Is the Poison-type shafted?

[Dr. Sun]

The topic says it all. It's my general impression, given that it's only effective against one type that is also weak against several other types, can't affect Steel at all, and is the only type to my knowledge that was made weaker by the designers in the transfer from RBY to GSC. It used to be strong against Bug-types, but not anymore. Why actually make a type weaker?

With this in mind, what could be done to redress the balance? I personally think Poison should be effective against Fighting types, which as it is are strong against five types offensively and only weak against Psychic and Flying. It also provides some sort of justification-the likes of Bruce Lee and Jackie Chan depend on having strong, healthy bodies to fight, and they can hardly do so if they're poisoned or sickened by something, can't they?

I will admit, I'm no expert. But I just think Poison gets royally screwed nowadays, for the reasons cited above. Any thoughts on fixing the problem, if it needs to be fixed at all?

 

[Infinite Master Sceptile]

Unfortunately, since DP will be backwards compatible, I don't think any changes to the type chart are in order. Though I agree with you wholeheartedly.

 

[Orion-Sama]

Unfortunately, since DP will be backwards compatible, I don't think any changes to the type chart are in order.

A sad, sad world we live in indeed.

Poison was mindlessly shafted, indeed. It was a quite weak Type in the 1st Generation, considering how Psychic ruthlessly controlled the entire spectrum. And in GSC, evil Nintendo made Steel immune AND removed Bug from their edges.

I don't know why. Removing the Bug edge had ONLY one purpose: balancing 4x Weak Pokémon. Parasect would be 4x Weak against 3 different Types had it been kept that way, whereas other 4x Weak Pokémon had only two different 4x Weaknesses at most. Still... let's be honest. Who cares about a SINGLE Pokémon family? Not to mention Parasect is shafted already in the Stat department. Plus, it's being oblivious to way bigger problems and shafting a Type that wasn't so hot at all.

Thusforth, Parasect should take the blame for an ENTIRE Type. This problem can still be solved, but I doubt it ever will. The absolutely best solution would be to give Poison an edge against the Water Type. This Type remains as one of the most broken of them all, and most of the problem rests in the sheer lack of Physical weaknesses. Now, considering how most Poison attacks have to deal with pollution and sludge, and seeing the effect of pollution and oil leaks in the sea creatures, I think it'd be logical.

Unfortunately, IMS said it first. It's unlikely to see a change in the Type Chart. However, GSC was backwards compatible with RBY, and it made many changes still. A few were NEEDED, but this one was way too much and a bad idea. I doubt this will be done, though. Even if it should...

 

[adamgnome]

A sad, sad world we live in indeed.

Erm, you do realize there are a lot more serious things than a Pokemon type being shafted... -_-

You're also wrong saying that GSC was backwards compatible. It wasn't. :| The new Pokemon couldn't go backwards, so they decided to improve it a lot.

Making poison stronger would be pretty cool, but I don't see the harm in it. Just use a different Pokemon maybe? DX

 

[Dilasc]

Not that it would ever happen any time soon, but a good way to make poison more potent would be to add new types and ensure that at least two of them are weak to poison. Unfortunately, if ever nw types were invented, poison will probably be shafted yet again, and for new types to exist, it may be a long time.

 

[Chilled2m7]

Unfortunately, since DP will be backwards compatible, I don't think any changes to the type chart are in order. Though I agree with you wholeheartedly.

DP will utilize the same type of mechanic GSC did with respect to RBY. You will be able to trade already existing pokemon back to RSE but the new ones will obviously not be compatible with this process.
The creator of this thread mentioned that the super effectiveness of poison to bug was taken out sometime between RBY and GSC. Therefore, even though these games were somewhat "compatible". this type weakness change occured. There is nothing limiting any further type weakness changes for the next series, actually.

 

[Glowstick_cult]

I was thinking exactly the same thing. There aren't many decent Poison attacks out there, the majority being makeshift moves for grass pokemon in the singleplayer game (acid, sludge, blah). Toxic is a nice move, but it can be learned by almost any pokemon, and sludge bomb is the only offensive poison attack I can think of off the top of my feeble head. And it doesn't even have 100 attack power. And heck, that can be learned by a lot of pokemon too. There's no reason to have a poison pokemon at all, and that's no good. I like poison types, some look pretty cool, but they just don't have the usefulness to back them up.

 

[Dilasc]

Poison did gain a slight edge from RBY to GSC, and that was the loss of its BUG weakness. Yes, the manual says it was resistant, but in RBY, a Beedrill using Twinneedle could really put the hurt on a Vileplume, no joking.

