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Is it safe to say Heracross and Donphan are Ash's strongest Johto Pokemon?

whataffah

Well-Known Member
No, it isn't safe. Heracross and Donphan are strong, but the others are strong aswell. All Johto pokemon got attention, although it wasn't in the same saga. Donphan showed his power after Johto.

Bayleef is really strong with direct attack, like Body Slam. She couldn't show her real power, cause the only gyms she entered were the 1st and 2nd, and both in advantage of the gymleader.

Cyndaquil was the baby in Johto, but after evolving all his moves were improved.

Totodile is strong, but needs the time to show it.

Noctowl is, IMO, not counting Pidgeot, Ash's best regional bird, cause of his special attacks. It isn't used for physical attacks only, but knows also moves like Extrasensory.
 

Kotone

Well-Known Member
Here we go:

Scyther
Nidorina
Clefairy (Technically)
Gastly
Steelix
Dewgong

Now someone list me Charizard's Kanto and OI Gym wins. Heck, give me Torkoal and Infernape's just for the heck of it.
Well I like Cyndaquil but it'd be wrong to ask for Charizards here because in Kanto he wasn't even listening to him till the mid of orange islands (which usualy was a better suited competition for quick and agile pokemon.) Someone might aswell backfire that question and ask "how many wins did cyndaquil get in a league match?" I'm sure you'll still get it wrong os let me tell you again , I absolutly adore cyndaquil/quilava.
 

Nightlingbolt

AKA Nightlingbolt
Is it safe to say you're complaining about the Johto team being mistreated yet again, in spite of Cyndaquil's evolution and Noctowl's new moveset, not to mention Bayleef having been in another important League before? Yes, I think it is.
 

Pepsi_Plunge

Dojyaaa~~aan
Is it safe to say you're complaining about the Johto team being mistreated yet again, in spite of Cyndaquil's evolution and Noctowl's new moveset, not to mention Bayleef having been in another important League before? Yes, I think it is.
Do i have to say it again? seriously my wall of text served for nothing?(i know you didnt read it but wtv).

Hes not complaining hes moking Johto starters fans, he couldnt care less about the johto starters.
 
Apparently the writers couldn't care less about Ash's Johto starters either, which is why Bayleef and Totodile got no league battle, and Quilavas match was 30 seconds.

The writers clearly favor Ash's Hoenn team.
 

freedomrise

Well-Known Member
It's difficult to say whether the Johto starters are weak or not at this point in the show. Since we have seen that Ash's previous pokemons have gotten stronger since he last used them. It is possible that they did as well, and we just don't know to what extent.

Donphan was powerful and came in useufl in battle frontier, but it didn't really get the opportunity to shine in the Sinnoh league, it didn't do much to Shuckle and was knocked out rather quickly. Whilst Noctowl managed to hold on after a few hard hits. So, it really depends on which pokemon the writers decide to emphasise in the battles, if they want, they can even make Ash's Totodile beat Darkrai.
 

Locormus

Can we please get the older, old forum back?
Noctowl falls a bit short, considering it took, like, one hit and went down, in it's league battle. Sucky defense, strong offence.
Noctowl is a beast.. and you're wrong. I Don't know what battle you had been watching, but it was struck to the ground two times, twice by Power Trick Shuckle. It got back up both times and continued to battle and beat Lickilicky.. Then it got lucky shotted in the back by Dusknoir's Thunderpunch. Same thing would've happened if any other pokemon would've been punched from the back into the ground. You can't say that Noctowl has sucky defences when it already got back up again twice from high powered attacks and falling to the ground.

Yes, because dancing and biting its way to victory about three times compares to Cyndaquil's overall win streak of ~15+.
15+...

Here we go:

Scyther
Nidorina
Clefairy (Technically)
Gastly
Steelix
Dewgong
Looks like somebody overestimated Cyndaquil! xD Anyway, Torkoal has a grand total number of wins adding up to three, so yeah, no doubt that it's at least on equal footing. I don't doubt however that Quilava would be able to do just as well against Registeel though, especially with moves like Eruption.

No, it isn't safe. Heracross and Donphan are strong, but the others are strong aswell. All Johto pokemon got attention, although it wasn't in the same saga. Donphan showed his power after Johto.

Bayleef is really strong with direct attack, like Body Slam. She couldn't show her real power, cause the only gyms she entered were the 1st and 2nd, and both in advantage of the gymleader.

Cyndaquil was the baby in Johto, but after evolving all his moves were improved.

