Is there a difference in quality for you between Kanto+Orange Islands and Jotho?

[Blastmaster]

Orange islands is the one part of the anime i haven't seen anything from actually. Could you give an example of "cyncism" vs lackthereof? in kanto and oi respectively?
A caveat with my takes is that my "approach" for watching pokemon is to watch from the beginning of each season and watch as many episodes until i get annoyed with it(episode 8-10 with kanto, 3-4 with sinnoh, episode 2 with xy, ect) then i look for potential high points/important battles. So it's quite possible I'm missing some really bad lows for kanto since the second I decided this wasn't worth slogging through around episode 8 where Brock, who til this point has been potrayed as very responsible and fatherly, repeatedly says they're excited for when a 10 year old girl turns 18. (-_-) After that i looked for things I might find interesring, ie, team rocket backstories, sabrina, ect, ect. So it's completely possible kanto has some really really bad lows I'm missing(i'd definitely consider the school ep a low, not just due to them completely destroying brock's character).

Yeah, the creepy underage jokes in Kanto have aged horribly. I remember there were at least two instances of grown men hitting on Misty, too. But even outside of that, I think Kanto just has this excess of nastiness and always punches down on Ash for thinking anything is unfair. Like Blaine has no qualms about potentially murdering Pikachu in the lava and no one calls him out on this, or Ash constantly being forced to "take responsibility" for things that weren't his fault (the Samurai episode/Team Rocket ruining his League battle). I also couldn't stand most of Charizard's disobedience phase. Everyone kept telling Ash he sucks for not training it but no one offers any possible solutions on how, which would've been nice for a mon that was so nasty he was barely convinced to help Ash deal with an active volcano.

I guess it's telling that the reason Charizard finally became obedient was just Ash saving him again and reminding him of his heroic Heart of Gold™. Thing is, with how they'd written him in Kanto, I don't think any amount of training would've actually gotten him to cooperate. He was just way too borderline sadistic, and the same is true for a lot of Kanto characters.

So on my rewatch of sinnoh i got annoyed with it by episode 3, so from that point I watched every episode which featured (or even referenced)paul+a couple potentially interesting non-paul episodes+everything+ the sinnoh league.

While he's not *all plot and plain exposition(his interest in ash "mastering blaze", telling electravire it was a good game, waving back, yelling "what!" when he realizes ash won the battle frontier, his conversation with torterra, and a collection of visual reactions, and facial expressions with chimchar, are all the examples of non-expositional dialogue i can think of), almost all of his major character beats are repeatedly exposited:
-> Why he didn't like ash?
Exposited to dawn why he didn't like ash(
-> Why he's hard on pokemon?
Reggie tells us he saw him lose and looked up to him, we see a static image of paul looking at reggie but i think it's a stretch to treat that as real character work
-> What does he represent for ash?
Cynthia, Brock, and Reggie repeatedly say "something will be born between them"
-> What does Paul feel about ash?
Stated explicitly
-> What does Ash feel about Paul?
-> Constantly stated explicitly
-> Why is he hard on chimchar?
He says why explicitly

Even Paul's strongest point, his strategy, is repeatedly explained mid-battle by multiple sources(and it was really really annoying in the final battle between the two where brock, reggie, and barry were constantly verbally explaining what we had just seen in the fight or what had already been conveyed visually ia paul and ash's reactions.) tho TBF, this issue plagues almost all of dp's fights, it just gets very noticeable with all the things going on with Paul.

For the purposes of this reply, i'll omit my opinion on the effiency of these examples. How consistent(or inconsistent) all these moments were with the rest of what we see(cough cynthia's musings cough). I'll also avoid discussing how much sense the timing of this dialogue made in universe(why is paul telling his life story, unprompted, to dawn of all people?)

The relevant problem here, as far as multi-dimensionality is concerned, is how little ground is covered despite all of Paul's screentime and how reliant the story is on paul for it's payoffs. The deepest motivation we get for paul is
-> Paul thinks freindship doesn't help you win
why?
-> Because he looked up to his brother who lost and retired from pokemon battling

Note that there's only one "why" here. Why does paul look up to his brother? Why did his brother losing affect him so strongly? Also note, this is "exclusively" expositional dialogue from paul's brother. It should go without saying they spent alooot of story beats on this


Let's compare this with what we get from sabrina in two episodes:
-> Sabrina keeps people to play with
why?
-> She's alone?
why?
-> Her psonic abilities estranged her from her friend ands family

Note that we directly see sabrina interact with her parents, we're visually shown her isolation in multiple ways and as a bonus we get a physical representation of her childhood desires and further implication of this with her sending people to a "doll-house". That is a LOT of set-up for what is essentially a cameo. While Paul is more "multi-dimensional" than most as a byproduct of getting a shitton of screentime, per story beat, alot is being milked from what's very basic set-up/contextualiztion.

