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Islam And the Law Of Non Contradiction.

Contradictions (and generally being wrong even when it is consistent) mean a book isn't some divine revelation.
Did you not catch the "benefit of the doubt" part? I sense no benefit of the doubt here. "Innocent until proven guilty" should not be replaced with "guilty until proven innocent."

There has never been a true prophet. And fun fact: The sword was used to spread christianity too.

Important fact: Jesus didn't kill anyone. Muhammed killed many. There's a difference between a later follower spreading a religion by the sword and the founder of a religion spreading it by the sword.

Unless I'm mistaken, Christians persecuting others started out with the Catholics after A.D. 500. I don't demonize Catholics, but this is an example of religious figures wielding political power, similar to Islam. Religious people don't always force their views on others, and Jesus is evidence of that.

I find it funny for a Christian to point out contradictions in Islam while earlier in the post saying some can be reconciled.
I was not pointing to a contradiction between things in Islam. I was pointing to several facts:
(1) Muhammed claimed to be a prophet without any evidence. Jesus performed miracles as even the Jewish writings admit (though they claimed Jesus had the devil's power).

(2) Muhammed claimed that no prophet can suffer excruciating torment. He even goes as far as to say God miraculously took Jesus from the cross. This means to believe Muhammed, we must assume the supernatural.

These issues are not about a contradiction between two passages in the Qu'ran. They are fundamental issues about how Islam handles history, and how it deals with the claims of other religions.

As you can see from this post, I do not need to assume that Islam is invalid; I demonstrate it. Jesus died on the cross--that fact is historically undeniable. Sources from shortly after Jesus are unanimous that Jesus was in fact crucified under Pontius Pilate. Considering these facts, Muhammed was simply making excuses for his religion in an effort to save face and avoid challenges to his prophetic credentials.

(By the way, I do not expect anyone to assume the supernatural. Jesus' resurrection is actually quite well supported historically. Jesus appeared after His death, not just to followers who wanted to see Him, but also to people like the doubter Thomas, Jesus' skeptical brother James, and the violent persecutor of the Church Saul of Tarsus.)
 
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GhostAnime

Searching for her...
(1) Muhammed claimed to be a prophet without any evidence. Jesus performed miracles as even the Jewish writings admit (though they claimed Jesus had the devil's power).
How do we really know those things happened? How do you know Muhammed was lying? It's all biased thinking on your part.

(2) Muhammed claimed that no prophet can suffer excruciating torment. He even goes as far as to say God miraculously took Jesus from the cross. This means to believe Muhammed, we must assume the supernatural.
You have to assume no more than the miracles with Jesus.

Sources from shortly after Jesus are unanimous that Jesus was in fact crucified under Ponius Pilate
Sources where?

Did you not catch the "benefit of the doubt" part? I sense no benefit of the doubt here. "Innocent until proven guilty" should not be replaced with "guilty until proven innocent."
In this case, the guilty is simply being incorrect and inconsistent. You could easily say benefit of the doubt on just about any 'divine' prophet or book.
 
Some Proof

How do we really know those things happened? How do you know Muhammed was lying? It's all biased thinking on your part.
No, it is not all biased thinking on my part. I sense some biased thinking on your part, though. Try pointing your bias detector at yourself! How do I know Muhammed was lying? First off, he lived more than 500 years after Jesus' death, so he wasn't an eyewitness. (See next point.)

Sources where?

The Babylonian Talmud, a Jewish Rabbinical work speaks of Jesus (by the Hebrew name Yeshu, of course), His death, and His supernatural acts.
It says: "On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, 'He is going forth to be stoned because he has practised sorcery and enticed Israel to apostacy. Any one who can say anything in his favour, let him come forward and plead on his behalf.' But since nothing was brought forward in his favour he was hanged on the eve of the Passover!"
(Babylonian Talmud, Sanhedrin 43a)

One does not have to assume that these miracles happened, but if you insist that miracles can never happen, you show nothing but bias.

Another non-biblical source that confirms the death of Jesus is the Roman historian Tacitus, who wrote, "Christus, the founder of the name [Christians] was put to death by Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judaea in the reign of Tiberius."
(Annals, book 15)

(EDIT: There are other ancient sources as well. Jewish historian Josephus mentions Jesus as one who was executed. The Greek satirist Lucian of Samosata mentions Christ as "that crucified sophist.")

