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July 28th: XY&Z035 - Fierce Rival Battle! Ash Greninja VS Mega Sceptile

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Epicocity

Well-Known Member
True,. Also, don't forget that Ash and Greninja has perfected the synchro evolution/or whatever they call it, so I don't think Ash would be thinking that if Greninja faints, Ash would to.

I don't think that would be entirely true. We know from the second Wulfric battle that Ash still takes damage when Greninja is damaged while in that form. Therefore, one can assume that if Greninja faints, so too does Ash just like in their first match when the only reason Ash passed out there was Avalugg knocking Greninja out.
 

potat_lasaro

I'm kind of alive
Do you even know any of this episode's dialogue? There IS thought behind the way Shota beat Hawlucha and Talonflame. A lazy unmoving opponent like Slaking is basically a psychological counter to Hawlucha who's battle style involves taking the opponents hits head on and showing off. And Talonflame, who specializes in speed, became beatable due to the slight delay in its movements caused by Ice Beam. You're free to think this tactics are still bad but Shota did explain the thought process behind his battling, so it's not just attack after attack.

Pikachu is going to cause a turning point for Ash, as thus far the battle has progressed exactly as Shota planned.

Yes, I did understand Sawyer's point for Slaking and Clawitzer for Ash's two birds but why leave Clawitzer in for Pikachu? Sawyer just doesn't seem like the kind f trainer to use a type disadvantage unless he has coverage moves which Clawitzer had nothing that owuld be super effective against Pikachu. I knew he would battle Pikachu from all the trailers, but why not recall Clawitzer and save him for later on. He has been shown to be, arguably, Sawyer's 2nd strongest pokemon so why not save him instead of having Pikachu face him?


Honestly, I'm not even entirely sure that Tierno was ever meant to be taken seriously as a rival. He had all of one appearance (the summer camp) before Sawyer was introduced battling Clemont and the only thing he beat Ash in was a game of tag. Had it been more than a mock battle, Ash would have found a way to counter his dancing strategy and won with Froakie. After that, Tierno consistently lost. So...I don't think it was Tierno's fault. I think they're just trying to show Sawyer as this intelligent prodigy; the opposite of Ash, ironically.

But why out of everyone do they make Tierno such a prominent character for that arc? They made it obvious that his dance strategy was something that Ash had never seen before and that he wanted to overcome it. Plus, why not just introduce Sawyer here and make his progress shown as he is defeated quickly by Ash, but by the end of camp he's much more confident. They could then have him reappear like they did in the anime and have Ash still help coach him until the end of Laverre City.


Clawitzer vs. Hawlucha: Counterstrategy 101 and Medicstrategy 101
Mega Sceptile vs. Raichu: Strategy 101
Slaking vs. Hawlucha: Counterstrategy 101

Heck, the kid uses moves like Attract and King's Shield and your saying that we don't see him be strategic enough? The battle is just getting started so don't worry so much.

Yes, those have all been shown to showcase Sawyer at his best as a strategist and I now realize that what I had typed was out of context. The Hawlucha vs Slaking was stratigized by Sawyer to lure Ash into a trap and so was Talonflame vs Clawitzer, but as I wrote up above, I just couldn't believe that Sawyer would leave Clawitzer in to face a fresh Pikachu. If he had recalled it and sent him out after Aegislash had tired Pikachu out it would have been different. The first two battles were perfectly fine to showcase Sawyer, but the Clawitzer vs Pikachu just felt like Sawyer had a brain cramp and forgot to recall his water type, who had two super effective moves to use against a Noivern who was just waiting to be used.
 

Amine

Well-Known Member
Yes, those have all been shown to showcase Sawyer at his best as a strategist and I now realize that what I had typed was out of context. The Hawlucha vs Slaking was stratigized by Sawyer to lure Ash into a trap and so was Talonflame vs Clawitzer, but as I wrote up above, I just couldn't believe that Sawyer would leave Clawitzer in to face a fresh Pikachu. If he had recalled it and sent him out after Aegislash had tired Pikachu out it would have been different. The first two battles were perfectly fine to showcase Sawyer, but the Clawitzer vs Pikachu just felt like Sawyer had a brain cramp and forgot to recall his water type, who had two super effective moves to use against a Noivern who was just waiting to be used.

It's the same with ash not recalling talonflame against Clawitzer. They're both dumb that's it.
 

Epicocity

Well-Known Member
It's the same with ash not recalling talonflame against Clawitzer. They're both dumb that's it.

Recalling for a type disadvantage is actually usually predicted as not the smartest in the anime. The more you reveal your team, the easier it is for your team to be countered. Look at Ash vs. Paul. Ash constantly switched to get a better matchup, like switching out Staraptor to avoid and make use of Gastrodon's Ice Beam...but then Paul could accurately predict what was going to happen next and started sweeping. Ash left Talonflame in for the hope that Talonflame could outspeed Clawitzer...and he would have been able to if it weren't for the Ice Beam. Likewise, Clawitzer's movepool is extremely diverse, and had Ash not made use of the field and Electro Ball in such a way, Clawitzer would have likely done more damage. Pikachu and Ash were just faster at thinking on the fly.
 

potat_lasaro

I'm kind of alive
It's the same with ash not recalling talonflame against Clawitzer. They're both dumb that's it.