 

[Praetor]

poison and bug types are both definitely shafted
P.S. make this a poll lol

 

[Orion-Sama]

Erm, you do realize there are a lot more serious things than a Pokemon type being shafted... -_-

Yes I do... such as people nowadays being unable to digest sarcasm/humor.

You're also wrong saying that GSC was backwards compatible. It wasn't. :| The new Pokemon couldn't go backwards, so they decided to improve it a lot.

Yes it was, and in the exact same degree as D/P will be with the 3rd Gen games. What I mean is that there's still a possibility to make changes to the Type Chart despite the compatibility, though it's likely Nintendo will be stupid as many times before and won't do jack squat. Why is it that they only changed it when two new Types came up? Let's assume that the Type Chart had remained the same from RBY to GSC and that no new Types came along. Wouldn't that be wrong in SO many ways?

I acknowledge that fixing the bugs with Ghost and Bug was a good thing. However, that'd be it! Why to make a Type EVEN worse just for a SINGLE Pokémon family that's ignored as hell anyway (No offense to Paras/Parasect fans... jut being as objective as possible.)? It's just illogic. It made sense for crying out loud (Toxic pesticide kills insects invading a harvest.)...

Making poison stronger would be pretty cool, but I don't see the harm in it. Just use a different Pokemon maybe? DX

Oh yes... let's keep being oblivious to this problem and let the lack of balance live on. There are MANY cool Poison Pokémon, such as there are may cool Ice Pokémon, but godawful management makes both Types AWFUL in one way or another, and just unworthy when compared to others. Wouldn't it be great to have a game where all Pokémon are about equally usable, instead of MANY Pokémon with potential (Muk, Swalot, Nidoking, just to name a few...) being ignored just because the Type sucks?

And using another Pokémon is a no-go. People should be able to use anything they wanted with at least moderated success. Problems like this one are the root of the known Pokémon discrimination in OU, UU and all that crap. Plus, this game is BEGGING for balance, which won't be attained until every Type can attack and defend equally. Too bad it won't happen... ever. Unless Nintendo has an enlightement for once... (Yeah sure...)

 

[intergalactic platypus]

Poison did gain a slight edge from RBY to GSC, and that was the loss of its BUG weakness. Yes, the manual says it was resistant, but in RBY, a Beedrill using Twinneedle could really put the hurt on a Vileplume, no joking.

thats cause grass is weak to bug. on topic, no one seems to give poison types any attention. i mean the only good poison moves are toxic and sludge bomb, and those are far from enough. plus only a few poison types are actually good. but theyve gotten better since R/B/Y cause they were ATROCIOUS back then with psychic types being dominant and sludge bomb not existing. theyve gotten a bit better

 

[Dr. Sun]

Yes I do... such as people nowadays being unable to digest sarcasm/humor.


Yes it was, and in the exact same degree as D/P will be with the 3rd Gen games. What I mean is that there's still a possibility to make changes to the Type Chart despite the compatibility, though it's likely Nintendo will be stupid as many times before and won't do jack squat. Why is it that they only changed it when two new Types came up? Let's assume that the Type Chart had remained the same from RBY to GSC and that no new Types came along. Wouldn't that be wrong in SO many ways?

Oh yes... let's keep being oblivious to this problem and let the lack of balance live on. There are MANY cool Poison Pokémon, such as there are may cool Ice Pokémon, but godawful management makes both Types AWFUL in one way or another, and just unworthy when compared to others. Wouldn't it be great to have a game where all Pokémon are about equally usable, instead of MANY Pokémon with potential (Muk, Swalot, Nidoking, just to name a few...) being ignored just because the Type sucks?

And using another Pokémon is a no-go. People should be able to use anything they wanted with at least moderated success. Problems like this one are the root of the known Pokémon discrimination in OU, UU and all that crap. Plus, this game is BEGGING for balance, which won't be attained until every Type can attack and defend equally. Too bad it won't happen... ever. Unless Nintendo has an enlightement for once... (Yeah sure...)

I admit, I've had a fondness/sympathy for Poison pokemon ever since Ekans and Koffing were getting repeatedly slaughtered back in the early Kanto days of the anime. Hence it's all the more frustrating for me to see the apparent bias both the game designers and anime writers seem to have against Poison types (Ash's Muk is the only one of his pokemon that's never won a fair fight).