You have to assume no more than the miracles with Jesus.
As the Talmud, a source hostile to Jesus, indicates, they really saw Jesus perform deeds that were extraordinary and they even referred to them as “sorcery.” Muhammed claimed that it really did appear that Jesus died, while denying that actually happened. He practically confirmed the other accounts! He had to invent a miracle to get out from under the weight of the evidence.

In this case, the guilty is simply being incorrect and inconsistent. You could easily say benefit of the doubt on just about any 'divine' prophet or book.
Well apparently the Bible correctly stated that Jesus died! The Bible cannot be described as "simply incorrect" unless you assume that it is incorrect. Are you saying that it is incorrect on all points?
 
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GhostAnime

Searching for her...
How do I know Muhammed was lying? First off, he lived more than 500 years after Jesus' death, so he wasn't an eyewitness.
And Jesus made miracles.

but if you insist that miracles can never happen, you show nothing but bias.
I merely telling you it's not a one-way street.

they really saw Jesus perform deeds that were extraordinary and they even referred to them as “sorcery.”
If an eyewitness is all that's needed to prove somebody did extraordinary things, how much are you willing to bet the Islamic religion doesn't have the same or similar support?

Are you saying that it is incorrect on all points?
I am saying I can't find anything divine about it.
 
And Jesus made miracles.
Are you assuming He didn't?

I merely telling you it's not a one-way street.
Care to explain what you mean by "not a one-way street"?

If an eyewitness is all that's needed to prove somebody did extraordinary things, how much are you willing to bet the Islamic religion doesn't have the same or similar support?
Does Islam have the same kind of support? We need to see that support before we can say that. Nobody can simply "bet" they'd find it. Anyone can "bet" anything, but a bet is hypothetical. A bet is about as valid as a guess.

And the Babylonian Talmud is not "an eyewitness." It was written by many Rabbis. The Talmud is a reliable source for historical Jewish culture, thought, beliefs, and experiences. You can question what they saw, but if you assume that all reports of miracles are false because miracles are impossible, you would be arguing in a circle.

I am saying I can't find anything divine about it.
And perhaps you can't find anything divine about the Bible because you simply have blind faith in the critics who say there can't be anything reliable at all in the Bible.

But just so you know, the only report of miracles by Muhammed comes several centuries later by a Muslim source called the Hadith. If you are going to be skeptical of the Bible's reports of Jesus' miracle, to be consistent you must also treat these with skepticism. You have a right to be skeptical, but you can't pick and choose when to be skeptical.
 

GhostAnime

Searching for her...
Just so you know.. I'm skeptical of pretty much any theistic religion. I'm playing devil's advocate.

Are you assuming He didn't?
What I mean here is that if we are going to believe extraordinary things solely only eyewitness accounts, it makes about as much sense as a guy with some overall knowledge of how we should live and die (sounds like someone familiar?).

Care to explain what you mean by "not a one-way street"?
What I mean is that I personally believe Islam makes about as much sense as Christianity in a "prove it's the right direction" aspect. I am not saying Muhammad was most likely lying or that Jesus couldn't do anything extraordinary, but I'm not buying either because I consider it near impossible to trust.

Does Islam have the same kind of support? We need to see that support before we can say that. Nobody can simply "bet" they'd find it. Anyone can "bet" anything, but a bet is hypothetical. A bet is about as valid as a guess.
Fine. I'm not going to bet then and I do not have the knowledge of the history of Islam to continue further with this point, but what I wanted to leave you with here is that I see no difference in logic used in both of these religions. Both have shaky grounds in many areas, and I honestly think if somebody's going to choose between the other, it's just going to be preference. Even if one is seemingly more logical or reliable, it doesn't even mean it's right, because they're both based on guys doing crazy things 2,000 years ago. Trying to cast doubt on the other isn't going to help your case anymore than vice versa.

And perhaps you can't find anything divine about the Bible because you simply have blind faith in the critics who say there can't be anything reliable at all in the Bible.
I've read the book. I can't take it seriously even if I wanted to. There are too many things I'd have to do in order to consider the book anymore than a book. Ridiculous laws not even I can fathom that should have existed at all and quite frankly I've grown to dislike the God portrayed in the Bible anyhow (but that's just me). I just can't find a reason to take it seriously. Critics don't even matter in this case; if I don't have a reason to, I just don't.
 