There's a difference though. Ash has been shown countless times to not worry about type matchups. This is the same trainer who used a fighting type at a fairy gym and didn't care about the matchup. Sawyer though is shown to be quite the studious trainer who would seem to worry about type matchups as once he found out that steel types were strong against fairies he wrote it down in his notebook to use later on.
 

Amine

Well-Known Member
Recalling for a type disadvantage is actually usually predicted as not the smartest in the anime. The more you reveal your team, the easier it is for your team to be countered. Look at Ash vs. Paul. Ash constantly switched to get a better matchup, like switching out Staraptor to avoid and make use of Gastrodon's Ice Beam...but then Paul could accurately predict what was going to happen next and started sweeping. Ash left Talonflame in for the hope that Talonflame could outspeed Clawitzer...and he would have been able to if it weren't for the Ice Beam. Likewise, Clawitzer's movepool is extremely diverse, and had Ash not made use of the field and Electro Ball in such a way, Clawitzer would have likely done more damage. Pikachu and Ash were just faster at thinking on the fly.

I'm just saying they did the same thing.

In Ash vs Paul, It's was a good thing Ash switched this is how he won actually. He switched from pikachu agains't Aggron to nullify the metal sound effect and to have better matchup agains't Infernape. He switched from staraptor to buizel to take advantage of the aqua-jet/ice beam. For drapion it was just too strong and had a good strategy using the toxic Spikes and Ash didn't really have a good pokemon that could counter it properly. Electivire defeated Gliscor who was already worn out from the poison and from his battle vs drapion, Pikachu was also worn out. heck he even lost to infernape who was poisoned and already took down two pokemons.

In the end it was only Drapion who Ash couldn't handle. Imagine if Ash didn't switch, he wouldn't have lost and by a big margin (like the battle at the lake).

Sorry but Paul vs Ash was handeled very well. You can't say the say the same for this first half of Sawyer vs Ash.

First of all, even if Slaking has very good stats, he wouldn't be able to withstand all the super effective stabed fightinf move of Hawlucha. Ash should have switched talonflame agains't clawitzer and sawyer should have switched clawitzer vs pikachu.
 

Epicocity

Well-Known Member
But why out of everyone do they make Tierno such a prominent character for that arc? They made it obvious that his dance strategy was something that Ash had never seen before and that he wanted to overcome it. Plus, why not just introduce Sawyer here and make his progress shown as he is defeated quickly by Ash, but by the end of camp he's much more confident. They could then have him reappear like they did in the anime and have Ash still help coach him until the end of Laverre City.

Shauna was just as prominent if not moreso for that arc. And let's not forget that Ash and Clemont wasted the SC trio easily, already having him overcome the dancing strategy. If anything, it was to set up Ash trying to use the strategy against Korrina above all else. I have no idea why they didn't introduce Sawyer earlier, but introducing two rivals in the same arc would have been a horrible idea when we already had one for Serena as well. Either way, I don't think Tierno was every meant to be anything more than a glorified punching bag.

potat_lasaro said:
There's a difference though. Ash has been shown countless times to not worry about type matchups. This is the same trainer who used a fighting type at a fairy gym and didn't care about the matchup. Sawyer though is shown to be quite the studious trainer who would seem to worry about type matchups as once he found out that steel types were strong against fairies he wrote it down in his notebook to use later on.

Sawyer may have noted it down, but there's nothing to say he always goes for type-effectiveness. That scene was probably meant to show more that he was into learning everything. Remember, he admires Ash above all else, and Ash hardly worries about the type advantage. He saw that with Hawlucha vs. Spritzee. We have no proof that Sawyer does anything other than teach his Pokemon moves to deal with their weaknesses, but nothing to suggest he'd switch out all the time. Plus, switching on type advantages can grind a battle to a halt sometimes. "I switch out my weakness for this stronger one!" "Well, I do the same!" "Damn it!"

Amine said:
'm just saying they did the same thing.

In Ash vs Paul, It's was a good thing Ash switched this is how he won actually. He switched from pikachu agains't Aggron to nullify the metal sound effect and to have better matchup agains't Infernape. He switched from staraptor to buizel to take advantage of the aqua-jet/ice beam. For drapion it was just too strong and had a good strategy using the toxic Spikes and Ash didn't really have a good pokemon that could counter it properly. Electivire defeated Gliscor who was already worn out from the poison and from his battle vs drapion, Pikachu was also worn out. heck he even lost to infernape who was poisoned and already took down two pokemons.

In the end it was only Drapion who Ash couldn't handle. Imagine if Ash didn't switch, he wouldn't have lost and by a big margin (like the battle at the lake).

