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Is Geninja still a top tier Ash Pokemon without it's evolution?

PAndrews

Well-Known Member
Guess we are not going anywere, so pikachu couldnt landba hit, it must be a bad pokemon, so base greninja accomplishments are landing a hit on Charizard, Gardevoir and OHKOing a Clawitzer who had had a battle already. Lets go to top tier!!!

No, Greninja forcing Charizard to Mega evolve and then fight it as a mega, repelling its Thunderpunch and later tanking another before finally activating its own mega-form are impressive
It going toe to toe with the Champs Pokemon before both activated their mega form is even more impressive

These 2 feats alone means its realistically possible that Greninja is stronger then all of Ash's other Pokemon in its base form. This includes Charizard (who I doubt is stronger then Alain's base Charizard)

His other Pokemon's best showings are at most battling legendaries (a feat Talonflame, Noivern and Hawlucha now also share), but none of them have ever been able to lay so much as a scratch on an E4 Pokemon. Greninja is fighting E4 level opponents and the actual Champ on even ground, a feat never before accomplished by any of Ash's Pokemon.
We also have the writers themselves calling this Ash's Ultimate Team, which implies his current team are all high/top rankers among his Pokemon, since it would be his "ultimate team" if any of his previous teams surpassed this one. Add that they have all been shown at least capable of battling Legendaries or higher and their final League opponent is a 6v6 battle with a guy shown to be E4 level and its clear this whole team is pretty damn powerful
 
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Cradily17

Well-Known Member
Eh. I'd say its base form is right up there with Charizard and Sceptile, possibly a bit weaker than Pikachu. Although it is a bit telling that Ash-Greninja couldn't even defeat an Avalugg the first time it battled against it. Maybe if it actually learned some Special moves...
 

nickdt

Well-Known Member
Eh. I'd say its base form is right up there with Charizard and Sceptile, possibly a bit weaker than Pikachu. Although it is a bit telling that Ash-Greninja couldn't even defeat an Avalugg the first time it battled against it. Maybe if it actually learned some Special moves...

If Greninja's base form is up there with Charizard and Sceptile, then, so are Talonflame and Hawlucha, since they have done more in their base form than Base Greninja.
 

ACEtrainer.Cedric..117

Well-Known Member
Nope, in its normal form it wont last long in battle( it will be able to take some punishment and deal some damage to charX but it'll go down) its form however,gives him the edge to stay on parr with the well trained megas.
Getting to thr point,I'd say with that form he's his best bet,no doubt about that. But in its normal form. ...............no,not exactly.
Because he's still weak against the well trained.

Don't get me wrong here people, thats just my opinion.
 

AuraKshatriya

Well-Known Member
No, Greninja forcing Charizard to Mega evolve and then fight it as a mega, repelling its Thunderpunch and later tanking another before finally activating its own mega-form are impressive
It going toe to toe with the Champs Pokemon before both activated their mega form is even more impressive

These 2 feats alone means its realistically possible that Greninja is stronger then all of Ash's other Pokemon in its base form. This includes Charizard (who I doubt is stronger then Alain's base Charizard)

His other Pokemon's best showings are at most battling legendaries (a feat Talonflame, Noivern and Hawlucha now also share), but none of them have ever been able to lay so much as a scratch on an E4 Pokemon. Greninja is fighting E4 level opponents and the actual Champ on even ground, a feat never before accomplished by any of Ash's Pokemon.
We also have the writers themselves calling this Ash's Ultimate Team, which implies his current team are all high/top rankers among his Pokemon, since it would be his "ultimate team" if any of his previous teams surpassed this one. Add that they have all been shown at least capable of battling Legendaries or higher and their final League opponent is a 6v6 battle with a guy shown to be E4 level and its clear this whole team is pretty damn powerful

It is worth noting that battling against Legendaries and not being immediately KO'd is not the same as defeating Legendaries. Sceptile was able to defeat a Darkrai that knocked out every Pokemon belonging to every Gym Leader in the region on its own. Given that Volkner is canonically strong enough to pose a challenge against Elite Four members (further evidenced by the fact that Ash never actually fought what is likely his strongest Pokemon - Raichu), it's reasonable to assume that Tobias' Darkrai is comparable to an Elite Four's ace Pokemon.

There's no question that his current team is extremely powerful. Though I'd argue that "Best Members" was used by the writers within a specific context, and for very specific reasons. For one, as Maldread has mentioned before, it's no doubt to drive up hype surrounding the Kalos League and Ash's potential victory, and indicative of Ash being very confident in his Pokemon moreso than them being the best Pokemon he has overall. Second, this team is objectively his "strongest team" when compared directly against the other region-specific teams, based on the innate capabilities of their species and evolutionary levels. It's his first fully-evolved team, and many members are the pinnacle of certain traits amongst all Kalos Pokemon. Goodra's endurance has so far been unmatched, Noivern's environmental awareness, Hawlucha's ability to use his opponent's attacks against the, so on and so forth. I'm personally on board with them being his strongest regional team as of the point at which they reached their respective League(s), even if in some cases battles have been so brief some members of the team have been written to succumb to far fewer hits than they should have.