I started another threat a while back that would have proposed correcting what I saw as some of the most egregious mistakes:

-Making Dragon strong against Water and Grass (bad idea, I admit)

-Making Poison strong against Fighting (I think it balances things a little more, since Fighting pokemon got a major boost by being strong against both Steel and Dark, and in my mind it was easy to justify, as explained in the first post)

-Making Fire and Fighting neutral against Steel, and Water and Electric strong against it, instead of the other way around (I just find it easier to believe; as much you-know-what as he kicks, I just can't see Bruce Lee smashing through a steel door with his bare hands, or breaking a steel block.)

But hey, if Poison works great against Water, I'll go for that. But I just think Fighting and Ice are dominant as it stands in the game right now, and Poison (and to a lesser extent, Grass) really get screwed.

Now, if only Ash's Muk will get a chance to prove itself in a FAIR fight. It was brilliance on Ash's part to send Muk out against that Bellsprout, but it didn't really get Muk much in the way of battle-glory, considering that nothing Bellsprout did could harm it. Oh well, there are still [SPOIL]four Frontier Brains to go...[/SPOIL]

 

[SHUCKLE MAN]

I have a few things to say.
1)this is a very good thread
2)Back in GRBY when all grass-types except Tangela, Exeggcute and Exeggcutor were poison types the grass-type was also one of the most underrated types in existence. Poor Venusaur... *sigh* I luv u venusaur...
3)There were other minor type changes like ice used to be average against fire. this made ice beam super effective against Moletres and Charizard. Bug was super effective against poison and ghost. Use leech life against a gastly, and a Venusaur. they do QUADRUPLE damage.
4)In the 1st generation Bug was also good against Zubat and Solarbeam did half against gyarados. (If you do not beleive me try it out).
5)The only good Poison type is Crobat. This may seem ridiculous but some people consider CB Crobat as an uber as it is one of the fastest Pokemon in the game and a CBstabbedPoisonbarbed Slucdge Bomb does a LOT of damage.
6)There should be a new Poison type attack that is base 250 accuracy 100 but makes you faint. basically the Poison type explosion.
7)The poison type is sooooo underated. Venusaur my darling...!

That is all I have to say...

Oh! I just remembered! What about Gengar! Do you call him underrated.

 

[stromdusk]

Oh yes... let's keep being oblivious to this problem and let the lack of balance live on. There are MANY cool Poison Pokémon, such as there are may cool Ice Pokémon, but godawful management makes both Types AWFUL in one way or another, and just unworthy when compared to others. Wouldn't it be great to have a game where all Pokémon are about equally usable, instead of MANY Pokémon with potential (Muk, Swalot, Nidoking, just to name a few...) being ignored just because the Type sucks?

I beg to differ no type sucks just like no Pokémon sucks, that is if you know how to use it properly. The main power of poison is to poison the opponent, which if you use it properly with a Muk, that has minimise and acid armour, it can score you major wins even against some of the types that poison are weak to, especially those that are physical attackers. On the other had Muk and Nidoking, possibly Swalot, can use a wide range of attacks including rock, fire, electric, fight (including focus punch), ground, and grass types moves and Nidoking can use almost all off the tms including water and ice. In reality it is not being ignored, but rather you don't seem to know how to utilise them properly.

6)There should be a new Poison type attack that is base 250 accuracy 100 but makes you faint. basically the Poison type explosion.

If they did that they would have do it for other types as well. There is a reason that only Normal has that powerful base, which is if you say the poison type sucks than the normal type naturally sucks even more. After all normal has no advantage over other Pokémon... unless you can use the normal type properly, but if you can't even use the poison type properly I don't see how you could use the normal type properly. On the hand a Poison attack with a base 120 like Fire Blast, Thunderbolt, and Blizzard or more likely a Poison attack with a base 150. Maybe a Focus Poison that always hits, but only poisons the foe if your opponent doesn't hit you.

 

[ZadokRox]

I also agree that Poinson-types have been getting the shaft. The only advantages they do have is that they take half damage from Fighting, Poison, and Grass-types and that they themselves can't be poison.

I like the idea of having Fighting-types take double damage from Poison-type attacks. However, I would rather see a new type made, one that is weak against Poison-type attacks.

We'll see come the release of Diamond/Pearl.

 

[Eszett]

I'm more concerned about the welfare of the Ice types than the Poison types (thanks for your grievances on that matter, Orion), but indeed has the Poison type been shafted. One strength, many types which resist its moves, and weaknesses to two painfully prolific move types stands as quite pitiful for a typing.

At the very least I would like to see Poison types get an advantage against Water types, which run amok through the metagame like nobody's business. However, I would also like to anoint Poison moves with strength against Fighting types to represent how many poisons can result in atrophy and other such conditions. Or maybe they can liken poison to steroids and encourage kids that steroids are bad to strong bodies. ;]

I like the idea of having Fighting-types take double damage from Poison-type attacks. However, I would rather see a new type made, one that is weak against Poison-type attacks.