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Profesco

gone gently
Because I'm skimming in order to make it to class on time, I may have missed something, but it almost looks like we're trying to prove the Bible's veracity about supernatural events, or "miracles," based on the fact that non-Bible sources have also stated that Jesus died.

Should I take the time to mention here that everyone dies, and it would be far more miraculous to have sources claiming the exact opposite... or have I completely misinterpreted and should just get to class? =P
 

GhostAnime

Searching for her...
You know what.. you may be on to something.
 

Tyrant Tar

Well-Known Member
Proving Jesus died would prove there was in fact a historical Jesus. So there is at least some truth to the Bible.
 

GhostAnime

Searching for her...
There's pointing out a truth in the Bible, and then there's saying most of the things in the Bible are reliable.
 

J.T.

ಠ_ಠ
This bugs me.

One does not have to assume that these miracles happened, but if you insist that miracles can never happen, you show nothing but bias.

How is it biased? I don't have any reason to believe that something so outrageous and reality-denying has ever happened. I could get a bunch of people who'll swear that they've seen Criss Angel teleport from the top of a building to the ground, but what would that prove?

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. "Eyewitness accounts" in a number of books, written 2,000 years ago, filled to the brim with contradictions, does not qualify as "extraordinary evidence", especially when the only only reason we have to believe that it's 100% true is its own say-so.

The Bible cannot be described as "simply incorrect" unless you assume that it is incorrect.

The Bible claims that pi is 3, rabbits chew their cud, and bats are birds. I don't have to assume anything to know that those are incorrect.

And perhaps you can't find anything divine about the Bible because you simply have blind faith in the critics who say there can't be anything reliable at all in the Bible.

Perhaps you're being a bit presumptuous and arrogant to assume we're atheists out of ignorance.

Perhaps.
 

Profesco

gone gently
Proving Jesus died would prove there was in fact a historical Jesus. So there is at least some truth to the Bible.

Oh, well, yeah, that's perfectly fine. Jesus's existence is not the matter. I was just worried we were making the fallacious statement of "because Jesus existed, everything said by the Bible is true." Jesus can exist without the stories of his miracles being true, in much the same way Arnold Schwarzenegger can exist without us all really being in danger of robot assassins from the future (I would have used an analogy more directly similar, like stories of Pecos Bill or Paul Bunyan and Babe the blue ox, but a Terminator reference seemed much more amusing). Regular leaps are lots of fun; logical ones are not.

But really, it was a small quibble and not important to the things at hand. ^_^;
 

ChedWick

Well-Known Member
Oh, well, yeah, that's perfectly fine. Jesus's existence is not the matter. I was just worried we were making the fallacious statement of "because Jesus existed, everything said by the Bible is true." Jesus can exist without the stories of his miracles being true, in much the same way Arnold Schwarzenegger can exist without us all really being in danger of robot assassins from the future (I would have used an analogy more directly similar, like stories of Pecos Bill or Paul Bunyan and Babe the blue ox, but a Terminator reference seemed much more amusing). Regular leaps are lots of fun; logical ones are not.

But really, it was a small quibble and not important to the things at hand. ^_^;


Not to mention "I'll be back" fits well with Jesus coming back after death on the cross :D
 

Profesco

gone gently
Not to mention "I'll be back" fits well with Jesus coming back after death on the cross :D

The Terminator movies are totally an allegory of Jesus's life. His real life. Word.
 

Icup

Well-Known Member
Islam was spread by the sword in the first several hundred years because Muhammed was not a true prophet of God. He needed the sword because he promoted a blind faith.

He claimed to be a prophet of God, but he spoke against prior claim that Jesus didn't die (despite the fact that Muhammed was decidedly not an eyewitness of events that took place several hundred years before he was alive), and then had the audacity to say that it only appeared that Jesus died. Yet he still claimed Jesus was a prophet even though he refused to believe that Jesus spoke many of the things the New Testament had to say.

(Well, kinda short, anyway.)

Blind faith? I swear to God that's actually the most ignorant thing I have heard all day. How do Muslims have blind faith? Muhammed (PBUH) claimed to be a prophet of God without proof? If that was the case I'd most likely be an atheist.

The miracles performed by Moses and Jesus to be believed in...today! Requires faith...you're just gonna have to believe what the scriptures say. But the miracle that prophet Muhammed (PBUH) has brought with him require LOGIC and not blind faith at all.

