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Is our Protagonist too weak?

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LizardonX

Banned
i disagree, especially with the hydreigon, samurott and the lucario. (and against a oshawott, snivy etc). Now that I think about it, if Satoshi could beat a darkrai with a sceptile and have his pikachu tie with a latios... then i don't think he's too weak at all.
He could have beaten him, just not with the team he picked.
He beat a Metagross owned by an older more competent trainer two series ago with Swellow, Grovyle, and Pikachu. Boldore and Pignite should have been more than enough.

As for Samurott and Lucario...Pikachu beat Samurott with barely any trouble. And Lucario was absolute bull. Riolu should not be KOing fully evolved Normal/Flying types and yet getting beaten terribly by Snivy

Uggh. Hoenn was so cheap with the environmental DEM.
 

Haunter ゴースト

Well-Known Member
Agreed. It would be cool if even after all this time Ash shows some progress, but still has to learn after all this time. I mean, a person can always to learn new stuff. So even if they temporarily "overpower" him at the beginning of the new series, I don't think that thing is necessarily bad.

And no, with that I don't mean "Ash must beat everything in his path". Just... keep him more consistent.

No, he's just as he should be. No one wants a protagonist who's badass and completely unbeatable.

I'd like to point out that Tyson from the OS of Beyblade was shown as very powerful, yet the writers still managed to maintain his strength and made him look weak at times.

The same could be done with Ash but unfortunately it isn't.
 

TheFonz

Pokemon Semi-Master
He could have beaten him, just not with the team he picked.


Uggh. Hoenn was so cheap with the environmental DEM.

Except it wasn't environmental DEM. It was the anime version of critical hits. Weak spot

But anything with Swellow is DEM to you apparently
 

LizardonX

Banned
Except it wasn't environmental DEM. It was the anime version of critical hits. Weak spot

But anything with Swellow is DEM to you apparently
Oh really like breaking something's head open oh so conviniently after steamrollering half of tyson's team to give Ash the win doesnt smell fishy to you?

Because it looked like they were just powering up ash like that because there was no way he could have won legitimately
 

TheFonz

Pokemon Semi-Master
Oh really like breaking something's head open oh so conviniently after steamrollering half of tyson's team to give Ash the win doesnt smell fishy to you?

A Hariyama which it KOd with no problem, and Donphan. Then it gets a Peck in and gets immediately trashed by Metagross. He didn't win because of how he used his team. Torkoal could have been saved to cause less of a pain to Pikachu who then could have beaten Meowth no problem
 

LizardonX

Banned
A Hariyama which it KOd with no problem, and Donphan. Then it gets a Peck in and gets immediately trashed by Metagross. He didn't win because of how he used his team. Torkoal could have been saved to cause less of a pain to Pikachu who then could have beaten Meowth no problem

It was a cheap plot device that gave Ash a win he had no business winning.

And yes his pokemon arent strong so he had to rely on plot armor to win major battles.
 

TheFonz

Pokemon Semi-Master
It was a cheap plot device that gave Ash a win he had no business winning.

And yes his pokemon arent strong so he had to rely on plot armor to win major battles.

Critical hits aren't plot device. Even in real life if you hit someone in the same spot over and over, it will hurt more. That was strategy
 

LizardonX

Banned
Critical hits aren't plot device. Even in real life if you hit someone in the same spot over and over, it will hurt more. That was strategy

It was not a critical hit. It was a desperate ploy the writers undergone when they gave tyson a metagross then went holy **** how are we supposed to have ash beat that without reserves?
 

TheFonz

Pokemon Semi-Master
It was not a critical hit. It was a desperate ploy the writers undergone when they gave tyson a metagross then went holy **** how are we supposed to have ash beat that without reserves?

A critical hit is hitting the weakspot. That's why it hurt Metagross more
 
He could have beaten him, just not with the team he picked.

That was pretty much that I meant. If Satoshi had a different team or at least evolved (can't believe I am going there) some of his pokemon (like oshawott for example) then he would be able to win.

