Is Geninja still a top tier Ash Pokemon without it's evolution?

[Greneuliest808]

I'd argue that if it beats Zard in a 100% fair 1v1, Greninja will take the spot for strongest non-Champion/E-4 Pokémon (even surpassing Tobias' legendaries IMO). Greninja has to beat it first though.

Definitely, Greninja needs to earn that win. If there is a rematch, go get it Greninja!

 

[PAndrews]

The day Ash-Greninja beats Mega Charizard X is the day Greninja becomes Ash's undoubted number 1 Pokémon.

It already earned that title quite a long time ago when he was shown capable of fighting and even overpowering the Champs strongest Pokemon and capble of surviving a fight against Mega Charizard before it even transformed. None of Ash's other pokemon have ever come close to giving an E4 member a run for their money, letalone a Champion.

Nostalgia aside Greninja is quite clearly the top ranker at this point and Sceptile and Charizard are going to need those mega stones if they want to compete.

 

[dp045]

It already earned that title quite a long time ago when he was shown capable of fighting and even overpowering the Champs strongest Pokemon and capble of surviving a fight against Mega Charizard before it even transformed. None of Ash's other pokemon have ever come close to giving an E4 member a run for their money, letalone a Champion.

Nostalgia aside Greninja is quite clearly the top ranker at this point and Sceptile and Charizard are going to need those mega stones if they want to compete.

That means that Ash be well below Alain, if your best pokémon can not beat the MC X. Well, maybe if there is no reset Ash in the next seasons in the eighth or ninth generation and should be at the level of a Elite Four. But at least AshGreninja be the strongest so far, xD.

 

[sandtreamftw]

I think alot of people are under-estimating the level of opponents Greninja has had to face. imo, Alain's Charizard is a good steps stronger than Ash's and Greninja had injured Diantha's Gardevoir without transforming. No other of Ash's Pokemon have accomplished injuring a champion's ace if we exclude Drake. That said, specifically determining each of Ash's pokemon strengths is tough because they've either haven't been in enough battles or are wildly inconsistent. I think Normal Greninja is in the same ballpark as Charizard, Sceptile, Infernape(Blaze), and Pikachu, while Ash-Greninja is in a league of its own.

 

[Quilava42]

Without its other form, I view Greninja as average, really. I view it much like Sceptile or Charizard.

 

[DankOverlord]

I think alot of people are under-estimating the level of opponents Greninja has had to face. imo, Alain's Charizard is a good steps stronger than Ash's and Greninja had injured Diantha's Gardevoir without transforming. No other of Ash's Pokemon have accomplished injuring a champion's ace if we exclude Drake. That said, specifically determining each of Ash's pokemon strengths is tough because they've either haven't been in enough battles or are wildly inconsistent. I think Normal Greninja is in the same ballpark as Charizard, Sceptile, Infernape(Blaze), and Pikachu, while Ash-Greninja is in a league of its own.

Greninja landing a hit was done because Diantha's Mega Gard took its time to charge a Moonblast while Greninja attacked it while it was charging. I mean imperfect Greninja got destroyed by Wulfric's Avalugg with the Ice Body strategy. Greninja sits IMO in the same league as Swellow, Kingler. While Perfect Ash Greninja is probably on a league of its own.

 

[PAndrews]

Greninja landing a hit was done because Diantha's Mega Gard took its time to charge a Moonblast while Greninja attacked it while it was charging. I mean imperfect Greninja got destroyed by Wulfric's Avalugg with the Ice Body strategy. Greninja sits IMO in the same league as Swellow, Kingler. While Perfect Ash Greninja is probably on a league of its own.

And as shown by Pikachu vs TR in the next episode, Ash's mindset being messed up screwed with the power of his entire team.

Greninja was matching the champs ace BEFORE either transformed. None of his Pokemon have ever been capable of fighting an E4 member on equal ground and definitely not the champs ace. He then went on to overpower that same ace in a power struggle. Greninja also fought Mega Charizard X during their second match before transforming and took multiple hits, the same Charizard that we have seen slaying his way thorugh the league (half the time without transforming).

Greninja has been portrayed as an absolute beast in battle and clearly cemented his spot above the rest even without transforming by being shown capable of fighting E4 level opponents and Champs on equal ground, a feat none of Ash's other Pokemon have ever come close to accomplishing. Anyone who says otherwise is clearly letting nostalgia cloud their judgement.