Sorry but Paul vs Ash was handeled very well. You can't say the say the same for this first half of Sawyer vs Ash.

First of all, even if Slaking has very good stats, he wouldn't be able to withstand all the super effective stabed fightinf move of Hawlucha. Ash should have switched talonflame agains't clawitzer and sawyer should have switched clawitzer vs pikachu.

I'm not arguing which battle was better. The whole fact is, Paul was able to get the upper hand sending out Drapion because he knew which Pokemon Ash was using due to him switching up a storm. The guy literally sacrificed two members of his team just to make this happen. Most trainers don't do that in the anime.
 

jrizza88

Meteorite
If he's really going to send out Pikachu in order to inflict cheap damage, he doesn't fully trusts his godly frog for finishing off the job. Even though the entire Greninja arc was about trusting each other.

I really want to see this episode just so I can see a proper reason for Ash to just throw his mouse as a free kill for Sceptile.

i wouldn't say that. you might be forgetting that Sceptile is technically supposed to be more of a threat with the type advantage. Anyway, Pikachu might end up being used against Slurpuff for all we know.
 

Amine

Well-Known Member
Anyway Ash will win 1-0. I saw the second preview and if you stop it at the right moment we can see all 5 pokemons of Ash are greyed.
 

gliscor&yanmega

Well-Known Member
So Pikachu will beat Aegislash and get recalled, still would have preferred a draw(Hopefully it draws with Tyranitar then), I'm pretty sure there has yet to been a draw in XY(Aside from Froakie vs Hawlucha).

I guess after that will be Noivern vs Salamence and hopefully Noivern wins. Probably loses to Slurpuff, but Goodra comes in to take that win, then loses to Sceptile. Pikachu faces Sceptile and I guess it doesn't need to go Mega(I think it was still a Sceptile before Greninja was used). Then Greninja comes in and finishes it off, although Goodra and Pikachu might have done little to nothing. So most likely everyone gets a win(Pikachu two), while Hawlucha takes a fall(But probably gets a win against Weavile).
 

Amine

Well-Known Member
So Pikachu will beat Aegislash and get recalled, still would have preferred a draw(Hopefully it draws with Tyranitar then), I'm pretty sure there has yet to been a draw in XY(Aside from Froakie vs Hawlucha).

I guess after that will be Noivern vs Salamence and hopefully Noivern wins. Probably loses to Slurpuff, but Goodra comes in to take that win, then loses to Sceptile. Pikachu faces Sceptile and I guess it doesn't need to go Mega(I think it was still a Sceptile before Greninja was used). Then Greninja comes in and finishes it off, although Goodra and Pikachu might have done little to nothing. So most likely everyone gets a win(Pikachu two), while Hawlucha takes a fall(But probably gets a win against Weavile).
Yeah Hawlucha did a get a win vs Mega-Absol (even if the battle wasn't fully shown).
 

andrewscott48209

Well-Known Member
I don't think that would be entirely true. We know from the second Wulfric battle that Ash still takes damage when Greninja is damaged while in that form. Therefore, one can assume that if Greninja faints, so too does Ash just like in their first match when the only reason Ash passed out there was Avalugg knocking Greninja out.

But Ash didn't pass out in his first battle with Alain. Sure, he feel back after the loss, but he didn't lose consciousness.
 

Epicocity

Well-Known Member
But Ash didn't pass out in his first battle with Alain. Sure, he feel back after the loss, but he didn't lose consciousness.

If you actually watch closely enough, you'll see Charizard break the veil and Greninja revert before fainting him. So, it's still consistent.
 

gliscor&yanmega

Well-Known Member
Yeah Hawlucha did a get a win vs Mega-Absol (even if the battle wasn't fully shown).

Which is also a nice little feat for it. All of Ash's Pokemon will walk away from this league with at least one win, most likely two.
 

Epicocity

Well-Known Member
Funny. I didn't see Greninja revert until he was lying on the ground. I probably didn't pay too much attention to it.

Okay, fair in that you don't see him explicitly revert. However, usually, a Mega only reverts after their knocked out on the ground...usually. But Greninja was knocked out regular style on the ground. In either case, you do literally see Charizard tearing the veil open.
 

redBadger22

Well-Known Member
Wait a second. How did Hawlucha lose to slaking? How did that make any sense at all. Why did shota think he was a good pick against a fighting type
 

Mrs. Oreo

Banned
I like how in yesterday's preview, Pikachu was shown trying hard to get through Aegislash's pesky King's Shield. I understand his pain cuz I hate that move in the games myself hee hee. Salamence's clash with Noivern looked intense as well. :]
 

andrewscott48209

Well-Known Member
Wait a second. How did Hawlucha lose to slaking? How did that make any sense at all. Why did shota think he was a good pick against a fighting type

Because Slaking had counter the it could use at the right time. And it had slack of that allows Slaking to heal itself of is damage.
 
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