This isn't to say the sabrina episodes were a secret masterpiece(a really big issue with that arc for me is the characters(and the narrator) putting way more emphasis on "ash winning the rainbow badge" as opposed to, you know, completely changing the trajectory of multiple lives), but relatively speaking, you're getting alot with less. None of the things i mention is called to attention or rereferenced once. And it's all done with maybe, 5 lines of dialogue?

As a by product of getting a shitton more screen time than basically anything else, Paul "has more" going for him than most, but per story beat? The amount of time we spend doesn't match up with what the character is actually given. Paul is exposited and utilized as if he is a complex character, but he isn't really written that way.

Eh, fair point about the anime's love of exposition, but that's kind of just how the show is. It's one of those things that you just have to get used to with Pokemon because it happens in every series lol. Plus tbf there are a lot of things in fiction, not just Pokemon, where it is necessary to directly explain them. Backstories are one of them.

Fwiw, there is an extra "why" explaining why Paul looked up to Reggie so much. It's because he's already collected all the gen 1-4 badges and 6/7 of the Frontier Symbols, yet his loss to Brandon single-handedly caused him to retire. Brock actually notices all his accomplishments when they meet in Veilstone City, but doesn't particularly question it until several dozen episodes later.

I'd also say Paul and Reggie do get a pretty good amount of screentime with each other. There's some small moments I liked right before and after the Lake Acuity/Sinnoh League battles that show a sort of softer side to him around his brother. It's a much slower burn than Sabrina of course, but it's kind of to be expected with DP being a longform story rather than the mostly episodic OS. Plus it gives a lot more time to focus on fully establishing his character, whereas like you said with Sabrina, her overall screentime isn't much more than a cameo.

 

[DatsRight]

Yeah, the creepy underage jokes in Kanto have aged horribly. I remember there were at least two instances of grown men hitting on Misty, too. But even outside of that, I think Kanto just has this excess of nastiness and always punches down on Ash for thinking anything is unfair. Like Blaine has no qualms about potentially murdering Pikachu in the lava and no one calls him out on this, or Ash constantly being forced to "take responsibility" for things that weren't his fault (the Samurai episode/Team Rocket ruining his League battle). I also couldn't stand most of Charizard's disobedience phase. Everyone kept telling Ash he sucks for not training it but no one offers any possible solutions on how, which would've been nice for a mon that was so nasty he was barely convinced to help Ash deal with an active volcano.

I guess it's telling that the reason Charizard finally became obedient was just Ash saving him again and reminding him of his heroic Heart of Gold™. Thing is, with how they'd written him in Kanto, I don't think any amount of training would've actually gotten him to cooperate. He was just way too borderline sadistic, and the same is true for a lot of Kanto characters.

Yeah I feel like Shudo's original plans for a more cynical and corrupt Pokemon universe were still being put on the table back in Kanto, but obviously he was being asked to tone it down, leading to a lot of the more cynical depths and twists just coming off as amorphous meanness for the sake of meanness, or awkwardly trying to handwave the nastier moments via a 'family friendly moral' like everything being down to Ash's follies as a trainer. The Team Rocket trio felt like the few elements that translated rather well in this format, likely due to being bad guys that executives would badger them about less. It's likely for this reason that they became so popular, and actually started to wane a bit with the later changes.

I feel like Orange Islands was the happy medium really, where they'd started to fine tune these problems and make the show work more cleanly in a more whitewashed setup, while still retaining some of the more entertaining 'rough edges' and more character driven elements of Kanto.

