They've had almost three years and Axew has improved a teensy bit, not counting the Outrage and Giga Impact incidents or its episodes getting lost. People did go very crazy over Dragonite, but it is still very controversial. We were just getting over Ash's 8th badge fiasco, the craze of the PWT, and people complaining Iris was underdeveloped. Then she gets Dragonite. It's pretty understandable going from extremely cold to extremely hot doesn't sit well
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Is it just me or...
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They've had almost three years and Axew has improved a teensy bit, not counting the Outrage and Giga Impact incidents or its episodes getting lost. People did go very crazy over Dragonite, but it is still very controversial. We were just getting over Ash's 8th badge fiasco, the craze of the PWT, and people complaining Iris was underdeveloped. Then she gets Dragonite. It's pretty understandable going from extremely cold to extremely hot doesn't sit well
Pokemaniac24
Banned
They've had almost three years and Axew has improved a teensy bit, not counting the Outrage and Giga Impact incidents or its episodes getting lost. People did go very crazy over Dragonite, but it is still very controversial. We were just getting over Ash's 8th badge fiasco, the craze of the PWT, and people complaining Iris was underdeveloped. Then she gets Dragonite. It's pretty understandable going from extremely cold to extremely hot doesn't sit well
I never got the whole problem with Roxie's gym. People knew at that point that this Ash wasn't at the skill level of his Sinnoh self. Maybe a Johto comparison is more appropriate. I mean look at his battle with Clair for example. If he used his whole Johto team, he would have needed 6 Pokémon to beat Clair. If he called in Snorlax and Charizard for Roxie, he could have won with 3 Pokémon but he didn't. I know this was a problem for people because this is Gen 5 and Clair was Gen 2 but we knew when Ash was going for badge 8 that his skill level wasn't what it was in Sinnoh.
I never got the whole problem with Roxie's gym. People knew at that point that this Ash wasn't at the skill level of his Sinnoh self. Maybe a Johto comparison is more appropriate. I mean look at his battle with Clair for example. If he used his whole Johto team, he would have needed 6 Pokémon to beat Clair. If he called in Snorlax and Charizard for Roxie, he could have won with 3 Pokémon but he didn't. I know this was a problem for people because this is Gen 5 and Clair was Gen 2 but we knew when Ash was going for badge 8 that his skill level wasn't what it was in Sinnoh.
That's the entire point. Ash was terrible and the Roxie battle made it much worse. People also complained about the reserves not showing up...and then they do here and get destroyed.
Also, Ash wasn't entirely bad in Clay's gym, Skyla's gym, and Brycen's gym. Especially Brycen's gym, we saw Scraggy get its first gym win, Pignite's and Krokorok's power, and Ash's creativeness in battle. That gym seemed like a step up and not as bad, but then hindsight kicks in
Pokemaniac24
Banned
That's the entire point. Ash was terrible and the Roxie battle made it much worse. People also complained about the reserves not showing up...and then they do here and get destroyed.
Also, Ash wasn't entirely bad in Clay's gym, Skyla's gym, and Brycen's gym. Especially Brycen's gym, we saw Scraggy get its first gym win, Pignite's and Krokorok's power, and Ash's creativeness in battle. That gym seemed like a step up and not as bad, but then hindsight kicks in
Not that this will change people's minds about Roxie's gym but he still did better than he would have done if he used his entire Johto team against Clair. Kingdra probably would have swept Ash's entire Johto team except Pikachu. With Roxie, some of his Unova Pokémon got some wins.
Not that this will change people's minds about Roxie's gym but he still did better than he would have done if he used his entire Johto team against Clair. Kingdra probably would have swept Ash's entire Johto team except Pikachu. With Roxie, some of his Unova Pokémon got some wins.
That was also three regions ago when Ash was using a new regional team for the first time and relied on his reserves. Since then, Ash had improved greatly in 10 years our time, being able to raise regional teams and not lose confidence(especially in Pikachu) so easily against opponents much tougher than Roxie.
Pignite and Leavanny got a win and a good showing. Boldore, Palpitoad and Unfezant are on the extreme opposite end
Nothing really happened after the league. Honestly sometimes I forget that the league already happened. 3/5 of the rivals were shafted and Ash hasn't even brought up losing the league since he lost so it is kinda forgettable. Maybe they'll toss us a bone and give everyone one last tournament arc to compete in.