And Lucario was absolute bull. Riolu should not be KOing fully evolved Normal/Flying types and yet getting beaten terribly by Snivy
that was one thing that turned me off about the anime, unfortunately.

but then again, you don't need a serious personality to be a strong trainer.
 

knux-the-killer

Well-Known Member
I like the see that derp losing. However I do not like to see him without any character development at all.
 

Scrimbird

Ace Trainer
Well, what would be cool is if they'd make Ash strong, but make the other trainers even stronger. Like, Ash could be able to beat the kids of his age (Kotetsu, Trip, etc), but he would enter tournaments with much more older and experienced trainers. Also, the gym leaders could use better strategies, like more tag battles and all that stuff. Instead of losing against people like Trip, he could have a rival who is like a 20 years old, who's using all kind of badass strategies like counter shield and all. It would force Ash to use even more tactics than what he do with his normal battles. That would be great.
 

LizardonX

Banned
A critical hit is hitting the weakspot. That's why it hurt Metagross more
That might be what a critical hit would be IRL but not for Pokemon.
Well, what would be cool is if they'd make Ash strong, but make the other trainers even stronger. Like, Ash could be able to beat the kids of his age (Kotetsu, Trip, etc), but he would enter tournaments with much more older and experienced trainers. Also, the gym leaders could use better strategies, like more tag battles and all that stuff. Instead of losing against people like Trip, he could have a rival who is like a 20 years old, who's using all kind of badass strategies like counter shield and all. It would force Ash to use even more tactics than what he do with his normal battles. That would be great.

Too much work I guess
 

matt0044

Well-Known Member
And a show without an underdog protagonist is lame.

No, he's just as he should be. No one wants a protagonist who's badass and completely unbeatable.

I think Toriko, Goku, Kenshiro and others would like to have a word with you. And even then, they struggle to earn their victories. I hate this notion that a badass, smart main character from the get-go is inherently bad. Like most things, it depends on the writing.

And while a underdog character isn't bad, it's their development and growth that makes them truly good where we see them go from "fair" to "great." Sadly with Ash, it's not handled very well as others have point out. And don't get me started on BW...
 
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Graham Aker

Well-Known Member
And while a underdog character isn't bad, it's their development and growth that makes them truly good where we see them go from "fair" to "great." Sadly with Ash, it's not handled very well as others have point out. And don't get me started on BW...

That's why the writers should just get rid of him. If the writers really aren't interested in advancing or developing him anymore, just write him off.
 

Haunter ゴースト

Well-Known Member
That's why the writers should just get rid of him. If the writers really aren't interested in advancing or developing him anymore, just write him off.

Writing Ash off does no justice either.

They'll only do the exact same with a new protagonist. Why scrap a character who's been a symbol of the anime with a tonne of development for 16+ years?
 

Graham Aker

Well-Known Member
They'll only do the exact same with a new protagonist. Why scrap a character who's been a symbol of the anime with a tonne of development for 16+ years?

Pikachu is far more of an icon than Ash is. You could easily give another trainer a Pikachu, it's not like Pikachu has much personality anymore anyway.

If you're not interested in developing a character anymore, and are just going to have them fluctuate wildly in competence because of how long they've been around...it's better to write them off, and have cameo's or appearance every now and then. At least with a new protagonist, we'd know we're actually following a NEW trainer.
 
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Haunter ゴースト

Well-Known Member
Pikachu is far more of an icon than Ash is.

Pikachu is an icon of the game franchise aswell remember.

As far as the anime is concerned, Ash is just as important as Pikachu.

If you're not interested in developing a character anymore, and are just going to have them fluctuate widly in competence because of how long they've been around...it's better to write them off, and have cameo's or appearance every now and then. At least with a new protagonist, we'd know we're actually following a NEW trainer.

I don't believe in this logic, since the same fate is likely to happen once again with the same writers.
 

Takaru

Werk, Werk, Werk
A nice balance would be neat. BW was just an insane amount of losing for him. While in AG he seemed to have a very good idea of how to battle and how to do this and that, and then got pegged down but got back up since he learned something.

I don't think people want Ash to win everything, but I mean some consistency would be nice. You know he got asked to be a Frontier Brain, then suddenly he goes to Isshu and all strategy was wiped clean. Some points it just gets ridiculousness how the writers treat him.
 
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