 

[DankOverlord]

And as shown by Pikachu vs TR in the next episode, Ash's mindset being messed up screwed with the power of his entire team.

Greninja was matching the champs ace BEFORE either transformed. None of his Pokemon have ever been capable of fighting an E4 member on equal ground and definitely not the champs ace. He then went on to overpower that same ace in a power struggle. Greninja also fought Mega Charizard X during their second match before transforming and took multiple hits, the same Charizard that we have seen slaying his way thorugh the league (half the time without transforming).

Greninja has been portrayed as an absolute beast in battle and clearly cemented his spot above the rest even without transforming by being shown capable of fighting E4 level opponents and Champs on equal ground, a feat none of Ash's other Pokemon have ever come close to accomplishing. Anyone who says otherwise is clearly letting nostalgia cloud their judgement.

We never saw Greninja fight in the league at all without transforming. I'm just saying that Greninja was only using its speed to avoid the attacks of a champion's ace(Who most likely was holding back or not giving its best). I say Greninjash is strong but without its form it hasn't beaten any significant opponent. And I mean BEATEN not: 'It was usign its speed to avoid attacks and land quick hits"

And if I was nostalgia biased i would have mentoned Sceptiel triumphing over a Darkrai that swept the entire region on its own, from a trainer that was basically E4/Champion level.

 

[Ominous Wind]

Today's episode more or less debunked the theory that Alain "cheated" on the finals, so I'm going to say that Greninja in his base form, is average at best. And Ash-Greninja is good, but only when it's convenient for the plot.

 

[PAndrews]

We never saw Greninja fight in the league at all without transforming. I'm just saying that Greninja was only using its speed to avoid the attacks of a champion's ace(Who most likely was holding back or not giving its best). I say Greninjash is strong but without its form it hasn't beaten any significant opponent. And I mean BEATEN not: 'It was usign its speed to avoid attacks and land quick hits"

And if I was nostalgia biased i would have mentoned Sceptiel triumphing over a Darkrai that swept the entire region on its own, from a trainer that was basically E4/Champion level.

So
1. You are assuming the champ was holding back and trying to downplay a massive feat nobody on the team or at Oak have managed to accomplish or even come close to doing while simultaneously assuming Tobias is champ level and powering up Sceptile's feat. Every other member who ever fought an E4 member got royally owned prior to this. Thats includes Pikachu (multiple times) and Infernape
2. You are assuming Tobias and Darkrai were E4 level, which is unknown, we don't know where Tobias or his legendaries rank in comparison to the E4 or the champ. Though I could bring up Sceptile losing to Regirock, which would place Tobias's Darkrai beneath Brandon's Regirock (if we want to start making assumptions on Tobias in terms of where he stands in the power chart)

Charizard beat Articuno and Pikachu beat Regice, both legendaries, but both belonging to Brains (granted Articuno was wild) who outrank gym leaders in terms of power but are weaker then the E4 members. So a trainer using a legendary does not automatically mean they are E4/Champ level, quite the opposite in fact. Look how powerful Infernape was shown to be (even without blaze), then look at how well its battle with Flint went.

Today's episode more or less debunked the theory that Alain "cheated" on the finals, so I'm going to say that Greninja in his base form, is average at best. And Ash-Greninja is good, but only when it's convenient for the plot.

Yeah, no it didn't. All it did was prove Alain was being used by TF. The how the mega energy was being gathered or what affect it had on both parties hasn't been addressedin the slightest. But by all means keep posting this assumption as fact in all the topics.

Though I'd love to hear in what way Alain potentially cheating has any merit when ranking Greninja's power. Especially in base form

 

[DankOverlord]

So
1. You are assuming the champ was holding back and trying to downplay a massive feat nobody on the team or at Oak have managed to accomplish or even come close to doing while simultaneously assuming Tobias is champ level and powering up Sceptile's feat. Every other member who ever fought an E4 member got royally owned prior to this. Thats includes Pikachu (multiple times) and Infernape
2. You are assuming Tobias and Darkrai were E4 level, which is unknown, we don't know where Tobias or his legendaries rank in comparison to the E4 or the champ. Though I could bring up Sceptile losing to Regirock, which would place Tobias's Darkrai beneath Brandon's Regirock (if we want to start making assumptions on Tobias in terms of where he stands in the power chart)

Charizard beat Articuno and Pikachu beat Regice, both legendaries, but both belonging to Brains (granted Articuno was wild) who outrank gym leaders in terms of power but are weaker then the E4 members. So a trainer using a legendary does not automatically mean they are E4/Champ level, quite the opposite in fact. Look how powerful Infernape was shown to be (even without blaze), then look at how well its battle with Flint went.