Greninja is undoubtedly "S"-tier, as evidenced by it not being immediately KO'd by Mega Charizard X's Thunderpunch (and subsequent additional Thunderpunch). That said, without its transformation it hasn't actually overcome an particularly significant adversaries. Getting a hit on Gardevoir was really a combination of its speed and Ash's tactical thinking, rather than just a pure speed showcase. And obviously subsequent success can be attributed to its transformation.

So at most it's equal to Charizard, Sceptile, etc., but given how few battles its seen to fruition without transforming, I'm inclined to say its base form is a bit weaker. There's also the fact that it's far more lacking in actual battle experience, but that's dubious territory since I suppose Ash could have just become so much better at training his Pokemon that he can reproduce the same results with less experience.
 

Greneuliest808

Future Graduate
I don't think I can add much to this discussion, but I'll try my best. I think Greninja has the potential to be elite in just its base form. However, if that were too happen, I think it needs a better move set. Water Shuriken, Cut, Double Team, and Aerial Ace is not bad at all, but its just meh. Cut does look cool with hydro Kunai Knives in Ash-Greninja, but what if you have night slash instead and you can combine the water and make water-dark Kunai Knives in Ash-Greninja form? I think that would be sick too, if you think about that. Okay, going back to its base form. Instead of Aerial Ace, have maybe either Gunk Shot, Extrasensory, Ice Punch (or Wind) or Dig. He can keep Double Team since it is a very useful move. Of course, it's too bad that the producers and writers don't want any of Ash's Pokemon to have a dark type move (of course, Ash's Krookodile had a Dark-Type move, but was eventually replaced by Aerial Ace). Hopefully that will change. Like AuraKshatriya said, it endured thunder punch from MCX, even though it is super effective against Greninja. I definitely think that Greninja is one of the elites if it had a better moveset, training, and showing in base form. If it had a great moveset like Water Shuriken, Double Team, Extrasensory, and Night Slash (or if no Dark-Type Move allowed, have Water Shuriken, Double Team, Extrasensory, and Icy Wind (or Punch)), I think it can wreck any opponent in just its base form with great training. I just hope the writers and producers would allow Ash's Greninja to have a Dark-Type Move (but I highly doubt that).
 
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TheMarvelMC

Kalos League Victor!
I don't think I can add much to this discussion, but I'll try my best. I think Greninja has the potential to be elite in just its base form. However, if that were too happen, I think it needs a better move set. Water Shuriken, Cut, Double Team, and Aerial Ace is not bad at all, but its just meh. Cut does look cool with hydro Kunai Knives in Ash-Greninja, but what if you have night slash instead and you can combine the water and make water-dark Kunai Knives in Ash-Greninja form? I think that would be sick too, if you think about that. Okay, going back to its base form. Instead of Aerial Ace, have maybe either Gunk Shot, Extrasensory, Ice Punch (or Wind) or Dig. He can keep Double Team since it is a very useful move. Of course, it's too bad that the producers and writers don't want any of Ash's Pokemon to have a dark type move (of course, Ash's Krookodile had a Dark-Type move, but was eventually replaced by Aerial Ace). Hopefully that will change. Like AuraKshatriya said, it endured thunder punch from MCX, even though it is super effective against Greninja. I definitely think that Greninja is one of the elites if it had a better moveset, training, and showing in base form. If it had a great moveset like Water Shuriken, Double Team, Extrasensory, and Night Slash (or if no Dark-Type Move allowed, have Water Shuriken, Double Team, Extrasensory, and Icy Wind (or Punch)), I think it can wreck any opponent in just its base form with great training. I just hope the writers and producers would allow Ash's Greninja to have a Dark-Type Move (but I highly doubt that).

In the anime, movesets don't naturally dictate the strength of a Pokémon. It's how the trainer utilizes the moveset that decides how effective the moveset is, and in that regard, Greninja's moveset hasn't betrayed it so why bother?
 

Greneuliest808

Future Graduate
In the anime, movesets don't naturally dictate the strength of a Pokémon. It's how the trainer utilizes the moveset that decides how effective the moveset is, and in that regard, Greninja's moveset hasn't betrayed it so why bother?