 

[Sceptile Leaf Blade]

Charizard was a bit awkwardly handled, the disobedience was as much a plot device to keep Ash from having a pokémon that was clearly overpowered compared to everything else at the time as it was character driven. That said, Ash also never even tried to work with Charizard until the Orange Islands. He just stopped using Charizard unless he really needed it in the situation, but he never actually made an attempt to work out their problems either. It's a big contrast to how Ash handles these things later on in the series like with Lycanroc. When Lycanroc develops issues Ash actively works with it and keeps on being its trainer instead of just begging the pokémon to obey while making no effort to understand it. It was something that Ash had to figure out for himself, he was Charizard's trainer and he was supposed to work this out, he was supposed to know Charizard the best. Even in Johto when Chikorita has a phase Ash already deals with it a bit better by at least asking for advice with Nurse Joy. Acknowledging that there is something wrong and taking an active step towards fixing it is already better than just not calling Charizard anymore and hoping the problem will go away on its own.
And in that sense, I do think that Ash's defeat at the Indigo League was partially his fault. He never worked with Charizard to solve the issues and that came back to bite him when he had no other option left but to try and use it in a crucial battle. Plus only having five pokémon with him left him with fewer options (seriously why didn't he keep a full party with him throughout much of Kanto?).

 

[DatsRight]

I feel like the bigger problem with Charizard is that they just straight up adapted the same stipulations in the games rather than keeping it within character. Later cases of disobidient Pokemon tend to have at least some palpable ongoing personality to explain their behaviour and will often break from it when it comes within their limit (eg. Exadrill being disobedient full time was excused due to basically being in BSOD mode from failing Iris and having zero confidence helping her anymore, other Pokemon like Lycanroc had 'red eyes' syndromes that affected their personalities and meant they had no self control, others were.....just jerks but would break from their behaviour when the situation turned serious to show they had SOME decency to justify their trainers keeping them).

Charizard was just a perpetual aloof machine, in any situation, no matter how awkward it looked. Like not wanting to do panzy fake battle against Paras was one thing, but coldly snubbing rescuing Pikachu from Team Rocket or SAVING EVERYONE FROM AN ERUPTING VOLCANO, even as Ash begged and pleaded for him to show compassion, generally just painted Charizard as a sociopath.

Even worse is the choice of Pokemon for this role, since Charmander had already been saved by Ash's devotedly once. You could understand with maybe say, Bulbasaur, who had been let down by humans and had signs of a cynical untrusting personality in his unevolved state, but it was a stark change for Charmander.

 

[Sceptile Leaf Blade]

Oh, it was by no means well written, and the disobedience was a blatant excuse because Charizard was so overpowered and had to receive some kind of nerf, heck they got rid of it quite quickly into Johto too, but fact remains that Ash also did not try. Sure, the writers probably didn't make him try because that would raise expectations of development there. I don't recall the series ever giving an in-universe explanation as to why Charizard was disobedient in the first place.

 

[Roffitle]

I just realized that after she captures Poliwag in Orange Islands, Misty's only capture for the next 150 episodes was Corsola, and that wasn't until 2/3rd's of Johto was already over. The writers could have had her capture a Wooper, Chinchou, even Totodile...but she doesn't get anything until 100+ eps into Johto.

Man, the writers just did not care about Misty's team did they? Not to mention they could have brought Horsea back and evolved it to Kingdra which was a new pokemon at the time, and could have given Misty a powerhouse back then, but instead Horsea is never used again.

 

[DatsRight]

Oh, it was by no means well written, and the disobedience was a blatant excuse because Charizard was so overpowered and had to receive some kind of nerf, heck they got rid of it quite quickly into Johto too, but fact remains that Ash also did not try. Sure, the writers probably didn't make him try because that would raise expectations of development there. I don't recall the series ever giving an in-universe explanation as to why Charizard was disobedient in the first place.

I feel like the general problem with Ash's bad training is that rather than the writers just letting his poor skills speak for themselves and cause his own downfall, they had everything conspire against him to make sure he lost. So in that sense, Ash deserved to lose, but he deserved to lose on his own merits, not getting screwed out of it. It's kind of like disqualifying or cheating a participant that had zero chance of winning anyway because they believe it's just 'skipping the formalities' of watching them lose themselves.

It's even worse considering the piousness of most of Ash's biggest critics. Misty for example was incredibly critical and demeaning to Ash, and yet, she got a free pass for being a crap trainer who didn't even try to get better. She only ever fell upwards with her dysfunctional Pokemon, with Togepi and Psyduck only helping her win, and most occasions she tried to use her other Pokemon competently just being nulled out by those two gags, even into Johto, she almost always wins by dumb luck or that blasted Psyduck headache she has no control over. There was one time Ash called out Misty for giving up so quickly training Togepi, she threatened violence on him and that was the last we heard of it.

