Is it homophobic to think of homosexuality as a sin?

[TheWanderingMist]

The common denouncement of it in the Bible is an incomplete translation, because English doesn't have separate terms for the concept. It's actually criticizing the Ancient Greek practice of pederasty, which was an older man and a young boy being in a sexual relationship.

There are a lot of other misunderstood things in the Bible, like the story of Onan. It's taken as an anti-masturbation rule (@Prof. SALTY ) , but it's actually about a man selfishly refusing to father a child who would legally be the heir of his dead brother. And even if we were to ignore that, back then everyone believed that men launched fully formed miniature children into women to grow and be born, whereas modern science recognizes that it is not until conception when a new child is fully formed (they did get the very small part correct).

Shrimp being an abomination? Likely the result of someone's relative dying from a shellfish allergy.

Women being unclean? Bloodborne diseases can spread pretty easily if there isn't modern hygiene, and women bleed every month, meaning those diseases will likely recur during that time.

Tattoos and jewelry? Back then, a symbol of witchcraft and idol worship.

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Other things:

David and Goliath was trial by champion. They were shedding as little blood as possible.

The girl who killed the general? It was a war and to be expected.

A lot of rules are made obvious by simply putting them in historical context.

 

[Gamzee Makara]

The common denouncement of it in the Bible is an incomplete translation, because English doesn't have separate terms for the concept. It's actually criticizing the Ancient Greek practice of pederasty, which was an older man and a young boy being in a sexual relationship.

There are a lot of other misunderstood things in the Bible, like the story of Onan. It's taken as an anti-masturbation rule (@Prof. SALTY ) , but it's actually about a man selfishly refusing to father a child who would legally be the heir of his dead brother. And even if we were to ignore that, back then everyone believed that men launched fully formed miniature children into women to grow and be born, whereas modern science recognizes that it is not until conception when a new child is fully formed (they did get the very small part correct).

Shrimp being an abomination? Likely the result of someone's relative dying from a shellfish allergy.

Women being unclean? Bloodborne diseases can spread pretty easily if there isn't modern hygiene, and women bleed every month, meaning those diseases will likely recur during that time.

Tattoos and jewelry? Back then, a symbol of witchcraft and idol worship.

----------

Other things:

David and Goliath was trial by champion. They were shedding as little blood as possible.

The girl who killed the general? It was a war and to be expected.

A lot of rules are made obvious by simply putting them in historical context.

Are you saying that society should sacrifice rare animals to avoid wrath then, because it is "justified via historical context"? Or that male hetero pedos are perfectly OK by that same logic?
COME ON.

 

[TheWanderingMist]

Are you saying that society should sacrifice rare animals to avoid wrath then, because it is "justified via historical context"? Or that male hetero pedos are perfectly OK by that same logic?
COME ON.

Nice straw men you've built there. Get out of the debate forum and come back with actual points.

 

[Gamzee Makara]

Nice straw men you've built there. Get out of the debate forum and come back with actual points.

Nope, just quoting Biblical precedent from Leviticus regarding disaster "relief" and legal age differences regarding marriage.

Nice try.

Face it:Abrahamic faith texts are full of edits made solely to keep cishet men in power because said men have ALWAYS felt challenged because they are giving in to primitive urges regarding reproduction and food. The Dead Sea Scrolls are evidence of this.

Hatred is driven by primitive urges that need to be resisted to see things clearly. And Abrahamic faiths reek of giving into the lizard part of the brain, causing a fear of the different, because they cannot have sex with or eat anything considered different in their texts' worst parts that are clearly edited to preserve the cishet male power structure of Rome and other aristocrat and bourgeoisie-dominated empires.

 

[Sham]

Nope, just quoting Biblical precedent from Leviticus regarding disaster "relief" and legal age differences regarding marriage.

Nice try.

Face it:Abrahamic faith texts are full of edits made solely to keep cishet men in power because said men have ALWAYS felt challenged because they are giving in to primitive urges regarding reproduction and food. The Dead Sea Scrolls are evidence of this.

Hatred is driven by primitive urges that need to be resisted to see things clearly. And Abrahamic faiths reek of giving into the lizard part of the brain, causing a fear of the different, because they cannot have sex with or eat anything considered different in their texts' worst parts that are clearly edited to preserve the cishet male power structure of Rome and other aristocrat and bourgeoisie-dominated empires.

I wouldn’t say “cis” considering trans people weren’t heard of at that time. I doubt someone wrote the Bible and said “let’s keep people who relate to their sex/gender at birth in power”. This book also speaks and tells stories of women taking charge (Ruth and Hannah for example) and speaks highly of them. Yes some verse (more specifically the OT which modern day Christians don’t observe that much depending on who you speak to) are iffy but nowhere in the Bible does God say “lol trolled men are in charge are everything bow down”. You can’t blame the societal standards of Rome considering most of the book isn’t even based there (especially Islam) nor do their societal standards have that big of an impact. Furthermore you can’t attack a religion for MEN mistranslating it (not that I subscribe to that theory fully) because going by that logic it isn’t the God(s) fault why their religion is used for hate; it’s the people. It seems you more so have a problem with people misusing the Bible than the actual religion itself.