The miracle that Muhammed (PBUH) has brought with him was the Quran itself. What makes the Quran a miracle and the word of God? Simply because there is nothing like it...some claim that Muhammed (PBUH) was the author of the book itself but that doesn't make sense because he was an illiterate man. But that's up to you to believe or not...because that is something that is simply a minor factor, the real miracle is the CONTENT of the Quran.

It has FACTS in it!!! FACTS!!! That it was simply impossible for a man at that time to know or even imagine such things. In the Quran there were claims that the human embryo is similar to a leech...The human embryo not only physically looks like a leech but also has a function that is similar to it, it feeds of its host. The Quran talks about the mountains as serving as pegs to stabilize the Earth, it talks about the seas not mixing water as if there was a barrier and also about the levels of the sky atmosphere, stratosphere etc. All of those stuff were recently discovered...now how can a man that lived in a desert 1400 years ago make such claims?!?!?! That's just one of the miracles of the Quran.

Another miracle of the Quran is it's AUTHENTICITY! Something that every holy scripture was unable to have...is the Old\New testament authentic? Is the Torah authentic? If they have been changed or translated or any other form of change or innovation to it. God himself in the Quran says that he will ENSURE that the Quran will not be changed at all...not even a single letter to it. And it still hasn't been changed through 1400 years.

It is LITERALLY flawless! There is no mistake in it, orthographic and grammar wise. It literally unique, it was sent down during a time where the people were experts in the language of Arabic, and the Arabic language has 3 different forms of speech, and in the Quran all three have been mixed together (I do not know much about it because I myself do not talk Arabic), and God has challenged humanity to recreate something similar to it. At first He said create a book like it, it wasn't done. Then He said create a chapter similar to it, it wasn't done. And finally He said, create a verse like it, and still wasn't done. Another challenge was to find a mistake in the Quran, and ALL of those challenges are still living on, 1400 years from now and still the challenges are still living.

People from all over the world have tried to disproved it since 1400 years ago till today and it still hasn't being done. A single mistake, or the creation of a verse like the Quran to be created or even finding a contradiction is to be found to discredit the Quran. Still today it hasn't been done...THAT is the miracle that Muhammed (PBUH) has brought with him. Unlike the Bible and the Testaments that require blind faith about the miracles that have been performed thousands of years ago...the Quran has a base and is a living miracle. Now I challenge you to discredit it.
 

Profesco

gone gently
Icup, are you Muslim?
 

shadow wolf

The one and only!
Icup, are you Muslim?

Probably is. I'd like to see some evidence of the Qu'ran being more logical than other books of religion.
 

GhostAnime

Searching for her...
He just sounds like TheFightingPikachu except in support of the other religion.
 

Icup

Well-Known Member
Icup, are you Muslim?
Yes, I am.

He just sounds like TheFightingPikachu except in support of the other religion.

How do I sound like Pikachu? He was coming up with baseless arguments, I can bet on ANYTHING that he hasn't read either the Quran or about the life of Prophet Muhammed (PBUH), if he has I highly doubt he'd call him an extremist.
 
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J.T.

ಠ_ಠ
How do I sound like Pikachu? He was coming up with baseless arguments,

Not like you. You just make baseless claims. Totally different.

Blind faith? I swear to God that's actually the most ignorant thing I have heard all day. How do Muslims have blind faith?

I have yet to see a single religion that does not rely on blind faith over logic. You act like your religion's the only one accused of such.

Muhammed (PBUH) claimed to be a prophet of God without proof?

Your point? Jesus claimed to be the Son of God, and according to the Bible, he had proof.

The miracle that Muhammed (PBUH) has brought with him was the Quran itself.

Some miracle.

What makes the Quran a miracle and the word of God? Simply because there is nothing like it...

Which is precisely what every other religion says about their own holy book. What makes yours so special?

some claim that Muhammed (PBUH) was the author of the book itself but that doesn't make sense because he was an illiterate man.

According to the Quran, correct? If Mohammed had wanted to add to his claim of divinity, or simply just wanted people to start following his beliefs, he could easily lie in the Quran and say he was illiterate.

It has FACTS in it!!! FACTS!!!

Holy ****ing ****, that's completely unprecedented! I mean, books containing facts? Surely you jest.

That it was simply impossible for a man at that time to know or even imagine such things.