Pokemaniac24
Banned
That was also three regions ago when Ash was using a new regional team for the first time and relied on his reserves. Since then, Ash had improved greatly in 10 years our time, being able to raise regional teams and not lose confidence(especially in Pikachu) so easily against opponents much tougher than Roxie.
Pignite and Leavanny got a win and a good showing. Boldore, Palpitoad and Unfezant are on the extreme opposite end
Well, it was already established he wasn't as good as he was in AG and DP since there was a reset so considering his reset, he didn't do horribly against Roxie. He probably would have needed 6 of his Kanto Pokémon to beat 3 of Giovanni's Pokémon and 6 of his Johto Pokémon to beat Clair so I think 8th gyms are tougher in general.
Well, it was already established he wasn't as good as he was in AG and DP since there was a reset so considering his reset, he didn't do horribly against Roxie. He probably would have needed 6 of his Kanto Pokémon to beat 3 of Giovanni's Pokémon and 6 of his Johto Pokémon to beat Clair so I think 8th gyms are tougher in general.
Ash wasn't exactly at his best in the first year of AG or DP either. I'm still annoyed about the Buizel capture episode. The battle against Magikarp wasn't exactly nice either. Yet he still improved. All it takes is a handful of battles, new moves, and a few evolutions. And not having very very bad fails in battle
Roxie was also the second gym in BW2, which made no sense to have her as the "8th gym" when Ash encountered both of the other 8th gym leaders
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Pokemaniac24
Banned
Ash wasn't exactly at his best in the first year of AG or DP either. I'm still annoyed about the Buizel capture episode. The battle against Magikarp wasn't exactly nice either. Yet he still improved. All it takes is a handful of battles, new moves, and a few evolutions. And not having very very bad fails in battle
Roxie was also the second gym in BW2, which made no sense to have her as the "8th gym" when Ash encountered both of the other 8th gym leaders
I have to wonder if people would have complained if Drayden was the 8th Gym Leader instead of Roxie and Ash needed 6 Pokémon to beat 3 of Drayden's.
I have to wonder if people would have complained if Drayden was the 8th Gym Leader instead of Roxie and Ash needed 6 Pokémon to beat 3 of Drayden's.
Probably not as much since the common view is that Dragon types>Poison types and Drayden is viewed as a more powerful trainer then Roxie because of that feel he has.
I have to wonder if people would have complained if Drayden was the 8th Gym Leader instead of Roxie and Ash needed 6 Pokémon to beat 3 of Drayden's.
I would still be unhappy with it. I wouldn't even understand why Drayden would allow that
Both ways sound too forced to me and it feels like they aren't testing the trainers properly
I would still be unhappy with it. I wouldn't even understand why Drayden would allow that
Yeah he seems like someone who would rather test the opponent head on in a even playing field.
I never got the whole problem with Roxie's gym. People knew at that point that this Ash wasn't at the skill level of his Sinnoh self. Maybe a Johto comparison is more appropriate. I mean look at his battle with Clair for example. If he used his whole Johto team, he would have needed 6 Pokémon to beat Clair. If he called in Snorlax and Charizard for Roxie, he could have won with 3 Pokémon but he didn't. I know this was a problem for people because this is Gen 5 and Clair was Gen 2 but we knew when Ash was going for badge 8 that his skill level wasn't what it was in Sinnoh.
The problem is that its extremely bad writing and against Ash's character for him to accept those terms.
He'd want a proper battle and win and he'd know needing double the Pokemon to win (and even then barely) means he is weaker then Roxie. He refused Wattson's badge because Pikachu was supercharged, then only accepted it because Wattson admitted he was the cause of Pokachu being super charged, just like he refused the gift badge from Volkner and demanded a proper battle with Skyla. Ash wants to win his badges fairly, not be given freebies (that was just Kanto, since Johto he earned them all properly). A properly written Ash would have refused the badge and say he'll beat her 3v3 next time and given him a rematch after the Junior Tournament.
Just like it made no sense based on Ash's character that he never challenged Marlon and Drayden.
Well, it was already established he wasn't as good as he was in AG and DP since there was a reset so considering his reset, he didn't do horribly against Roxie. He probably would have needed 6 of his Kanto Pokémon to beat 3 of Giovanni's Pokémon and 6 of his Johto Pokémon to beat Clair so I think 8th gyms are tougher in general.
Him being "reset" makes absolutely no sense, especially considering he's called back Charizard and Dawn showed up. Meaning its pretty clear older saga's still happened and he still has all prior knowledge.
