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Is Paul a champion level trainer?

Is Paul champion tier?

  • Yes, he is.

    Votes: 20 44.4%
  • No, he isn't.

    Votes: 4 8.9%
  • He is a solid E4 level.

    Votes: 19 42.2%
  • He is not E4 level either but he is close to it.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • None of the above

    Votes: 2 4.4%

  • Total voters
    45
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Kuzehiko

That moment I found a lifetime treasure
I'm pretty sure his Electivire was left out of the training battle for a reason,they didn't want a repeat of their first battle which ended in a draw or Paul coming out the victor.
Let's not forget that Lucario and Gengar needed to learn a new move to defeat Paul's Pokemon. Lucario might've defeated Gyarados without Bullet Punch but Gengar definitely needed Will-O-Wisp to defeat Metagross.
 

Sham

The Guardian of Ruin and Birth
So fitting, so based. Iris stans definitely won more than any other companion
Maybe we did a little a lot of bit. Anyways I'm bored of humble bragging. Wanna talk about something interesting? Would Gladion be PWC material or Masters Eight Material if he wasn't chasing Mohn. If you ask me he'd wreck Paul and Alain being the eighth spot
in other words continuing to lie that you truly care for her, got it.
Take your complaints to TPC and OLM, I don't write the show and didn't ask for your input ty <3
She’ll be back for the Unova remakes soon enough.
We can only hope
 

Almighty Zard

He has returned.
Take your complaints to TPC and OLM, I don't write the show and didn't ask for your input ty <3

If I was as much of a fan as you say, i wouldn't be happy with just "Bronze" rather than the "Gold" she should've had.
We can only hope

Indeed, with Alder back as champion, since Iris doesn't need it.


Let's not forget that Lucario and Gengar needed to learn a new move to defeat Paul's Pokemon. Lucario might've defeated Gyarados without Bullet Punch but Gengar definitely needed Will-O-Wisp to defeat Metagross.

still lucario pulling that off is impressive.
 
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SerGoldenhandtheJust

Deluded Dreamer
Maybe her f/sans won, but she sure didn't.

If anything giving her the title of champion was an embarrassment of a move, since she sure could not showcase the weight of it, Ash beating her with her own element doesn't help either.

There are very few times in the show where someone getting close to winning but not doing so can impress, her fight with Cynthia wasn't one of them, all it did was continue to make her Dragonite a joke, and destroy Excadril's credibility due to needing a OHKO move to knock out Cynthia's Gastrodon, for a pokemon with 100 wins it shouldn't need such an attack, only her Haxorus stood out and in the end even it was clearly outclassed by Cynthia's Garchomp.



in other words continuing to lie that you truly care for her, got it.
You sound like such a broken record at this point
" Continuing to lie that you truly care for her, got it" What?
A token victory for Iris doesn't really require Iris to win at this point lmao. It's telling you're salty she lost to the literal world champion and like the woman people considered Leon before Leon. Idc what your opinion of the battle is, but she most definitely didn't easily lose to Cynthia but put up one heck of a fight
Maybe we did a little a lot of bit. Anyways I'm bored of humble bragging. Wanna talk about something interesting? Would Gladion be PWC material or Masters Eight Material if he wasn't chasing Mohn. If you ask me he'd wreck Paul and Alain being the eighth spot

Take your complaints to TPC and OLM, I don't write the show and didn't ask for your input ty <3

We can only hope
Gladion easily has potential, he's always been smartly skilled and his team is PACKED. Silvally, broken Lycanroc, Zoroark, Umbreon, now a Nihilego too that needs more training
He can easily become a top contender for sure
 

Almighty Zard

He has returned.
You sound like such a broken record at this point
" Continuing to lie that you truly care for her, got it" What?
A token victory for Iris doesn't really require Iris to win at this point lmao. It's telling you're salty she lost to the literal world champion and like the woman people considered Leon before Leon. Idc what your opinion of the battle is, but she most definitely didn't easily lose to Cynthia but put up one heck of a fight

The title of champion is not something to be taken lightly on any account, Iris never truly showed she could handle the weight of it, if anything it made her look more like a martyr, not just to Cynthia but also to Ash, who beat her at her own element (kind of a shame he can't seem to do that against Misty), and she was the first regional champion he took down as a result.