Well, can't argue that. You win this time

Yeah, no it didn't. All it did was prove Alain was being used by TF. The how the mega energy was being gathered or what affect it had on both parties hasn't been addressedin the slightest. But by all means keep posting this assumption as fact in all the topics.

Though I'd love to hear in what way Alain potentially cheating has any merit when ranking Greninja's power. Especially in base form

Agreed on this, the theory still holds some ground IMO. But I wished Mega Charizard X will lose a battle in its life that is not against an E4

 

[sandtreamftw]

Without its other form, I view Greninja as average, really. I view it much like Sceptile or Charizard.

Well, Sceptile and Charizard have defeated legendaries, so i'd hardly call them 'average'

 

[Navin]

2. You are assuming Tobias and Darkrai were E4 level, which is unknown, we don't know where Tobias or his legendaries rank in comparison to the E4 or the champ. Though I could bring up Sceptile losing to Regirock, which would place Tobias's Darkrai beneath Brandon's Regirock (if we want to start making assumptions on Tobias in terms of where he stands in the power chart)

Tobias is obviously E4 level. How many Pokémon did it take to bring down Darkrai? It took literal 'Peakachu' to draw against Latios.

Charizard beat Articuno and Pikachu beat Regice, both legendaries, but both belonging to Brains (granted Articuno was wild) who outrank gym leaders in terms of power but are weaker then the E4 members. So a trainer using a legendary does not automatically mean they are E4/Champ level, quite the opposite in fact. Look how powerful Infernape was shown to be (even without blaze), then look at how well its battle with Flint went.

Scott told Ash and co that (some of) the Brains are on par with E4. Brandon with the Regis is easily E4-tier.

In one of the movie intros, we see Palmer's Milotic matching Cynthia's Garchomp.

 

[GLTSRY]

told Ash and co that (some of) the Brains are on par with E4. Brandon with the Regis is easily E4-tier.

Nice, and who runs the BF? Scot. I'd probably hype my own company, too. It's a fact that none of the Frontier Brains (besides Brandon with his Regi's) were anywhere close to E4 Level

 

[PAndrews]

Tobias is obviously E4 level. How many Pokémon did it take to bring down Darkrai? It took literal 'Peakachu' to draw against Latios.

At the end of the day Darkra was the ultimate glass cannon
Sceptile defeated Darkrai (who had healed with Dream Eater) 1on1 with 1 Leafblade
Pikachu tied with Latios

The other 4 were basically fallguys that did nothing while Tobias Pokemon relied solely on distance attacks. Both didn't take many hits to go down.
Ash was nowhere close to E4 tier and yet 2 of his Pokemon were equal to those 2 legendaries, meaning Tobias isn't E4 tier either

Had Ash brought his 6 strongest Pokemon with him and not a mix and match (seriously, Gible?) he'd clearly have done much better, especially based on Tobias doing so well solely by relying on the "Sleep-Dream Eater" combo for every battle shown.

Scott told Ash and co that (some of) the Brains are on par with E4. Brandon with the Regis is easily E4-tier.

In one of the movie intros, we see Palmer's Milotic matching Cynthia's Garchomp.

When did he say "on par"? He said all the Brains were much stronger then Gym Leaders.

Ash beat every brain he fought, yet Lorelei, Agatha and Flint each destroyed Pikachu. Both Diantha and Adler wiped the floor with Pikachu too. He never came close to being equal to any of them he just got slaughtered. Then there is Infernape vs Flint's Infernape or Cynthia vs Paul's entire team which were all slaughters too.
Up until Kalos, the E4 and champs have always been portrayed on a completely different level then Ash and his Pokemon and semi-invincible, guys like Tobias and the Brains, all of which below E4 level were basically where Ash at his peak ranked until now.