Making him suddenly forget how to battle (like has match with Cameron) nothing more then very poor writing
And yes, he did horribly against Roxie, barely winning with double the Pokemon means he did a very bad job, especially considering she is literally the weakest gym leader in B&W2 (Cheren might be first, but he intentionally uses a weak team), he had 3 Pokemon who got owned and Pikachu and Pignite got to shine again. Thats the same problem as the league. The writers give Pikachu, Pignite and Krookodile all the wins and reduce the remaining 7 Pokemon to fall guys who lose horribly and often quickly.
He was a rookie back in Kanto and Johto (even then Pidgeotto beat Giovanni's Rhydon and Pikachu beat the rest, just because Jesse was using them didn't make them suddenly weaker), so his team being weak by Gym 8 wasn't weird back then since he was still a rookie, but he should know how to fight and train his Pokemon properly by now since he's an experienced veteran at this point, he did so in AG and DP, yet suddenly forgets in BW and reverts back to rookie (including losing badly multiple times to a rookie who just got his first snivy).
In AG he had a proper team of 6 powerful Pokemon by the end, most evolved or at least powerhouses and in DP he had 2 fully evolved starters by the end along with multiple powerhouses
In Unova he started out strong, capturing a lot and evolving a lot, showing improvements and so on, then Roxie showed up and basically owned him (Koffing took down his toughest and then his fastest Pokemon with little effort) and after that except for Krookodile nothing happened to his team, he didn't improve, he didn't learn anything and then we got the worst league ever written in which Ash seemed even less skilled then back in Kanto followed by multiple plots with Team Plasma that didn't even need Ash in them and now he's drifting from island to island with no goal whatsoever while we basically wait for XY.
Written properly and based on the knowledge and experience Ash should have destroyed Trip in every battle, have properly trained and evolved team, beaten Roxie with in a 3v3, fought Drayden, beaten Marlon, destroyed Cameron and won the first Don Battle and Junior Cup. He failed at all these because the writers lowered his skill level for plot purposes or to make others shine.
CyberCubed
Yeah, ok!
Best Wishes was an experiment that backfired. It had SOME improvements over DP but that's only in terms of certain characters.
If the next saga doesn't go back to DP writing, I'd settle for AG-style writing then. AG at least had similar humor to the original series.
If the next saga doesn't go back to DP writing, I'd settle for AG-style writing then. AG at least had similar humor to the original series.
AgentPierce
Mad science FTW!
But we pretty much got all of this anyway, except for the conclusion of Team Rocket's plan and regardless, I don't think it would've met my expectations. I just don't like that BW's flaws are blamed on two banned episodes when it seems evident to me that there were other problems with the saga.
While I don't think BW has nearly as much flaws as the fandom thinks since the fandom mainly hates it because it doesn't do the things they've come to expect of the anime (in other words, they hate change), I definitely agree with you here. Using the TR vs. TP two-parter getting pulled as a scapegoat for everything is dumb, especially since fans were whining about BW even before that disaster happened! Let's face it: BW couldn't have gone in any other direction that would have pleased fans except the AG/DP direction.
I wonder if Best Wishes would have been better received if it had Hilda as the lead doing Musicals or some sort.
And this just proves exactly what I've been saying. This fandom needs to grow up and accept that things can change sometimes. Not every female lead need be a girly-girl idol.
Best Wishes was an experiment that backfired.
If so, it only backfired because the fandom didn't want the experiment to start with.
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Pokemaniac24
Banned
The problem is that its extremely bad writing and against Ash's character for him to accept those terms.
He'd want a proper battle and win and he'd know needing double the Pokemon to win (and even then barely) means he is weaker then Roxie. He refused Wattson's badge because Pikachu was supercharged, then only accepted it because Wattson admitted he was the cause of Pokachu being super charged, just like he refused the gift badge from Volkner and demanded a proper battle with Skyla. Ash wants to win his badges fairly, not be given freebies (that was just Kanto, since Johto he earned them all properly). A properly written Ash would have refused the badge and say he'll beat her 3v3 next time and given him a rematch after the Junior Tournament.
Just like it made no sense based on Ash's character that he never challenged Marlon and Drayden.
Him being "reset" makes absolutely no sense, especially considering he's called back Charizard and Dawn showed up. Meaning its pretty clear older saga's still happened and he still has all prior knowledge.