We'll see come the release of Diamond/Pearl.

No we won't. It's been confirmed that there will be no new types.

 

[Orion-Sama]

I beg to differ no type sucks just like no Pokémon sucks, that is if you know how to use it properly. The main power of poison is to poison the opponent, which if you use it properly with a Muk, that has minimise and acid armour, it can score you major wins even against some of the types that poison are weak to, especially those that are physical attackers. On the other had Muk and Nidoking, possibly Swalot, can use a wide range of attacks including rock, fire, electric, fight (including focus punch), ground, and grass types moves and Nidoking can use almost all off the tms including water and ice. In reality it is not being ignored, but rather you don't seem to know how to utilise them properly.

Read my post properly, plz. I said that there are MANY Pokémon with potential that are also somewhat popular and cool-looking, but they're still ignored, and the biggest reason is that the Type they belong to is just too awful to deal with. Why to use Nidoking when you can use Dragonite? Why to use Swalot when you can use Snorlax? Why to use Muk when you can use Weezing? The problem of Poison IS the fact that it was toned down just because of a measly Pokémon family.

And I know how to use all of them, thank you very much. I know they'll always be below the level of Pokémon like Snorlax and such. No way around that. HOWEVER, they would be OH SO MUCH MORE USEFUL if their Type had at the very least another edge. How about an edge against an overly popular and sickeningly under-managed Type such as Water? Water itself wouldn't be broken if they could ACTUALLY balance the Pokémon belonging to such Type well. Electric has only one Weakness, yet it has a well-managed demographic, which makes it so a good 90% of them fall easily against any powerful physical attack. They're weak against the most used Move in the entire game, and they'll fall against it 99% of the time. Their Special Defense is decent, but it's not sickeningly high, which means even Special Attacks can easily make short work of Electric Pokémon. That's NOT the case with Water...

No Type sucks? I beg to differ. Poison and Ice do suck. How so? They really can't compare to other Types. Rock is a quite godawful Type, but it has enough edges AND resistances to make it at least seemingly worthy of use. Poison is just strong against yet another ignored Type in every form and way, and is weak agaisnt two popular attacks. Poisoning the opponent is worthless unless you can trap them. Something most Poison Pokémon can't do. Normal Poison is too slow. Toxic Poison is good, but you need good lastability/trapping potential if you wanna make actually worthy use of it. Refresh and Heal Bell are way too widespread now thanks to XD, and there's also Natural Cure/Aromateraphy/Rest/Safeguard/Substitute. Plus, when compared with the other 4 bad Status, Poison is nowhere near as good. Burn depletes HP AND lowers Attack. Paralysis prevents attack AND lowers Speed. Sleep and Freeze render the Pokémon useless for many turns. A Poisoned Pokémon can still perform at full, and the HP loss is negligible with Leftovers. Then, you just have to get out your healer and there it goes...

With that in mind, the only real use of Poison is STAB, which is actually quite decent on Nidoking and Muk. Still, with only one real advantage that's not common at all, 2 Types resistant and one immune, you're MUCH better off with another Type of attack. Plus, Poison Types are vulnerable because of being weak against 2 awfully popular attacks, and while resistant to 4 different Types, 2 of them are barely used, and any Pokémon that uses the other 2 (Fighting and Bug.) is most likely ready with another attack that will decimate any Poison Type.

Striping Poison off one of their edges was the worst thing they ever did against such Type. It's barely usable anymore save a few exceptions, and it'll remain like this until they give it some retribution AND attention...

 

[Yamato-san]

no one's mentioned it yet, so I figure I'll say it: other than Bug no longer being super-effective against it, there is one other good thing that came to Poison when GSC came out, and that's going from a Special type to a Physical type. Just look at all the pure Poison-types, their special stats are horrid while their physical stats are pretty decent. That aside, I agree with what's been said about poison getting the shaft.

 

[Eeveeboy_geoff]

Posion types are actually pretty good. Despite their abysmul type chart, their physical stats tend to be very high, and they're resistant to Fighting. Plus, they learn some excellent attacks, such as Sludge Bomb...

Personally, I like Swalot. He's funny looking, too...

 

[Hukuzo]

Poison is super effective against bug and grass, not just bug. Pure poison pokemon and poison attacks are weak and aren't useful. Only a few poison pokemon are cool. Poison is simply the worst type in the game.