if that helps with the subjective opinions of the thread.
 
The latest episode proves that Ash-Greninja is not unstoppable which is a good thing. Ash did his best and that is all that matters. Greninja is still a decent pokemon.
 

Greneuliest808

Future Graduate
The day Ash-Greninja beats Mega Charizard X is the day Greninja becomes Ash's undoubted number 1 Pokémon.
Oh, for sure. We all want to see that happen someday, especially me since Greninja is my favorite Pokemon.
 

TheMarvelMC

Kalos League Victor!
Oh, for sure. We all want to see that happen someday, especially me since Greninja is my favorite Pokemon.
I'd argue that if it beats Zard in a 100% fair 1v1, Greninja will take the spot for strongest non-Champion/E-4 Pokémon (even surpassing Tobias' legendaries IMO). Greninja has to beat it first though.
 
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