I think that's where the mean spiritedness stems from in Kanto, since EVERYONE was a flawed self righteous jerk in terms of being a Pokemon trainer, but often only Ash was a 'loser' for it and ultimately tried to get better, so the sympathy edged his way.

 

[pickapika]

Yeah, the creepy underage jokes in Kanto have aged horribly. I remember there were at least two instances of grown men hitting on Misty, too. But even outside of that, I think Kanto just has this excess of nastiness and always punches down on Ash for thinking anything is unfair. Like Blaine has no qualms about potentially murdering Pikachu in the lava and no one calls him out on this, or Ash constantly being forced to "take responsibility" for things that weren't his fault (the Samurai episode/Team Rocket ruining his League battle). I also couldn't stand most of Charizard's disobedience phase. Everyone kept telling Ash he sucks for not training it but no one offers any possible solutions on how, which would've been nice for a mon that was so nasty he was barely convinced to help Ash deal with an active volcano.

Ooof. Yeah Blaine sounds pretty bad.

I guess it's telling that the reason Charizard finally became obedient was just Ash saving him again and reminding him of his heroic Heart of Gold™. Thing is, with how they'd written him in Kanto, I don't think any amount of training would've actually gotten him to cooperate. He was just way too borderline sadistic, and the same is true for a lot of Kanto characters.

I mean, there's always a way to make a character go somewhere, but from what I've read, it seemed like execs preferred to drop the darker set-ups and start the slate clean for a lighthearted show.

Eh, fair point about the anime's love of exposition, but that's kind of just how the show is. It's one of those things that you just have to get used to with Pokemon because it happens in every series lol. Plus tbf there are a lot of things in fiction, not just Pokemon, where it is necessary to directly explain them. Backstories are one of them.

Well, Kanto specifcally , from what I've seen isn't all that exposition heavy, but again, I've been fishing for higlights so it's possible it has a bunch of really bad examples i'm not catching. (This specifically applies to the sub, the dub is another matter). The other series are very, very exposition reliant.

Fwiw, there is an extra "why" explaining why Paul looked up to Reggie so much. It's because he's already collected all the gen 1-4 badges and 6/7 of the Frontier Symbols, yet his loss to Brandon single-handedly caused him to retire. Brock actually notices all his accomplishments when they meet in Veilstone City, but doesn't particularly question it until several dozen episodes later.

That's fair. It's not that strong of a reason but i guess it's there.

I'd also say Paul and Reggie do get a pretty good amount of screentime with each other. There's some small moments I liked right before and after the Lake Acuity/Sinnoh League battles that show a sort of softer side to him around his brother. It's a much slower burn than Sabrina of course, but it's kind of to be expected with DP being a longform story rather than the mostly episodic OS. Plus it gives a lot more time to focus on fully establishing his character, whereas like you said with Sabrina, her overall screentime isn't much more than a cameo.

I do like paul and reggie's interactions.(and i'd have preferred paul to start off closer to that than whatever the heck "i'm so tough i don't take my mon to the poke-center" was supposed to be) but they're all in present-time *after, the characters have become who they are, not seeing them interact *before reggie's loss, or the specifics of their upbrining, seems like a big missed oppurtunity. That's the kind of thing i'd expect from a slow-burner.

 

[pickapika]

Of course, but I guess the writers didnt think about that back then

I'm curious what shudo's og plan for her was. It feels like she had the ingrendients for an *asuka-ish deconstruction.

 

[pickapika]

(I love how every Pokemon in this series feels like a proper main character and foil is added for example).

Yeah, in S and M, I've found the stuff where the pokemon do things without the trainers solid. I kinda wish they did that more. Maybe it because being stripped of "dialogue" forced the writers to actually convey things creatively, but the pokemon, without their trainers around, seem like more interesting characters than the trainers themselves.

One of the things that's irks me about the anime in general is how pikachu seems to have had it's personality drained so it can be supportive/enthuastic for whatver ash wants.