Right now Greninja, even without transforming, has given the champ a run for her money. This is a feat of strength none of the other Pokemon have come anywhere close to accomplishing and puts both Charizard and Sceptile to shame

 

[AuraKshatriya]

At the end of the day Darkra was the ultimate glass cannon
Sceptile defeated Darkrai (who had healed with Dream Eater) 1on1 with 1 Leafblade
Pikachu tied with Latios

The other 4 were basically fallguys that did nothing while Tobias Pokemon relied solely on distance attacks. Both didn't take many hits to go down.
Ash was nowhere close to E4 tier and yet 2 of his Pokemon were equal to those 2 legendaries, meaning Tobias isn't E4 tier either

Had Ash brought his 6 strongest Pokemon with him and not a mix and match (seriously, Gible?) he'd clearly have done much better, especially based on Tobias doing so well solely by relying on the "Sleep-Dream Eater" combo for every battle shown.



When did he say "on par"? He said all the Brains were much stronger then Gym Leaders.

Ash beat every brain he fought, yet Lorelei, Agatha and Flint each destroyed Pikachu. Both Diantha and Adler wiped the floor with Pikachu too. He never came close to being equal to any of them he just got slaughtered. Then there is Infernape vs Flint's Infernape or Cynthia vs Paul's entire team which were all slaughters too.
Up until Kalos, the E4 and champs have always been portrayed on a completely different level then Ash and his Pokemon and semi-invincible, guys like Tobias and the Brains, all of which below E4 level were basically where Ash at his peak ranked until now.

Right now Greninja, even without transforming, has given the champ a run for her money. This is a feat of strength none of the other Pokemon have come anywhere close to accomplishing and puts both Charizard and Sceptile to shame

Just figured I'd comment on the second part of your post. Lots of good logic here, though! Quite comprehensive.

Regarding Pikachu's relative performance against the Brains and E4, it's not quite a fair measure of the Brains' caibre, particularly Brandon's. Pikachu KO'd a Regice that Brandon had literally just caught - it had extremely minimal training by Brandon. The strength demonstrated by Regice once Brandon returned in D/P is a better indication of Brandon's calibre as a trainer. Regirock also took down Reggie's team with what appeared to be rather minimal damage, and Reggie had an equal amount of battle experience to Ash as of D/P at the time.

Greninja, without his transformation, did indeed manage to land that hit on Gardevoir. But that was a combination of his speed along with Ash's strategic thinking - using the smoke from the initial attack to mask a follow-up Water Shuriken, which itself masked a follow-up Cut. But Greninja landing that one strike in base form itself doesn't necessarily put Sceptile or Charizard outright "to shame". Sceptile KO'd a Darkrai that KO'd every single Pokemon of all the Gym Leaders in Sinnoh - if we assume that ended up including Volkner, who himself is canonically capable of competing with E4 members (further implied by him not using Raichu against Ash), then Tobias' Darkrai is around E4 level. Plus, Sceptile took a direct Ice Beam from it and kept going, when neutral attacks OHKO'd Ash's other Pokemon. Base Sceptile is probably at least as fast (or even faster) than Greninja, given he chased down Speed form Deoxys, so landing a single hit on Gardevoir would likely be within his reach as well.

Charizard didn't really get a battle against a strong opponent as of its most recent appearance, so we don't know what the limits of its strength are with its training. But he took Iris' Dragonite's Dragon Rush with no visible damage, whereas that same move easily OHKO'd Dawn's Mamoswine. Charizard could probably also land a hit on Gardevoir - for one, he can evade her attacks with his flight, and his attacks likely have more raw power and definitely cover a wider range than Greninja's - just Flamethrower alone would torch most of the battlefield.

 

[sandtreamftw]

Just figured I'd comment on the second part of your post. Lots of good logic here, though! Quite comprehensive.

Regarding Pikachu's relative performance against the Brains and E4, it's not quite a fair measure of the Brains' caibre, particularly Brandon's. Pikachu KO'd a Regice that Brandon had literally just caught - it had extremely minimal training by Brandon. The strength demonstrated by Regice once Brandon returned in D/P is a better indication of Brandon's calibre as a trainer. Regirock also took down Reggie's team with what appeared to be rather minimal damage, and Reggie had an equal amount of battle experience to Ash as of D/P at the time.