Similar claims have been made about the Bible.

In the Quran there were claims that the human embryo is similar to a leech...The human embryo not only physically looks like a leech

Because it's inconceivable that someone would ever see a fetus. Also, you can say that something is "similar to" another thing without the two looking anything alike.

but also has a function that is similar to it, it feeds of its host.

Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that one out. Pregnant women need to eat more, feel weaker, and experience all sorts of symptoms that would lead to comparisons of leeches.

The Quran talks about the mountains as serving as pegs to stabilize the Earth,

And? Logic back then probably went "it's really big, it's really heavy, maybe it's used to hold it down". I don't know the context of the quote, though, so I can't say for sure.

it talks about the seas not mixing water as if there was a barrier

And back then, freshwater and saltwater never met in areas where people could examine it. Ever.

and also about the levels of the sky atmosphere, stratosphere etc.

One, I highly doubt they used those exact words.
Two, anyone who had ever been in a very high place - say, climbing a mountain - would realize, whoa, things change when you climb higher. You get less oxygen, lower air pressure, etc. I don't think it would take a lot of thinking to gather "well, if things happen as you go up, more things must happen as you go up more!"

All of those stuff were recently discovered...

For rather loose definitions of the word "recently".

Another miracle of the Quran is it's AUTHENTICITY! Something that every holy scripture was unable to have...

We know the Quran is authentic because the Quran says so, and we know the Quran is true because the Quran says so, and oh my god the logic is making me dizzy.

God himself in the Quran says that he will ENSURE that the Quran will not be changed at all...not even a single letter to it.

Clearly, He didn't do a great job.

It is LITERALLY flawless! There is no mistake in it,

Are you kidding me? There's an example of a contradiction in the very first freaking post of this topic! This one page lists over a hundred of them!

orthographic and grammar wise.

Well, I'd damn well hope any well-written book would be grammatically correct.

It literally unique,

Depending on your definition of unique, the same could be said of any book, factual or fictional.

it was sent down during a time where the people were experts in the language of Arabic,

Shocker.

and the Arabic language has 3 different forms of speech, and in the Quran all three have been mixed together (I do not know much about it because I myself do not talk Arabic)

And?

and God has challenged humanity to recreate something similar to it.

The Bible. Or hell, any religious text.

At first He said create a book like it, it wasn't done. Then He said create a chapter similar to it, it wasn't done. And finally He said, create a verse like it, and still wasn't done.

Really. Explain to me how the Bible is not similar. It's absolutely ridiculous to claim that no one in the history of the world has ever created even a single verse that is in any way similar to the Quran. The Bible itself is loaded with similar verses.

Another challenge was to find a mistake in the Quran,

Just because you refuse to see them, doesn't mean they're not there.

People from all over the world have tried to disproved it since 1400 years ago till today and it still hasn't being done.

Once again, it's easy to claim it hasn't been disproven if you ignore every argument presented.

A single mistake,

How about hundreds?

or the creation of a verse like the Quran to be created

Again, explain to me how the Bible does not fit this criteria, and explain to me how not having a known copycat book proves it to be true.

or even finding a contradiction is to be found to discredit the Quran.

Well, to be fair, you're technically right. There isn't a contradiction, there's several.

But okay, if contradictions don't count, how about scientific and biological inaccuracies? The Quran claims that man is created from a fluid between the loins and ribs (but semen originates in the testicles); Sura 16:66 says that cow's milk comes from between the excrement and blood of the cow's abdomen (um, what?); Sura 16:69 says that honey comes out of a bee's abdomen; Sura 6:38 claims that all animals and flying beings form societies like ours; Sura 25:45-46 claims that the movement of the sun causes shadows (supporting a geocentric universe model, rather than the correct heliocentric one); and according to Sura 65:12, "It is God who hath created seven heavens and as many earths" (I'd love to know what the other six Earths are; if they mean the other planets, then they got the number wrong).

THAT is the miracle that Muhammed (PBUH) has brought with him.

Some miracle.

Unlike the Bible and the Testaments that require blind faith

Face it, you use just as much blind faith as any other religious person.

about the miracles that have been performed thousands of years ago...the Quran has a base and is a living miracle.

You have yet to validly prove the Quran is a miracle in itself.

Now I challenge you to discredit it.

I'm not going to pretend that a single, 45-minute forum post is going to disprove an entire religion, but eh.
 
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