The point that i've been trying to make is, if one truly cared about Iris being champion, you'd want to see her do something impressive on screen that's worthy of the champion title, but we never got that, Haxorus's showing against Cynthia's Garchomp doesn't cut it, we need to see her actually win with her talents, not come up short in one of 2 battles that she ultimately lost, because everyone else in the masters 8 had moments that showed they were worthy of being champion outside of this tournament setting, Iris never got that.

I'm not as hardcore of a fan of hers as others are, but even I didn't like how the writers treated her in JN's, she did not need to become champion in order to reach her anime goal, just because she did in the games doesn't mean it needs to be the same in the anime, and I felt she was fine in BW, she never annoyed me.

If someone who says they are a fan of her, doesn't care about how she's treated, it's gonna make me question why, but if you want me to stop then I will.
 

SerGoldenhandtheJust

Deluded Dreamer
The title of champion is not something to be taken lightly on any account, Iris never truly showed she could handle the weight of it, if anything it made her look more like a martyr, not just to Cynthia but also to Ash, who beat her at her own element (kind of a shame he can't seem to do that against Misty), and she was the first regional champion he took down as a result.

The point that i've been trying to make is, if one truly cared about Iris being champion, you'd want to see her do something impressive on screen that's worthy of the champion title, but we never got that, Haxorus's showing against Cynthia's Garchomp doesn't cut it, we need to see her actually win with her talents, not come up short in one of 2 battles that she ultimately lost, because everyone else in the masters 8 had moments that showed they were worthy of being champion outside of this tournament setting, Iris never got that.

I'm not as hardcore of a fan of hers as others are, but even I didn't like how the writers treated her in JN's, she did not need to become champion in order to reach her anime goal, just because she did in the games doesn't mean it needs to be the same in the anime, and I felt she was fine in BW, she never annoyed me.

If someone who says they are a fan of her, doesn't care about how she's treated, it's gonna make me question why, but if you want me to stop then I will.
You need to stop shoving your personal POV on others when you're asking why "fans of her would be okay with this treatment"
Sure her getting more screentime to do more badass stuff would have been great but you need to realise a lot of the people won't view it as the same way as you do, including the writers who don't hate Iris and did what they did out of love for her
Her doing good against Cynthia and evolving Haxorus full way is enough personally for me to see her as the Champion and we already seen a series full of her growth in BW
 

PokemonBattleFanatic-

Well-Known Member
Wish we saw more of Paul's Nidoking. IIRC, it was the only one of his Pokemon to push back against one of Brandon's Pokemon before going down.
Yeah it landed Earth Power,Double Kick and Thunderbolt on Registeel,but went down in 2 attacks which was the same result with Ash's Torkoal. The only difference is Torkoal dodged Regi's attacks while none of Paul's pokemon including Nidoking ever dodged.
 

Almighty Zard

He has returned.
Yeah it landed Earth Power,Double Kick and Thunderbolt on Registeel,but went down in 2 attacks which was the same result with Ash's Torkoal. The only difference is Torkoal dodged Regi's attacks while none of Paul's pokemon including Nidoking ever dodge

Come to think of it, how often did Paul employ the concept of dodging? Alot of times he had his pokemon take blows or use moves like protect.
 

PokemonBattleFanatic-

Well-Known Member
Come to think of it, how often did Paul employ the concept of dodging? Alot of times he had his pokemon take blows or use moves like protect.
Just off my memory he only used it when he still had Chimchar and when he used Honchkrow at a Pokeringer. Out of all the times he's battled on screen he very rarely commanded his pokemon to dodge,he either attacks,takes the hit,block,counter-attacks or use a defensive move. He did a lot of counter-attacking at the Lake Acuity battle.
 
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Leonhart

Imagineer
I don't view him in that manner. At most he's Four Heavenly Kings [Elite Four] level on a good day if he were using his best Pokemon, but that's about as much as he could hope for.
 

SerGoldenhandtheJust

Deluded Dreamer
Not to mention putting alain and raihan in between champion tier and e4 when both of them are champion tier easily.
Yeah with Alain I honestly agree
But Raihan and by extension Flint not being in the Masters 8 anymore kind of implies me to they aren't at that level any longer to deal with champions the way these 8 are
Like I'm sure they can still give a good battle, but not at the level these 8 are
 

Blastmaster

Well-Known Member
I just want to point out that Paul didn't say Ash couldn't beat the M8 for struggling against him. He said Ash wouldn't win the tournament for struggling against him. A tournament where the #1 seed is blatantly depicted as far, far superior to the others. Ash beating one M8 member is a very, very different feat from defeating three in a row.