 

[Gamzee Makara]

I wouldn’t say “cis” considering trans people weren’t heard of at that time. I doubt someone wrote the Bible and said “let’s keep people who relate to their sex/gender at birth in power”. This book also speaks and tells stories of women taking charge (Ruth and Hannah for example) and speaks highly of them. Yes some verse (more specifically the OT which modern day Christians don’t observe that much depending on who you speak to) are iffy but nowhere in the Bible does God say “lol trolled men are in charge are everything bow down”. You can’t blame the societal standards of Rome considering most of the book isn’t even based there (especially Islam) nor do their societal standards have that big of an impact. Furthermore you can’t attack a religion for MEN mistranslating it (not that I subscribe to that theory fully) because going by that logic it isn’t the God(s) fault why their religion is used for hate; it’s the people. It seems you more so have a problem with people misusing the Bible than the actual religion itself.

Trans erasure is part of all of this.

Those women were not IN charge, they TOOK charge. And all those lines about women giving birth and raising kids as "their role" rather than governing, and the Eden story being blamed on Eve rather than God for letting the serpent in there in the first place say otherwise. And if women were ALLOWED to tranlsate it without being reduced to doormats and/or nuns and were allowed secular time and thought, it would have been different.

Someone doesn't know about the Dead Sea Scrolls and the recovered Gospel of Mary Magdalene vs. Constantine culturally appropriating Christianity to gain popular approval and points with what was the newest and what should have been another cyclical cult during the populace during wartime under the pretense of winning a victory via a flag with a symbol on it.

Abrahamic faith shares all the blame as one megaconcept.

And if the book allows loopholes that cause issues, than the book and its authors are to blame. Just like The Communist Manifesto by Marx AND Engels and Asimov's Three Laws of Robotics.

All three were written by and are culturally dominated be hypocrites and bullies, also. Marx was a capitalist who cheated Engels of his fair share of earnings from what should have been perceived as their work, and Asimov was a hatemonger towards anyone who didn't fit his atheist utopia.

Remember:Things were always hateful:Only the general public's perception of culturally permissible degrees of such has changed.

 

[bobjr]

Religion at its core is just culture over time, and it’s on the modern versions of them to know what traditions are outdated or inaccurate to leave behind, as they’ve done in the past. The reasons in the past are no excuse for future actions when it comes to things like anti-LGBT actions.

 

[MotostokeOnTrent]

'Here's some interesting ways of potentially contextualising ancient belief to help us better understand why our ancestors devised these bizarre and hateful rules'

'lol, nice try, paedo'

 

[Sham]

Trans erasure is part of all of this.

Those women were not IN charge, they TOOK charge. And all those lines about women giving birth and raising kids as "their role" rather than governing, and the Eden story being blamed on Eve rather than God for letting the serpent in there in the first place say otherwise. And if women were ALLOWED to tranlsate it without being reduced to doormats and/or nuns and were allowed secular time and thought, it would have been different.

Someone doesn't know about the Dead Sea Scrolls and the recovered Gospel of Mary Magdalene vs. Constantine culturally appropriating Christianity to gain popular approval and points with what was the newest and what should have been another cyclical cult during the populace during wartime under the pretense of winning a victory via a flag with a symbol on it.

Abrahamic faith shares all the blame as one megaconcept.

And if the book allows loopholes that cause issues, than the book and its authors are to blame. Just like The Communist Manifesto by Marx AND Engels and Asimov's Three Laws of Robotics.

All three were written by and are culturally dominated be hypocrites and bullies, also. Marx was a capitalist who cheated Engels of his fair share of earnings from what should have been perceived as their work, and Asimov was a hatemonger towards anyone who didn't fit his atheist utopia.

Remember:Things were always hateful:Only the general public's perception of culturally permissible degrees of such has changed.

The Bible has female prophets you do realize that right? You can argue all you want about how religion is used to oppress others but that’s because how men decided to use it. For others it brings hope and guidance. When a shooting happens; do you blame the shooter or the gun for having bullets? Same thing. You can’t critique a religion because of how people are interpreting and using it. You’re also comparing oranges and apples by trying to compare/associate religion with irrelevant stuff like capitalism and Marxism. Also the Bible has very little to say about transgender people because like I said it wasn’t a known thing back then. Do you have a verse proving otherwise? Unless you’re arguing that Christians have a problem with them... which again brings me to my point on how they are INTERPRETING the Bible. Also can we be honest? You take away Christianity and what do you have? Homophobic atheists. If people want to be something... they’re going to be it regardless.

 

[bobjr]

Part of the push to more Trans focused attacks are because after Gay marriage and similar victories, the sky didn't fall and everything kept going as it was, except rights were a little bit more equal. Plus just plain gay marriage runs about 75% approval, and to go against that brings a ton of negative PR. Most trans attacks are from the same groups and use the same playbook, down to being secret pedophiles waiting to molest people in bathrooms.

