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January 21st: XY&Z011 - Noibat and Floette! An Encounter in the Wind!!

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Locormus

Can we please get the older, old forum back?
Let me ask you something. How can Noibat be a Gliscor rip-off. Gliscor wasn't hatched, so that is impossible.

Moves Noibat/Noivern
1. Take Down
2. Supersonic
3. Dragon Claw
4. Hurricane

Because when they first got added to Ash's team, they were pretty much both helpless batlike creatures that begged Ash for attention or tear-up otherwise?

Not to mention the comparable movesets (outside of the Dragon-typing).. with moves such as Screech, Leech Life and Fang-based moves..

Also, Noibat/Noivern can't learn Take Down, so when Tackle is upgraded, the likely suspect is Giga Impact.. Now.. Which of Ash's Pokémon had Giga Impact? I can't remember..

So:
- Supersonic -> Boomburst
- Tackle -> Giga Impact
- Wind move
- Dragon-type move?

This seems awfully limited though, considering it leaves no room for any real coverage outside of two Normal-type moves.. The thing has amazing options like Flamethrower, Psychic, Solarbeam, Dark Pulse, Shadow Ball, Moonlight (recovery!), Focus Blast..
 

dman_dustin

Well-Known Member
But, anyways, I can't agree with you on your view of experience gaining. Dealing damage to another Pokémon is not the only way to gain experience and be evolution ready. In the anime is not all about attacking, as I said before, resisting attacks is also a form of experience gaining.
The only reason I would question this is because the only logical thing it would help with is being able to resist more damage, makes you tougher, not stronger.

Taking a lot of hits doesn't help improve the strength of your tackle, for example only using the attacks.

Goomy however can't increase the damage of its bide though that's dependent on the enemy.

So I think you mixed it up. Goomy could get stronger by taking a lot of hits, but Noibat wouldn't get stronger, Both would get tougher though.

But I just don't know if toughness would help a Pokemon evolve or would strength or both.

If we assume a Pokemon can force itself from the stress of battle, then obviously toughness is a key factor, because in the moment a Pokemon doesn't evolve to overpower the opponent, its too keep from fainting and not giving up.

But I wonder if strength has something to do with it, because while determination and resilience would come from toughness. Actually reaching deep inside for it to evolve might require evolution.

None of this really matters though.

Also other things, I mean some Pokémon could also evolve because of "age" and not because they battled frequently.

I guess but Goomy was SO inexperienced, I cannot imagine it wouldn't learn a third move if it was old. Especially since it learns Bubble, Absorb, Tackle before bide and learns dragon breath BEFORE rain dance.

Now this could just be preference choice by the writers, but it would make more sense if Goomy was barely hatched with those moves.

Having only those moves and have Goomy be a seasoned/old Pokemon just doesn't make sense to me.

Even in places of peace a lot of other Pokemon have more than what Goomy had.

It's possible Goomy had no reason to learn other moves, but I can't imagine Goomy being so traumatized if it was so much older than Noibat at their respective ages when they evolve.

You could argue that Goomy's peacefulness would contribute to it being traumatized, and Goomy's actions against Team Rocket a sign of maturity but would the writers go in depth like that. Rather than just "A weak Pokemon being traumatized by a traumatizing event"

Plus even if Goomy was so much older than Noibat and I know this goes back to what you said, but I just don't think something regarded is weak would've evolved the way it did without criticism, especially when I think respectively Noibat has to already been much stronger.

If Ash's newly hatched Binacle were to take down a Gym Leader's Pokemon the episode after it hatched, and was strong, why would immaturity prevent Binacle from evolving.

See I think the problems in regards to this and why its hard to argue when there's so many contradictory arguments being thrust out for why Noibat couldn't evolve.