*Insert if it ain't broke, don't fix it meme*
 

Skiks

MUCH RESPECT
Well Ash chose Greninja's moveset in the anime because it's effective. Cut is useful for parrying and deflecting. Aerial Ace is useful to power up the limbs when striking. Water Shuriken has become a very useful long range damage dealer and double team has it's obvious uses. I'd say it's very versatile as a pokemon and can adapt to most situations.
 

Alexander18

Dragon Pokemon fan
Greninja is strong but for me the writers are making Ash-Greninja far stronger than it suppose to be. Just my opinion. So far we never seen Greninja get defeated in it's new perfected Ash-Greninja form and that is troubling since it is not suppose to be invincible.
 

Greneuliest808

Future Graduate
Well Ash chose Greninja's moveset in the anime because it's effective. Cut is useful for parrying and deflecting. Aerial Ace is useful to power up the limbs when striking. Water Shuriken has become a very useful long range damage dealer and double team has it's obvious uses. I'd say it's very versatile as a pokemon and can adapt to most situations.

Thinking about Greninja's moveset a little further, I would have to agree with you. I mean, why change its moveset now when it has worked for Ash in the long run. I'll admit, he did utilize cut better than I expected. Using the water to make the kunai knifes is a nice touch in the Ash-Greninja form; it makes it look like it's using a water attack and it looks cool too.
 

Cevil

Well-Known Member
I'd say it could beat some of Ash's top tier Pokemon without bond phenomenon (Infernape, possibly (and I mean barely scraping a win) Charizard).

With it though it's definitely at the top, maybe one of if not the best of Ash's Pokemon.
 

dp045

Well-Known Member
So far Greninja not shown, at least not similar to the higher power Ash (Charizard, Sceptile) be a strong pokémon without the use of his Special Evolucion although this is more than anything argument must no longer than needed to fight legendary or highly skilled opponents. But anyway Ash-Greninja is the strongest Pokemon Ash although in its basic form jdb can not beat Charizard, Sceptile, Infernape or Snolax, in my opnion.
 

Locormus

Can we please get the older, old forum back?
So far Greninja not shown, at least not similar to the higher power Ash (Charizard, Sceptile) be a strong pokémon without the use of his Special Evolucion although this is more than anything argument must no longer than needed to fight legendary or highly skilled opponents. But anyway Ash-Greninja is the strongest Pokemon Ash although in its basic form jdb can not beat Charizard, Sceptile, Infernape or Snolax, in my opnion.

I can barely make out what you mean here.

The point is, Ash-Greninja fights extremely high levelled opponents: Final Gym Leader, League Semifinalist, League finalist, the Champion. The one time where it felt excessive was when he used it against the Altaria trainer.

There's no reason to believe Greninja in its base form can't beat anything. These things come down to subjective reasonings and bias. We've seen regular Greninja beat a Scizor. Normally, those are quite strong and taking one down takes skill, yet we don't know the level that Scizor was on, so we can't say for sure.
 

Franckie

Well-Known Member
The big mistake that people are making in this thread is not scaling Ash's other powerhouses to the levels we've seen in the Kalos Saga. The gap that existed between Ash and E4/Champion has gone down drastically, especially the power of their pokemon. Previous feats in other sagas don't matter, hence we need to scale pokemon to what we've seen in the Kalos Saga. Take Ash's Charizard. Sure, it's done things like beaten an Articuno in the past, but so what. In appropriate context, how strong Ash's Charizard would be in the Kalos Saga is somewhere between the levels of Trevor's Charizard and Alain's Charizard, and stands little chance against their Mega forms. Same thing with Ash's Sceptile. We don't know how strong it'd be, the only approximation we can make is that it'd be somewhere around the level of Shota's Sceptile, possibly a tad stronger (though it'd get stomped by Mega-Sceptile).

Because Greninja has proven itself to be in the ballpark of pokemon like Alain's Charizard and Diantha's Gardevoir, Greninja is among Ash's strongest pokemon. When individually compared to Ash's other pokemon, how well it'd fare depends on match-ups. Greninja would probably have an easier time dealing with Ash's Charizard than it would with Ash's Sceptile. But make no mistake. Greninja is among Ash's most powerful pokemon, and Ash-Greninja is Ash's strongest, beyond a shadow of a doubt.
 

Alexander18

Dragon Pokemon fan
Ash-Greninja is not his most powerful pokemon. It is Pikachu and his Charizard that are his best pokemon. Followed by Sceptile, Infernape and then Greninja.
 