Greninja, without his transformation, did indeed manage to land that hit on Gardevoir. But that was a combination of his speed along with Ash's strategic thinking - using the smoke from the initial attack to mask a follow-up Water Shuriken, which itself masked a follow-up Cut. But Greninja landing that one strike in base form itself doesn't necessarily put Sceptile or Charizard outright "to shame". Sceptile KO'd a Darkrai that KO'd every single Pokemon of all the Gym Leaders in Sinnoh - if we assume that ended up including Volkner, who himself is canonically capable of competing with E4 members (further implied by him not using Raichu against Ash), then Tobias' Darkrai is around E4 level. Plus, Sceptile took a direct Ice Beam from it and kept going, when neutral attacks OHKO'd Ash's other Pokemon. Base Sceptile is probably at least as fast (or even faster) than Greninja, given he chased down Speed form Deoxys, so landing a single hit on Gardevoir would likely be within his reach as well.

Charizard didn't really get a battle against a strong opponent as of its most recent appearance, so we don't know what the limits of its strength are with its training. But he took Iris' Dragonite's Dragon Rush with no visible damage, whereas that same move easily OHKO'd Dawn's Mamoswine. Charizard could probably also land a hit on Gardevoir - for one, he can evade her attacks with his flight, and his attacks likely have more raw power and definitely cover a wider range than Greninja's - just Flamethrower alone would torch most of the battlefield.

As I said, its tough to gauge the strength level of Ash's strongest pokemon due to some of their isolated feats or inconsistent strength. I think it is safe to say normal Greninja is on the same level as Ash's other fully evolved starters save Torterra.

 

[Navin]

At the end of the day Darkra was the ultimate glass cannon
Sceptile defeated Darkrai (who had healed with Dream Eater) 1on1 with 1 Leafblade
Pikachu tied with Latios

The other 4 were basically fallguys that did nothing while Tobias Pokemon relied solely on distance attacks. Both didn't take many hits to go down.
Ash was nowhere close to E4 tier and yet 2 of his Pokemon were equal to those 2 legendaries, meaning Tobias isn't E4 tier either

The DV/DE combos probably healed back Darkrai some, but it still was damaged before Sceptile entered (maybe 50-60%). And Sceptile is good.

Ash can do well against an E4 if he used his best team.

When did he say "on par"? He said all the Brains were much stronger then Gym Leaders.

IIRC he said they were on par with Agatha (an E4).

Ash beat every brain he fought, yet Lorelei, Agatha and Flint each destroyed Pikachu. Both Diantha and Adler wiped the floor with Pikachu too. He never came close to being equal to any of them he just got slaughtered. Then there is Infernape vs Flint's Infernape or Cynthia vs Paul's entire team which were all slaughters too.

A newly evolved Infernape against one of the better E4s who probably knows everything there is about that species. Pikachu gave a good fight against Gengar, and Torterra did okay against Hippowdon. His best team wouldn't get slaughtered.

Up until Kalos, the E4 and champs have always been portrayed on a completely different level then Ash and his Pokemon and semi-invincible, guys like Tobias and the Brains, all of which below E4 level were basically where Ash at his peak ranked until now.

Don't emphasize too much on actual ranking. Volkner and Roxie are gym leaders, but have shown they are really good. Brandon with his Regis is easily E4-tier, as well as guys like Noland and Palmer.

 

[Mrs. Oreo]

As I said, its tough to gauge the strength level of Ash's strongest pokemon due to some of their isolated feats or inconsistent strength. I think it is safe to say normal Greninja is on the same level as Ash's other fully evolved starters save Torterra.

Poor Torterra, he'll never live down his losses ha ha. Greninja reminds me of Ash's Sceptile when it comes to strength so I think he's at a high level of course, but at the same time it feels like his Ash form has led to him becoming increasingly overestimated as seen when most fans expected him to defeat mega Charizard X a few weeks ago. I kind of wish he never had his Ash form at all and simply fought using his normal strength.

 

[DankOverlord]

As I said, its tough to gauge the strength level of Ash's strongest pokemon due to some of their isolated feats or inconsistent strength. I think it is safe to say normal Greninja is on the same level as Ash's other fully evolved starters save Torterra.

TBH even with his from Greninja is very incosistent in terms of feats