1. It's not strong enough....neither was Goomy.
2. Then it's not old enough......but if its strong, why would that matter?
3. It's not developed enough.....have you seen Pokemon? Should I list the multitude of Pokemon that didn't develop very much and still evolved quickly. How about the Pokemon with heavy development that took forever to evolve?
4. It's hatched though......again if its strong enough....
5. But its not strong.....it dealt noticeable damage to Celosia's Drapion and took a very powerful hit from Byrony's Bisharp.
6. They aren't strong......yes because having evolved Pokemon means your weak.
7. Team Rocket........Yes because Ash and company frequently struggle against team Rocket right? Pretty sure they can hold their own barely with Team Flare and Ash kind of needed Ash Greninja and even then it didn't outright knock them out. Had it been Team Rocket they would've blasted off.
8. THE WRITERS/PRODUCERS.........*inflicts fatal physical damage to self*

So final thing to say until we get more information: If you don't believe Noibat could evolve, that's fine, if it doesn't more development for Noibat, maybe, we have no idea if its evolution will be like Gligar or like Froakie/Frogadier.

If it doesn't evolve here which appears to be a Gligar like evolution episode, then I expect a rushed Froakie/Frogadier like evolution.

I could be wrong. But you know if Noibat does evolve here, I guess I'd be the only one that doesn't find it unexpected or out of place. If it doesn't, that could be a win as well.

I'm pretty much the only one who can have a win-win situation here regardless of what happens in this episode.

Because when they first got added to Ash's team, they were pretty much both helpless batlike creatures that begged Ash for attention or tear-up otherwise?

Not to mention the comparable movesets (outside of the Dragon-typing).. with moves such as Screech, Leech Life and Fang-based moves..

Also, Noibat/Noivern can't learn Take Down, so when Tackle is upgraded, the likely suspect is Giga Impact.. Now.. Which of Ash's Pokémon had Giga Impact? I can't remember..

But it makes no sense to assume tackle is anything other than a placeholder move rather than a move to be upgraded to Giga Impact.

Moves that could replace tackle-

Wing Attack/Bite/Aerial Ace/Steel Wing/Acrobatics/U-turn/Wild Charge/Fly/Outrage/Sky Attack.
 
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Master_Tyrell

Well-Known Member
The only reason I would question this is because the only logical thing it would help with is being able to resist more damage, makes you tougher, not stronger.

Taking a lot of hits doesn't help improve the strength of your tackle, for example only using the attacks.

So, if I Pokémon is more of a tank in battle and he's able to resist a lot of moves, and weaken his opponent little by little, that doesn't make him strong? I don't feel like strength is only about how much damage your Tackle can do, but also how well you can resist the opponents attacks. But that's just my opinion on that, I don't know the factors for evolution since there's clearly not much of a consensus.

Having only those moves and have Goomy be a seasoned/old Pokemon just doesn't make sense to me.

I do not know what the writers ideas were when they chose those moves, but considering his backstory, plus his title as the weakest Dragon-Type, I'd say they purposely chose those moves to emphasize those things. Still, it's just speculation so it's completely alright if it's wrong.

Anyways, I'm not trying to say Noibat is not worthy of evolution right now, he could be but it doesn't seem like that to me. Goomy had determination to become strong, so that could've influenced it (of course the whole plot in favor of a fast evolution as well). Noibat just doesn't have that going on for it, and I can see why many people want more with Noibat before an evolution, myself included.
 

dman_dustin

Well-Known Member
and I can see why many people want more with Noibat before an evolution, myself included.

Of course, but people are acting like I don't want that.

That's not my point. It's ABOUT what I expect because of how many episodes Noibat has been around, and its only NOW getting focus.

Logically that means the writers/producers DO NOT care about Noibat.

I don't want a rushed evolution before the league, I want Noibat to have been gotten focus , evolved and have Noivern beat Wulfric for the iceberg badge. But that's not what is going to happen.

Either Noibat evolves here, and Noivern beats Wulfric for the iceberg badge with little focus, or Noibat doesn't show up against Wulfric, or evolves against Wulfric, or evolves right before the league, I don't want ANY of that, but it's what's going to happen.

It's not about I want. It's what I expect.

IT TOOK 24 episodes before Noibat got any reasonable focus in the Terminus episode, 24! (approximately depending on how you count the gap).