Totodile is strong, but needs the time to show it.

Noctowl is, IMO, not counting Pidgeot, Ash's best regional bird, cause of his special attacks. It isn't used for physical attacks only, but knows also moves like Extrasensory.
It isn't safe, indeed, and in the case of Bayleef and Totodile, it isn't even fair. Noctowl, Quilava, Donphan and Heracross got updated, and can now be seen as very respectable and able pokemon.

Bayleef was good in Johto, no doubt one of his better Johto pokemon. You made a small miscalculation however, Bayleef entered the fight against Falkner, Bugsy, but most notably, Chuck, where it took down both his pokemon. Where it basically won in a tug of war with a Machoke.

Cyndaquil was the baby in Johto until Phanpy arrived, but statistically it was Ash' best pokemon in Johto. That being said, it wasn't no push over either. It took four turns of Whitney's Miltanks Rollout before it finally fainted. That's a move it is weak against, and which gets stronger each turn, while already being used by what's probably the most feared gym pokemon in the history of Pokemon.

Noctowl did great when it got used most of the time. It's only gymbattles were in Morty's gym, in which it did extremely well. Then we have its fight against Steelix, which made it seem weak, but it still stayed in after a Sandstorm/Dig combo from the Steel snake before it fainted due to Iron Tail. Keep in mind that Steelix was portrayed as an almight beast with no comparison in Johto. In its battle against Conway it showed it can take a hard hit or two, and still dish out with new found strength.

This thread isn't fair to Totodile because it hasn't had a chance to redeem itself yet. Bayleef doesn't need the retribution as much, since when it did win, it was fairly impressive.

In my opinion, the Johto team is respectable, and able to win its battles without the need of Kanto helping out anymore. Sure Totodile hasn't had that chance of retribution or anything, but if it is the sixth slot on Ash's team against Darkrai then there will be nothing holding me back that Johto is fully retributed, because Totodile would without a doubt show up with three new powerful moves.

Without a doubt, Quilava, Heracross, Noctowl, Bayleef and Donphan are all on the same level of strength, and Totodile wouldn't be far behind if he does well against Darkrai. In any case, I doubt they would be upstaged by Hoenn by the amount Cyber thinks they would be. I think Johto's strength all around is comparable to Swellow's and Corphish's strength. It just doesn't have a single powerhouse that stands out like Sceptile or Infernape. They're just all strong, and with a team effort they could bring Hoenn down a peg.

Edit@Cyber: The writers don't favour the Hoenn team, the Hoenn team got zero wins in this league, while the Johto team has three. The Hoenn pokemon are going to get knocked out against Darkrai no matter how you slice it, I can't see how you can be so stubborn to believe that after the events of this league you still think that they favoured the Hoenn pokemon over the Johto pokemon. Just look at how many Johto and Hoenn pokemon appeared (not counting stills) in DP182:

Johto: Cyndaquil, Bayleef, Totodile.
Hoenn: Corphish

Then look at the number of wins Johto has compared to Hoenn:

Johto: Heracross, Quilava, Noctowl.
Hoenn: Zip, nada, nothing.

Where's Sceptile's win? Oh that's right! It's getting crippled by Darkrai! Where is Blaziken in all this? It's current situation is unknown! What happened to Marshtomp? I guess the writers do favour the Hoenn starters over the Johto starters...
 
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GaZsTiC

Alternating
If I had to say who was Ash's strongest Johto Pokemon then I would have to go fro Heracross with Donphan as a close second.

However, Quilava is certainly strong, as is Noctowl. And Bayleef and Totodile have not been able to showcase much strength so it isn't a fair vote.
 

firestar319

The Marauder
Apparently the writers couldn't care less about Ash's Johto starters either, which is why Bayleef and Totodile got no league battle, and Quilavas match was 30 seconds.

The writers clearly favor Ash's Hoenn team.
Personally if the writers didn't care for Ash's Johto team, then none of them would've been shown at the Sinnoh League in the first place.
 

Thriller

Its almost time
ITT: Cyber continuing his tirade of how the Johto Starters are "weak" and will "Never get redemption."

Honestly though, this is kind of unfair. Cyber, when will you learn the Johto starters weren't treated bad because the writers didn't care for them, but rather they were mistreated because the writers messed up by not getting rid of the Kanto Starters sooner?

Cyber said:
The writers clearly favor Ash's Hoenn team.
Yeah, which is why none of its representatives got into a battle until what's likely the very last one.
 