Not that I get why some of you cling to that quote so hard when it ended up objectively not being true. Because Ash was struggling against Paul, and he did win the tournament anyway. So clearly something's not 100% accurate about a one-off taunt from one of the show's snarkiest characters.

Plus, if direct quotes matter so much, Oak states in the same episode that Lucario learned Bullet Punch because it had been backed into a corner. As in, it almost lost. Because every match was meant to be as close as possible. And Ash narrowly winning was what symbolized to him that he was ready to take on the tournament. Even moreso than the battle that actually got him into the M8 in the first place.

So yeah, I think he's more than strong enough to be considered Champion level. Training battle or not, it was taken seriously by both sides, especially since Ash didn't even realize Paul was training him until after it was over. They also can and have been one-sided if the opponent really is meant to be much weaker, as we saw with Clemont just a few episodes ago. The fact that Paul's wasn't should say everything you need to know.
 

SerGoldenhandtheJust

Deluded Dreamer
I just want to point out that Paul didn't say Ash couldn't beat the M8 for struggling against him. He said Ash wouldn't win the tournament for struggling against him. A tournament where the #1 seed is blatantly depicted as far, far superior to the others. Ash beating one M8 member is a very, very different feat from defeating three in a row.

Not that I get why some of you cling to that quote so hard when it ended up objectively not being true. Because Ash was struggling against Paul, and he did win the tournament anyway. So clearly something's not 100% accurate about a one-off taunt from one of the show's snarkiest characters.

Plus, if direct quotes matter so much, Oak states in the same episode that Lucario learned Bullet Punch because it had been backed into a corner. As in, it almost lost. Because every match was meant to be as close as possible. And Ash narrowly winning was what symbolized to him that he was ready to take on the tournament. Even moreso than the battle that actually got him into the M8 in the first place.

So yeah, I think he's more than strong enough to be considered Champion level. Training battle or not, it was taken seriously by both sides, especially since Ash didn't even realize Paul was training him until after it was over. They also can and have been one-sided if the opponent really is meant to be much weaker, as we saw with Clemont just a few episodes ago. The fact that Paul's wasn't should say everything you need to know.
"If you're struggling against me, you stand no chance in the tournament"
Feels a clear cut admission from Paul himself that he isn't in that calibre
Even E4 can make champions mon struggle and back into a corner, only to emerge victorious. There still is a distinction between them
It's simple honestly, we don't have much to determine trainer levels objectively with how powerscaling never being direct in the anime or simple A beats B B beats C so A better than C

So we use what the narrative tells us.

Paul self admitting he isn't upto M8 standards is more damning evidence than anything stating he's actual champion level based on arbitrary powerscaling that has never been consistent in the anime.
 

Blastmaster

Well-Known Member
"If you're struggling against me, you stand no chance in the tournament"
Feels a clear cut admission from Paul himself that he isn't in that calibre
Even E4 can make champions mon struggle and back into a corner, only to emerge victorious. There still is a distinction between them
It's simple honestly, we don't have much to determine trainer levels objectively with how powerscaling never being direct in the anime or simple A beats B B beats C so A better than C

So we use what the narrative tells us.

Paul self admitting he isn't upto M8 standards is more damning evidence than anything stating he's actual champion level based on arbitrary powerscaling that has never been consistent in the anime.
I mean, I agree battles in the anime are never consistent. But what I got from the narrative was that Tomioka wanted to be as respectful as possible to the character without actually needing to put him in the roster, since Paul was portrayed as even more important than Raihan when it came to Ash's readiness for the M8. He was the very last opponent Ash fought before heading off and gave him that final push of strength to prepare him, which I think if anything means more than the battle's powerscaling.

And like I said, that quote shouldn't hold so much water when it ended up being wrong. Ash nearly lost against Paul and still proceeded to win the whole thing regardless, so I doubt it meant anything more than just pushing Ash's buttons.
 

Ryker101

Well-Known Member
I’d place him in E4 as well. He still lost to Ash. While it’s kinda hard to gauge his team’s strength I don’t see him beating Alain or Raihan for example
 
I will choose a moderate option :

E4< Paul< Champion

Paul pretty easily beat Ash's Dragonite, who should be stronger than a solid E4, even assuming Garchomp is his best Pokemon...

so he could beat trainers Like Drasna. So he's probably close to the level a champion needs, if gets a mega stone he'll be even closer.
 
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