Making him suddenly forget how to battle (like has match with Cameron) nothing more then very poor writing
And yes, he did horribly against Roxie, barely winning with double the Pokemon means he did a very bad job, especially considering she is literally the weakest gym leader in B&W2 (Cheren might be first, but he intentionally uses a weak team), he had 3 Pokemon who got owned and Pikachu and Pignite got to shine again. Thats the same problem as the league. The writers give Pikachu, Pignite and Krookodile all the wins and reduce the remaining 7 Pokemon to fall guys who lose horribly and often quickly.
He was a rookie back in Kanto and Johto (even then Pidgeotto beat Giovanni's Rhydon and Pikachu beat the rest, just because Jesse was using them didn't make them suddenly weaker), so his team being weak by Gym 8 wasn't weird back then since he was still a rookie, but he should know how to fight and train his Pokemon properly by now since he's an experienced veteran at this point, he did so in AG and DP, yet suddenly forgets in BW and reverts back to rookie (including losing badly multiple times to a rookie who just got his first snivy).
In AG he had a proper team of 6 powerful Pokemon by the end, most evolved or at least powerhouses and in DP he had 2 fully evolved starters by the end along with multiple powerhouses
In Unova he started out strong, capturing a lot and evolving a lot, showing improvements and so on, then Roxie showed up and basically owned him (Koffing took down his toughest and then his fastest Pokemon with little effort) and after that except for Krookodile nothing happened to his team, he didn't improve, he didn't learn anything and then we got the worst league ever written in which Ash seemed even less skilled then back in Kanto followed by multiple plots with Team Plasma that didn't even need Ash in them and now he's drifting from island to island with no goal whatsoever while we basically wait for XY.
Written properly and based on the knowledge and experience Ash should have destroyed Trip in every battle, have properly trained and evolved team, beaten Roxie with in a 3v3, fought Drayden, beaten Marlon, destroyed Cameron and won the first Don Battle and Junior Cup. He failed at all these because the writers lowered his skill level for plot purposes or to make others shine.
People may start to throw things at me for saying this but I actually think Kanto Ash could have beaten Unova Ash in a battle whether or not Kanto Ash had an obedient Charizard or not.....
Alfred the Second
Dracoflare
While I don't think BW has nearly as much flaws as the fandom thinks since the fandom mainly hates it because it doesn't do the things they've come to expect of the anime (in other words, they hate change), I definitely agree with you here. Using the TR vs. TP two-parter getting pulled as a scapegoat for everything is dumb, especially since fans were whining about BW even before that disaster happened! Let's face it: BW couldn't have gone in any other direction that would have pleased fans except the AG/DP direction.
And this just proves exactly what I've been saying. This fandom needs to grow up and accept that things can change sometimes. Not every female lead need be a girly-girl idol.
If so, it only backfired because the fandom didn't want the experiment to start with.
I think you have the wrong opinion about fandom. Idk about what the whole fandom thinks, but the people I know in these forums (who happen to be regular posters) liked Best Wishes at the beginning. The experiments Best Wishes had done, the break the mold stuff Best Wishes was very well received by the people here. I am not sure where you have gotten the idea that people dislike Best Wishes because it is different from the usual Anime formula, you are wrong. People actually preferred the fast paced saga, the Pokemon rotation method etc. etc.
What people hated were these:
1) Ash not being shown to be as competent as he was shown in earlier sagas, undergoing the same character development he did way back in OS, as if to say that the events of the past four sagas didn't happen.
2) The Pokemon League: The battle with Cameron comes to mind.
3) The lack of a proper battle related goal after the Unova League. There was no single decent battle since the league sadly.
So, I just wanted to clarify that your opinion on the fandom is wrong. People never complained the new trend Best Wishes has given us. Most of us enjoyed the absence of TR appearing in every damn episode to blast off.
So you are wrong if you think the fandom didn't like the experimental trends of Best Wishes.
People may start to throw things at me for saying this but I actually think Kanto Ash could have beaten Unova Ash in a battle whether or not Kanto Ash had an obedient Charizard or not.....
Not really unless Unova ash decides to "make things even" by only using Pikachu and the starters. Krookodile alone could have sweeped kanto ash.
Pokemaniac24
Banned
Not really unless Unova ash decides to "make things even" by only using Pikachu and the starters. Krookodile alone could have sweeped kanto ash.
You think? I would think Kingler and Muk could have given Krookodile a tough time.
You think? I would think Kingler and Muk could have given Krookodile a tough time.
Muk is weak to Ground
Krookodile could out manuvere Kingler unless its underwater.
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