Silver_Seoul

Well-Known Member
I love how the writers are making their favorite team lose, while their least favorite team is getting three wins and basically starring this league. :rolleyes:
 

Poke Master 7

Boulder Trainer
I love how the writers are making their favorite team lose, while their least favorite team is getting three wins and basically starring this league. :rolleyes:
Yea isn't it amazing? I mean Kanto, Johto and Sinnoh all scored Ash his wins in the league (yes the Snorlax cameo still counts), yet the 1 battle the Hoenn team appears in is the designated losing one. Amazing how being the favorite puts you in a losing battle for your only battle. All the teams but Hoenn get to go home with a win under their belts.
 

Hikari Paradise

Forever Alone
Heracross, of course but donphan not so much. After it's failure against likilicky I can't really say for sure.
 

Sayho1234

Well-Known Member
Haven't you guys learned anything watching this anime over the years? Ash truly has no weak (or strong) pokemon at all whatsoever due to the power of plot on his side.

The writers can change up the power levels of the pokemon whenever they feel like it. They can make Ash's strongest & most experienced pokemon, Pikachu, lose to weak pokemon or in 1st gym matches at the beginning of every new saga. Or they could make a weak pokemon who Ash hasn't trained at all like Krabby (who if game levels were incorporated into the anime would at least be on lvl.13) not only win against highly experienced pokemon in the Indigo League, but also to add insult to injury get flawless victories in the process while doing so.
 

freedomrise

Well-Known Member
The writers can change up the power levels of the pokemon whenever they feel like it. They can make Ash's strongest & most experienced pokemon, Pikachu, lose to weak pokemon or in 1st gym matches at the beginning of every new saga. Or they could make a weak pokemon who Ash hasn't trained at all like Krabby (who if game levels were incorporated into the anime would at least be on lvl.13) not only win against highly experienced pokemon in the Indigo League, but also to add insult to injury get flawless victories in the process while doing so.
Well, although I generally agree with you about Pikachu and Ash's other strong pokemons getting down-powered frequently, especially at the start of a new region. But, losing in the 1st gym match point is not exactly valid. It depends on where someone starts the journey in the anime, as they don't all start at the same place. For example, someone could be from Sunyshore city. Then in that case, that would make sense to challenge the gym there first, but obviously, if the gym leader there is too strong, he/she may lose and move to a different one etc, until they find one they can beat.
 

Sayho1234

Well-Known Member
But, losing in the 1st gym match point is not exactly valid. It depends on where someone starts the journey in the anime, as they don't all start at the same place. For example, someone could be from Sunyshore city. Then in that case, that would make sense to challenge the gym there first, but obviously, if the gym leader there is too strong, he/she may lose and move to a different one etc, until they find one they can beat.
Bull! The very 1st gym in every region is always located somewhere near where beginning trainers get one of the 3 starter pokemon. They wouldn't have a gym nearby the town where you get your first pokemon, where all of the gym leaders pokemon are on extremely high levels. It wouldn't be fair to the beginning trainers at all. Therefore my point is still valid.
 

streetlightdsb

Uni hiatus
Wow, Cyber really has shown his Hoenn fanboy tendencies in the last few days.

Haven't you guys learned anything watching this anime over the years? Ash truly has no weak (or strong) pokemon at all whatsoever due to the power of plot on his side.

The writers can change up the power levels of the pokemon whenever they feel like it. They can make Ash's strongest & most experienced pokemon, Pikachu, lose to weak pokemon or in 1st gym matches at the beginning of every new saga. Or they could make a weak pokemon who Ash hasn't trained at all like Krabby (who if game levels were incorporated into the anime would at least be on lvl.13) not only win against highly experienced pokemon in the Indigo League, but also to add insult to injury get flawless victories in the process while doing so.
True dat bro :D
 

Bedouin Pirate

Gypsy Punk
Actually, the writers would have been told to use the Johto Pokemon as a way to promote the games.

I think Cyber's right - the writers really like the Hoenn team.
I dunno, I think the Kanto and Sinnoh teams are more favoured. Kanto is the classic team that's been around the longest, and they still get used from time to time. And either through better writing, or through a like of the Pokemon themselves, Sinnoh's team seems to have had a lot of development, in all areas (evolution, ability, character etc).

Obviously it's hard to say and is merely speculative, but I think in 10 or so years, when Gen 6 is drawing to a close, we're more likely to see the Sinnoh and Kanto Pokemon than either the Johto or Hoenn teams (with the possibility of Sceptile being the exception, what with it being a fully evolved starter).
 
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