What happened during those 24 episodes

A. 8 Filler episode
B. 6 episodes devoted to Ash and NOT Noibat
C. 6 episodes devoted Serena
D. 1 technically not filler devoted to Clemont
E. And 2 episodes of technical non filler devoted to overarching plot of the series.

That makes the Terminus episode the 24th episode, so 23 episodes without reasonable focus.

HAD Noibat received focus in the 2nd, 3rd, 4th episodes of the XY&Z series, maybe it wouldn't be so bad. But we GOT nothing.

The worst part Serena caught a Pokemon 8-9 episodes AFTER the Sky relay episode and it has received even MORE focus than Noibat.

So how the hell can anyone expect ME to believe the writers will treat Noibat, properly? When its obvious that it just exists for the sake of existing. I mean if the sole purpose to why Ash has a Noibat is because Noivern, then it ultimately doesn't matter if Noibat receives focus or not, does it?
They would create a sizable gap from capture to evolution and evolve it.

But there's also one other thing to consider. Yuka Tersaki. If she can't continue to voice Noibat then Noibat needs to evolve as quickly as possible, not sure if Japanese can without effort change Voice Actors because one doesn't want to do it anymore. But I'm only bringing it up as a maybe possibility.

But ultimately no matter what I'm always going to be left with: What would've killed the writers giving Noibat focus earlier? Seriously if THIS is NOT an evolution episode, and make some minor tweaks to the script in regards to Talonflame and Greninja (Eevee and Puni Chan). WHY COULDN"T this episode have aired between Chespin/Bunnelby and Braixen breaking her twig.

Or right before Eevee's capture. How much XY&Z specific is this episode that it could've only aired now? Did Ash really need to have access to Ash Greninja at this point? Did Puni-Chan need to exist to cheer up Noibat? Did Talonflame need to use Brave Bird to protect Noibat?

And would there be a reason for why there might be a special Floette that could've only came out in the XY&Z series.

The only thing that makes sense that would comfortably answer these question with one event. It couldn't have happened before because Noibat evolves. Otherwise you will never be able to convince me this episode HAD to air in the XY&Z series AT THIS moment in time.
 

Master_Tyrell

Well-Known Member
That's not my point. It's ABOUT what I expect because of how many episodes Noibat has been around, and its only NOW getting focus.

I understand, but if it doesn't matter where this episode took place, then there's no problem with it taking place now. We don't know what's going to happen after this episode regarding Noibat, so we are left with speculation and opinions. Maybe people will think there was no reason to have waited so long for an evolution for Noibat but, the opposite can happen as well and people might think that it was good they waited. Still, there doesn't have to always be a reason for the things that are going on like the Floette and those episodes you mentioned. In the end, either people will like it or not like it.

Another thing, I notice you usually want things to happen how you envision them. It's not an attack, it's always nice to have an idea of how you want things to go on, but just because things don't meet your expectations it doesn't mean it had to be done a different way. The writers don't have any obligation to convince you on how things play out, they don't need to convince anyone as to why it had to happen like that, we just have choose to accept it or not.
 

Locormus

Can we please get the older, old forum back?
But it makes no sense to assume tackle is anything other than a placeholder move rather than a move to be upgraded to Giga Impact.

Moves that could replace tackle:

Wing Attack/Bite/Aerial Ace/Steel Wing/Acrobatics/U-turn/Wild Charge/Fly/Outrage/Sky Attack.

To quote yoursellf:

"Also I do believe in evolution of moves to stronger attacks.

- Ember to Flamethrower.
- Flame Wheel to Flare Blitz"

Aka: Weak Special Fire-type move > Stronger Special Fire-type move and physical comparable counterparts.

So, you do believe in the evolution of moves to stronger attacks, give two very sound examples, but when I do so, the only difference being Tackle -> Giga Impact being that these are Normal-type moves, and suddenly your innate respons is: "NOPE! Makes no sense!" That's BS..

There's no reason why in the logic you yourself believe that a tackling move of one type can change into a biting move of another type, there's literally zero correlation. Why argue for Supersonic -> Boomburst? I mean, it makes no sense to assume it's anything other than a placeholder move for a Dragon- or Flying-type move.