 

[DatsRight]

Yeah, in S and M, I've found the stuff where the pokemon do things without the trainers solid. I kinda wish they did that more. Maybe it because being stripped of "dialogue" forced the writers to actually convey things creatively, but the pokemon, without their trainers around, seem like more interesting characters than the trainers themselves.

One of the things that's irks me about the anime in general is how pikachu seems to have had it's personality drained so it can be supportive/enthuastic for whatver ash wants.

I think this is why SM stuck well since it kinda put that in centre stage, that whole Rugrats type dynamic where the trainers are trying to bond with their Pokemon despite the communication barrier.

Pokemon in hindsight might be a top example against the whole 'adding new characters ruins the dynamic' argument, since if you give a new character the right concept in terms of the dynamic and synergy they add, they can really compliment the main group well.

I feel like this was a downfall for Brock and Misty really, their Pokemon seldom livened them up nor did they really make many attempts to bond with them. They had a couple gag Pokemon but that's as far as it went, a running gag. The rest of their teams were glorified props. Misty got something out Togepi due to her motherly nature, but they had no new ideas for it by the time of Johto, hence many perhaps wrongly assuming Togepi sapped the life out of her (when truthfully many later companions have been active even with a 'baby Pokemon' in their care full time).

They didn't do enough with Ash's Johto group either, but at least they had actual personalities and their captures were memorable. I really struggle to remember Brock and Misty's Johto Pokemon as characters.

 

[Deleted member 384931]

They didn't do enough with Ash's Johto group either, but at least they had actual personalities and their captures were memorable. I really struggle to remember Brock and Misty's Johto Pokemon as characters.

Well there was Pineco before it evolved into Fortress and Corsola, not the most memorable pokemon in general.

 

[Roffitle]

It's ironic that people think the female companion not battling much is a recent thing (due to Serena, Koharu, or Mallow, Lillie, etc), when you look back at Misty's run and she hardly battled at all either. And it's actually worse in Misty's case because she was already a trainer, a Gym leader, and not a beginning trainer like the others and she had over 8 pokemon as a main character on top of that.

And yet despite all that she still hardly battled. There's not even that many Misty battles to go back and rewatch in the OS because they simply don't exist in the anime. I think she has maybe 2-3 proper battles in all of Kanto (the Gym battle, the Princess festival, etc.), and then in Orange Islands only in that Golduck episode. Then for most of Johto she hardly battles at all till the tail-end of the saga when she gets Corsola and Poliwhirl.

Misty has shockingly very few trainer battles in the anime.

 

[pickapika]

I think this is why SM stuck well since it kinda put that in centre stage, that whole Rugrats type dynamic where the trainers are trying to bond with their Pokemon despite the communication barrier.

Pokemon in hindsight might be a top example against the whole 'adding new characters ruins the dynamic' argument, since if you give a new character the right concept in terms of the dynamic and synergy they add, they can really compliment the main group well.

I feel like this was a downfall for Brock and Misty really, their Pokemon seldom livened them up nor did they really make many attempts to bond with them. They had a couple gag Pokemon but that's as far as it went, a running gag. The rest of their teams were glorified props. Misty got something out Togepi due to her motherly nature, but they had no new ideas for it by the time of Johto, hence many perhaps wrongly assuming Togepi sapped the life out of her (when truthfully many later companions have been active even with a 'baby Pokemon' in their care full time).

They didn't do enough with Ash's Johto group either, but at least they had actual personalities and their captures were memorable. I really struggle to remember Brock and Misty's Johto Pokemon as characters.

Just finished the episode where the fire traineri loses to a wild genegar(evena fter using a zmove) needs a z-move to ko a genegar on a rematch, and then the genegar, apparently moved by his strength gives back a special fire crown. The show potrays it like some big character defining triumph but it just makes it even harder for me to take him seriously. At the very least they should have had him beat genegar without the z move. Really the proper way to do it would have been having genegar and bakegames battle unasssisted for the right to take the crown.

 

[DatsRight]

Just finished the episode where the fire traineri loses to a wild genegar(evena fter using a zmove) needs a z-move to ko a genegar on a rematch, and then the genegar, apparently moved by his strength gives back a special fire crown. The show potrays it like some big character defining triumph but it just makes it even harder for me to take him seriously.

Gengar? You mean a Marowak?