Right now the biggest push against LGBT rights are from evangelical Christians, and if the members want to reject that they do have to show some kind of actions that show they disagree.

 

[Captain Jigglypuff]

I agree the main problem are the right wing conservative Christians that are the biggest issue when it comes to LGBTQ+ rights. They are afraid of anything or anyone that goes against their own beliefs. They are the reason why the Salem Witch Trials happened and the cause of the Cold War. They were also the reason segregation was legal for so long. They push the Bible as a breeding ground for what is considered to be “appropriate” and yet pick and choose as to what they believe and teach their church members. Bible has some verses about “homosexuality” being a sin? Let’s follow that and force that belief onto others. Bible says eating shrimp and bacon is wrong? Eh. Let’s just ignore that verse and sweep it under the rug where no one else will ever notice. This type of teaching is horribly wrong. No one teaches Trigonometry without addition and subtraction. And you can’t teach spelling if you take out all of the letters that you don’t like from the alphabet.

 

[bobjr]

Fun story pressure on Abortion rights are because of Jerry Falwell and his push to get Segregation back, since he thought that segregation alone wouldn't sell well. Before then among non-Catholics it wasn't seen as a big deal, so we have an example of them getting way worse on an issue.

 

[Sham]

Part of the push to more Trans focused attacks are because after Gay marriage and similar victories, the sky didn't fall and everything kept going as it was, except rights were a little bit more equal. Plus just plain gay marriage runs about 75% approval, and to go against that brings a ton of negative PR. Most trans attacks are from the same groups and use the same playbook, down to being secret pedophiles waiting to molest people in bathrooms.

Right now the biggest push against LGBT rights are from evangelical Christians, and if the members want to reject that they do have to show some kind of actions that show they disagree.

Like I said; people are going to be homophobic/transphobic if they choose to be. If Christianity wasn't a thing.. what would be the next religion in charge? Islam. The same religion where are people are killing members of the LGBTQ community (not all Muslim people think like this of course). And we're not going to go into atheist who are homophobic/transphobic and sexist. Some people use religion as a crutch to already support their hateful beliefs. The argument shouldn't be "let's abolish religion because its outdated and I don't care for it". It should be "everyone should be treated equal regardless of their beliefs". Targeting Christianity as if the religion going away is going to suddenly make homophobia disappear is just intellectually dishonest.

 

[bobjr]

I mean I think religion is an inevitable thing because death is such an unknown some kind of response and reaction to that response will occur. Which is why I'm less get rid of Christianity and more get rid of homophobes using their power to hurt others, a large number of which tend to use religion for that purpose.

 

[Sham]

Of course and I'll be the first to say I don't know for sure if it actually condemn homosexuality (and neither do a lot of Christians) because the words used for being "gay" are words that was created while it was being written. So I'm not against the idea that when someone was translating it; they might have forced a word that was never there. Religion should never used to oppress.

 

[bobjr]

People were gay way before the bible was written, they had words for it. Even in the earliest cradles of human civilization there's evidence. For all the jokes about Ancient Greece that's 500 years before the bible was finished.

My personal guess comes from early Gnostic influence with several higher ups including some apostles just having the idea that "Bodies are gross". You have to make kids somehow, but otherwise why touch each other at all? It's why in the gnostic Book of Judas text Judas is the good guy for killing Jesus because he finally gets Jesus into spirit form instead of being in a stupid body.

 

[Sadib]

I think there's already a topic about this. https://forums.serebii.net/threads/the-tangent-topic-currently-homosexuality-and-religion.566456/

 

[MotostokeOnTrent]

I agree the main problem are the right wing conservative Christians that are the biggest issue when it comes to LGBTQ+ rights. They are afraid of anything or anyone that goes against their own beliefs. They are the cause of the Cold War.

I'd be genuinely interested to hear how you arrive at this conclusion, because I don't see it myself - any analysis can't ignore the role of Russian imperialism.

 

[Captain Jigglypuff]

I'd be genuinely interested to hear how you arrive at this conclusion, because I don't see it myself - Stalin wasn't a right-wing Christian when he annexed half of Europe.

I was referring to Senator Joseph McCarthy and his biased campaign of destroying the lives of hundreds of people who didn’t share his beliefs. He is the one that caused hundreds of people to be blacklisted in Hollywood and forced some to use fake names just so they could continue to work. He drove fear into Americans by his own propaganda and witch hunt trials.

 

[MotostokeOnTrent]

I was referring to Senator Joseph McCarthy and his biased campaign of destroying the lives of hundreds of people who didn’t share his beliefs. He is the one that caused hundreds of people to be blacklisted in Hollywood and forced some to use fake names just so they could continue to work. He drove fear into Americans by his own propaganda and witch hunt trials.

Well ok, that's McCarthyism, but that doesn't really have much to do with the origins of the Cold War.