I mean I agreed with you, applied the same reasoning, but you turn it around on me for no apparent reason aside from counterargueing for the sake of counterargueing.

Look, Froakie had Pound and it upgraded to Aerial Ace, (a type change), but Greninja's Aerial Ace is just a few succesive Pounds in a row. Tackle -> Bite would make absolutely no sense.

The only ones that would make sense on your list would be Wild Charge, Sky Attack and U-turn/Aerial Ace/Acrobatics depending on how it was animated.

I'm still left wondering why they went with Aerial Ace and not Acrobatics with Frogadier.. Considering what it does:
- Move A: The user nimbly strikes the target.
- Move B: The user confounds the target with speed, then slashes.

They went with the move that specifically references a samurai, cutting technique.. Instead of the one move where nimbleness is specified which is what Greninja showcases when using the move.. o.0
 

Blaze Master X

The Fallen Hero
Let me ask you something. How can Noibat be a Gliscor rip-off. Gliscor wasn't hatched, so that is impossible.

Moves Noibat/Noivern
1. Take Down
2. Supersonic
3. Dragon Claw
4. Hurricane

Noibat -> Noivern
-Supersonic -> Boomburst
-Tackle -> Outrage
-Air Cutter or Air Slash
-Wing Attack or Dragon Claw
 

ShadowForce720

Well-Known Member
Noibat -> Noivern
-Supersonic -> Boomburst
-Tackle -> Outrage
-Air Cutter or Air Slash
-Wing Attack or Dragon Claw

I don't think Noibat/ Noivern needs to have 2 flying type moves or 2 Dragon type moves. I think it would be better if it's move set wound up being this
Noivern:
Boomburst
Flying-type move
Dragon-type move
Type coverage move

Now in terms of moves that would provide coverage for it's weaknesses it can learn these moves as possible options: Steel Wing, Iron Tail, Flamethrower, Heat Wave, Focus Blast, Brick Break, Toxic, Solar Beam, Sunny Day.

Now although Steel Wing or Iron Tail would be ideal since it covers multiple weakeness that Noivern has the problem is Pikachu already knows Iron Tail, while Talonflame knows Steel Wing so I think it's unlikely that they would give Noivern Steel Wing or Iron tail. Solar Beam would be an interesting choice for it if another one of Ash's pokemon doesn't pick up the move before Noivern gets it. Toxic I can't really see Noivern learning this. While if Noivern gets Sunny Day it would be best if it got Solar Beam or a Fire-type move to go with it.

So if Noivern winds up having a move that provides type coverage I think it will probably be one of these; Flamethrower, Heat Wave, Focus Blast, Brick Break, or Solar Beam. Of course Noivern could always pick up a status or recovery move.
 

dman_dustin

Well-Known Member
So, you do believe in the evolution of moves to stronger attacks, give two very sound examples, but when I do so, the only difference being Tackle -> Giga Impact being that these are Normal-type moves, and suddenly your innate respons is: "NOPE! Makes no sense!" That's BS..
My examples were in regards to the Pokemon's type. Tepig being a fire type Infernape being a fire type.

It makes no sense for Noivern to have upgraded two of its normal type to stronger equivalents. Boomburst is acceptable because its what you think of most in regards to the Pokemon.....but 2 of the same type, just opposite to each other. Never have I seen a Pokemon of Ash's with basically both hyper beam and giga impact while also being a completely different type.

Difference between Gliscor? Gliscor had no choice but to learn the moves it did. It had no decent ground or flying types at the time it was caught. But one thing, Gliscor all had different type moves.

Steel, Fire, Normal, Bug, rock, all moves that dealt damage. But none of the types repeated (for actual damaging attacks). Sure there was screech but it used only once, and giga impact happened much later.

What you're basically asking is a Pokemon that is flying dragon to waste 2 moves on different normal type moves, one physical and one special when the case is it can learn more flying and dragon type moves than Gliscor did in regards to its typing.

That's why it makes no sense. Either Boomburst OR Giga Impact, but not both. Well at least I'm sure they wouldn't do that.