DankOverlord

Komodo Dragons Rule!
Franckie
Why are you jumping to conclusions about Trevor's Mega Evolution power it has zero feats and zero battles won onscreen. How does it matches up against a Charizard who has 4 regions of battle experience? Same with Mega Sceptile since it has only 3 wins in its entire screentime(All of them with Type advantage and only one as Sceptile). I'm not being a Fanboy but just questioning your logic to say that a Mega Evolution means automatical win
 

AuraKshatriya

Well-Known Member
The big mistake that people are making in this thread is not scaling Ash's other powerhouses to the levels we've seen in the Kalos Saga. The gap that existed between Ash and E4/Champion has gone down drastically, especially the power of their pokemon. Previous feats in other sagas don't matter, hence we need to scale pokemon to what we've seen in the Kalos Saga. Take Ash's Charizard. Sure, it's done things like beaten an Articuno in the past, but so what. In appropriate context, how strong Ash's Charizard would be in the Kalos Saga is somewhere between the levels of Trevor's Charizard and Alain's Charizard, and stands little chance against their Mega forms. Same thing with Ash's Sceptile. We don't know how strong it'd be, the only approximation we can make is that it'd be somewhere around the level of Shota's Sceptile, possibly a tad stronger (though it'd get stomped by Mega-Sceptile).

Because Greninja has proven itself to be in the ballpark of pokemon like Alain's Charizard and Diantha's Gardevoir, Greninja is among Ash's strongest pokemon. When individually compared to Ash's other pokemon, how well it'd fare depends on match-ups. Greninja would probably have an easier time dealing with Ash's Charizard than it would with Ash's Sceptile. But make no mistake. Greninja is among Ash's most powerful pokemon, and Ash-Greninja is Ash's strongest, beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Ah, that's a good point. Though in terms of Charizard scaling in particular, we've already seen that Pokemon portrayed as nigh-undefeatable in more recent sagas are still weaker than Charizard (case in point, Iris' Dragonite). Alain's Charizard is stronger than said Dragonite, but given the wealth of experience thus far, I'd say Ash's base Charizard ~ Alain's base Charizard. Obviously throw the Mega in and Charizard loses, though. I'm willing to bet Ash's base Charizard is probably ~ Trevor's Mega Charizard Y, though.
 

Franckie

Well-Known Member
Ash-Greninja is not his most powerful pokemon. It is Pikachu and his Charizard that are his best pokemon. Followed by Sceptile, Infernape and then Greninja.

I suppose only someone like you would conveniently ignore what has occurred during the Kalos Saga. Pikachu and Charizard never managed to give a Champion's strongest pokemon a run for its money, let alone someone who has defeated an E4 onscreen (Alain).

Sceptile and Infernape were the best of Ash's pokemon during their respective sagas. Is that relevant now? No.

Franckie
Why are you jumping to conclusions about Trevor's Mega Evolution power it has zero feats and zero battles won onscreen. How does it matches up against a Charizard who has 4 regions of battle experience? Same with Mega Sceptile since it has only 3 wins in its entire screentime(All of them with Type advantage and only one as Sceptile). I'm not being a Fanboy but just questioning your logic to say that a Mega Evolution means automatical win

Like I said - Previous feats don't matter. Nor does experience (see how Shota went from zero to hero at such a ridiculous pace). But their demonstrations give us a rough idea of how Ash's other pokemon would be presented during the Kalos Saga because we can't determine their exact levels. Thus, we are forced to guesstimate.

Ash's Charizard vs. Shota's Mega Sceptile is not relevant to the discussion.

Why are you insisting that mega evolution doesn't put Ash's pokemon at a disadvantage? Take the case with Ash's Charizard. Why do you insist that it can stand up to Trevor's Mega-Charizard Y? Ash's Charizard, at best, would be scaled to the power we've seen from Alain's, and we have strong circumstantial evidence that Alain's base Charizard cannot win against Trevor's mega-evolved pokemon since Alain opted to mega-evolve his pokemon the moment Trevor did his. In appropriate context, powerscaling indicates that Ash's Charizard is at a severe disadvantage when confronted by Trevor's Mega Charizard Y, though it is within the realm of possibility it could win with proper strategy and tactics.

Ah, that's a good point. Though in terms of Charizard scaling in particular, we've already seen that Pokemon portrayed as nigh-undefeatable in more recent sagas are still weaker than Charizard (case in point, Iris' Dragonite). Alain's Charizard is stronger than said Dragonite, but given the wealth of experience thus far, I'd say Ash's base Charizard ~ Alain's base Charizard. Obviously throw the Mega in and Charizard loses, though. I'm willing to bet Ash's base Charizard is probably ~ Trevor's Mega Charizard Y, though.

I'm inclined to think so too that Ash's Charizard is on par with Alain's, though I think it's weaker since Ash doesn't specialize with Charizard whereas Alain does.

I'm skeptical about your notion that Ash's base Charizard being on par with Trevor's Mega Charizard Y. I'd like to inquire your reasoning behind it.
 
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