SM is certainly kinda cheesy in plot line but I thought that story worked okay since they'd built up Kiawe as something of a one-hit wonder in previous episodes who used Turtonator's bulk for everything, even when it didn't fit (eg. the pancake race).

 

[Sceptile Leaf Blade]

I don't think that's a bad episode either. I don't see it as putting down Kiawe, Kiawe shows resilience in trying again and succeeding, I don't think he comes off as weak. It's more that Marowak is just really strong, that pokémon remains one of the powerhouses of Kiawe's team for the remainder of the series.

 

[pickapika]

Gengar? You mean a Marowak?

SM is certainly kinda cheesy in plot line but I thought that story worked okay since they'd built up Kiawe as something of a one-hit wonder in previous episodes who used Turtonator's bulk for everything, even when it didn't fit (eg. the pancake race).

The japanese sub had it as genegar.

I mean, i guess you can kinda infer it from the pancake, but that trait was never really commented on or treated as a weakness in the various battles he'd fought in and you'd guess from the fact he's completed the island challenge he's supposed to be a very competent trainer. He's also kinda potrayed as a peer for ash up until this episode( you never see the outcomes of their battles but ash considers him really strong which is why he wants to battle him).

So the optics of this tiny-ass trainer-less pokemon beating him even after he uses a full-powered z move aren't great, and him then showcasing he'd "changed" by beating it with a completely unfair trump card is just...meh. If they really wanted to potray him as a very falwed trainer, i feel like they should have done a bit more to set that up and his loss should be potrayed as a lot more devestating than it was in the show where it act kiawe like he faced some super-formidable obstacle

 

[DatsRight]

The japanese sub had it as genegar.

I mean, i guess you can kinda infer it from the pancake, but that trait was never really commented on or treated as a weakness in the various battles he'd fought in and you'd guess from the fact he's completed the island challenge he's supposed to be a very competent trainer. He's also kinda potrayed as a peer for ash up until this episode( you never see the outcomes of their battles but ash considers him really strong which is why he wants to battle him).

So the optics of this tiny-ass trainer-less pokemon beating him even after he uses a full-powered z move aren't great, and him then showcasing he'd "changed" by beating it with a completely unfair trump card is just...meh. If they really wanted to potray him as a very falwed trainer, i feel like they should have done a bit more to set that up and his loss should be potrayed as a lot more devestating than it was in the show where it act kiawe like he faced some super-formidable obstacle

SM was still basic childish plots in this regard but I think in terms of a substance of challenge compared to say, fighting a TR interruption, it worked.

I feel like the whole point was that Turtonator had been built up as a tank, meaning it would brush off most speedy opponents because, in general, Pokemon trade strength for speed. Marowak was meant to be fast AND strong, which was maybe odd for a wild Pokemon, but Ash has caught Pokemon that were already tough before, and a recurring point of SM was the characters were big fish in small ponds and hadn't really explored outside their comfort zone.

It wasn't just the Z Move that won the battle for Turtonator anyway, Turtonator had learned Shell Smash and more direct attacks to counter Marowak's speed rather than just being a tank.

Edit: Marowak's Japanese name is Garagara.

 

[pickapika]

I don't think that's a bad episode either. I don't see it as putting down Kiawe, Kiawe shows resilience in trying again and succeeding, I don't think he comes off as weak. It's more that Marowak is just really strong, that pokémon remains one of the powerhouses of Kiawe's team for the remainder of the series.

I mean, Morawak should be *the powerhouse of his team if it can take out his ace without a trainer or a z-move.

It'd be one thing if the showshowed marowak doing stuff, but it's just a wild pokemon that like sfighting and the man needed to go super-saiyan to beat it. It comes across as if they're getting hyped that kiawe took candy from a baby.

 

[Sceptile Leaf Blade]

As much as some SM haters may argue otherwise, Z-Moves are really not the epitome of battling, nor are they anything close to I-win-buttons. In the end they are just a very strong move, but if you are already at a disadvantage without them the Z-Move isn't likely to suddenly change the entire dynamic. They do need to be used strategically and trainers need to find a good opening to use them. The anime follows the game rules in only allowing a single Z-Move per battle, and unlike in the games if the opponent is on guard and has countermeasures they can come off relatively unscathed by for example dodging it. It makes it quite different from say, Mega Evolution that is generally just a straightforward powerup in the anime without much strategy behind it, lasting till the end of battle.