There's no reason why in the logic you yourself believe that a tackling move of one type can change into a biting move of another type, there's literally zero correlation. Why argue for Supersonic -> Boomburst? I mean, it makes no sense to assume it's anything other than a placeholder move for a Dragon- or Flying-type move.

There's a reason I chose bite, because I was choosing physical moves that requires physical contact with its body on the opponent. Bite can be seen as tackling your opponent with teeth, at least with Noibat. But yes I will admit feeling uncomfortable putting it down. The rest of the moves where physical non normal types that would better complement Boomburst.

I'm not saying your wrong in that Noivern couldn't have both. I'm saying it makes no sense to give a flying/dragon Pokemon two opposing normal type moves, opposing meaning offensively. Physical and special. Had Boomburst been a flying or dragon type, I probably wouldn't have even argued with you on this.

It just makes no sense the writers/producers wouldn't BE as creative with Noivern's moveset as it was with Gliscor.

2 opposing normal types though? Even giving it a dragon and flying moves really wouldn't change how limited it was. I mean Noivern with 2 strong normal attacks, physical and special, despite the tons of other types of moves it can learn?

Well okay then. Noivern with Boomburst and Giga Impact then.
 
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XXD17

Draco rex
To quote yoursellf:

"Also I do believe in evolution of moves to stronger attacks.

- Ember to Flamethrower.
- Flame Wheel to Flare Blitz"

Aka: Weak Special Fire-type move > Stronger Special Fire-type move and physical comparable counterparts.

So, you do believe in the evolution of moves to stronger attacks, give two very sound examples, but when I do so, the only difference being Tackle -> Giga Impact being that these are Normal-type moves, and suddenly your innate respons is: "NOPE! Makes no sense!" That's BS..

There's no reason why in the logic you yourself believe that a tackling move of one type can change into a biting move of another type, there's literally zero correlation. Why argue for Supersonic -> Boomburst? I mean, it makes no sense to assume it's anything other than a placeholder move for a Dragon- or Flying-type move.

I mean I agreed with you, applied the same reasoning, but you turn it around on me for no apparent reason aside from counterargueing for the sake of counterargueing.

Look, Froakie had Pound and it upgraded to Aerial Ace, (a type change), but Greninja's Aerial Ace is just a few succesive Pounds in a row. Tackle -> Bite would make absolutely no sense.

The only ones that would make sense on your list would be Wild Charge, Sky Attack and U-turn/Aerial Ace/Acrobatics depending on how it was animated.

I'm still left wondering why they went with Aerial Ace and not Acrobatics with Frogadier.. Considering what it does:
- Move A: The user nimbly strikes the target.
- Move B: The user confounds the target with speed, then slashes.

They went with the move that specifically references a samurai, cutting technique.. Instead of the one move where nimbleness is specified which is what Greninja showcases when using the move.. o.0

I can't help but think that the reason is because "Tsubame geishi" sounds cooler than "somersault". It's like a special technique as opposed to backflips and gymnastics.
 

Akashin

Well-Known Member
I can't help but think that the reason is because "Tsubame geishi" sounds cooler than "somersault". It's like a special technique as opposed to backflips and gymnastics.

It's also worth noting that on the whole, Greninja's moveset references samurai as much as it does ninja, given Cut (and in the case of other Greninja, Night Slash).
 

Lord Trollbias

Y'all Salty Bishes
Noibat->Noivern
Supersonic->Boomburst
Air Slash(->Hurricane?)
Dragon Claw
Bite->Outrage
2 Special 2 Physical. 2 Dragon 1 Fyling + Boomburst is commonly associated with Noivern
 
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Mr. Reloaded

Cause a pirate is free
Noibat -> Noivern
Supersonic -> Boomburst
Tackle -> Super Fang
Wing Attack -> Air Slash or Hurricane
Dragon Pulse/Draco Meteor

Boomburst is practically a given, and this episode will likely give him some sort of wind base move so I'm confident I guessed half right.
 

dman_dustin

Well-Known Member
Why do people want super fang, you do realize that super fang is ONLY effective as a move that's used first, right?

Afterwards its pretty pointless and it would never realistically be able to used as any kind of finisher. Would prefer a move not so conditional.

If it was Hyper Fang, then hell yes, but hyper fang can't be learned by the Noibat line.
 

Locormus

Can we please get the older, old forum back?
Why do people want super fang, you do realize that super fang is ONLY effective as a move that's used first, right?

Afterwards its pretty pointless and it would never realistically be able to used as any kind of finisher. Would prefer a move not so conditional.

If it was Hyper Fang, then hell yes, but hyper fang can't be learned by the Noibat line.

It's a 50% damage output.. Hit once, and Noivern only has half the battle left. I like that idea as I have a tough time imagening anything taking a Boomburst at 50% and still being okay afterwards..
 

AlexTogekiss

Well-Known Member
Are people discussing the game's effect of the moves to especifically? Pff, the writers can make Super Fang very strong or extremely weak.
P.S: What is all the talk about Goomy's movepool? The anime and the games aren't the same, if that's the case when did Greninja as Frogadier learned Smack Down or Bounce; or Talonflame as Fletchinder learned Natural Gift? Sheeeesh.
 

Master_Tyrell

Well-Known Member
Are people discussing the game's effect of the moves to especifically? Pff, the writers can make Super Fang very strong or extremely weak.
P.S: What is all the talk about Goomy's movepool? The anime and the games aren't the same, if that's the case when did Greninja as Frogadier learned Smack Down or Bounce; or Talonflame as Fletchinder learned Natural Gift? Sheeeesh.

Oh, the Goomy moveset is because dman thinks that no old Pokémon would have only 2 moves to use, more so when Goomy has more moves to learn. But, apart from the whole anime not being the same as the game, Goomy is considered the weakest Dragon-Type, so I think a weak moveset can help represent that too. Not that Bide is weak, though, but it depends on the opponent's strength not their own.

Why do people want super fang, you do realize that super fang is ONLY effective as a move that's used first, right?

Didn't Dawn's Pachirisu have Super Fang? It's been a while since I last saw those episode, so it might've been Hyper Fang that it had. But I don't think they need to translate the in-game effects to the anime so specific, I mean Supersonic is not really causing Pokémon to get confused....
 
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dman_dustin

Well-Known Member
Are people discussing the game's effect of the moves to especifically? Pff, the writers can make Super Fang very strong or extremely weak.

Come on now, there is a limit to how many times you can argue anime =/= games, after all Pikachu isn't going to evolve into Zapdos, at least canon-wise.

Super fang is very conditional, it would be like saying Bide can be used like hyper beam but the Pokemon doesn't need to take damage.

If the writers/producers/animators confuse its effects with hyper fang then fine, maybe.

P.S: What is all the talk about Goomy's movepool? The anime and the games aren't the same, if that's the case when did Greninja as Frogadier learned Smack Down or Bounce; or Talonflame as Fletchinder learned Natural Gift? Sheeeesh.

I don't get what your saying here, I'm just saying its odd for a Goomy to only have Bide and Rain dance if it wasn't newly hatched.

Didn't Dawn's Pachirisu have Super Fang? It's been a while since I last saw those episode, so it might've been Hyper Fang that it had. But I don't think they need to translate the in-game effects to the anime so specific, I mean Supersonic is not really causing Pokémon to get confused....

It was super fang but it was never used to knock out any Pokemon, it was useful because super fang I think had the same effect contest wise, contest points reduced by half, and there are contest defensive ways to use super fang.

Look if they treated super fang like hyper fang I guess that would be fine, I just don't know why Noibat/Noivern needs to waste a move having super fang, I think "bite" would be more likely.

Give Ash in the potential next generation a Pokemon that can learn super fang the moment Ash catches it.

But super fang is wasted on Noibat/Noivern given all the moves it can learn. I mean maybe Noibat could've had it, but will there be any need for a giant Pokemon to have it?

I feel like there are just so much better moves.
 

tsunamimijumaru

Well-Known Member
Noivern:
BoomBurst
Air Slash
D-Claw/D-Meteor
Brick Break

Boomburst replaces Supersonic
1 flying type move
1 dragon type move
1 coverage move
 
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