July 30th: PM2019 075 - Cresselia's Midsummer Night's Light

[AuraChannelerChris]

Can we just agree that it's extremely cheap for a character we wasted looking at working hard to win at something big/become someone they want to be just to ultimately fail/never become who they want to be suddenly show up out of nowhere and declare they succeeded at their dreams through a real lack of an explanation.

Especially in a series that has way too many episodes that they literally don't know what to do with properly.

 

[Sham]

Wow, you're trying to totally spin my words out of context in some weird attempt to vilify me...

I only have a problem with off-screen progress when it's done in a manner to shove in what SHOULD be on-screen progress (Ash's PWC rankings/matches being skipped after wasting episodes after episodes with fillers), or completely lacks narrative basis (Iris becoming Champion when she showed no intention in the League structure during her series). You're the one who's trying to remove that point of contention to push your own point across.


Sure we do, we have a rough idea about League structure, at least established ones, from DP.

Dephender said that it is: Gym Battles (8 minimum) > League Conference > Champions League > E4 > Champion.

A Grand Festival is comparable to the League Conference at average. Yes, the method of qualifying and winning is noticeably different, but Contests and Festivals aren't about showcasing strength, not like the League Structure anyhow. Not to mention that Leagues have more steps involved that demands a steeply increasing power curve. There's no way it's believable that Iris beat the likes of Shauntal, Caitlin, Alder etc. because there's no on-screen basis of her even having any intention of challenging them, much less the power.

Am I 'dismissing it'? Back in BW, Iris was clearly below in Ash in terms of both experience and power level. It was clearly evident that he was the better trainer even with a dumbed down psychology as well as weaker Pokemon. The only narrative basis that Iris has was her Dragon Mastery goal, and protegee to Drayden (hence me saying that the Opelucid Gym Leader position would have made far more sense).

I didn't spin your words. If anything I think I was pretty on point with quoting you. Feel free to show where I dd that. I suppose maybe your problems on off screen problems deals with more with context as you pointed out but that wasn't you were originally saying prior to that episode airing if that's the case then I'll leave it alone but I still find the ideas conflicting with each other.

Like I said even if Dephender said that clearly isn't how it's always established as proof of Alola and because they never said what were the rules and regulations of the Unova league I'm not going to argue down a point that's never been uttered in BW. Also can we please no pretend that Iris (or any other character) can't have dreams or ambitions outside of their goals? So what if Iris showed no interests in challenging the Elite Four (and that's even if I'm going down your rabbit hole) people are allowed to evolve and develop different interests. Yes they're characters but they're human characters. Are you interested in the same things exactly as you were several years ago? I would hope not. The point is Iris had a general enjoyment of battling and was pretty great at it so it lead her to becoming a champion whatever way she did it.

You're entire argument is derived from a translation on how the league works from an episode that wasn't even apart of said series.

Iris was not clearly below Ash in BW and there is nothing narrative wise to suggest this. She's only ever lost to Drayden (after taking down his ace), Ash (Dragonite went crazy) and Montgomery but he also defeated Ash and they were setting it up for Stephen to defeat him. How is that below Ash... unless you have some other examples.

 

[Blue Saturday]

No one is using that as justification. What @Panky.. is saying is, if the Anime can make Iris Champion (which in his own mind and in many others) doesn't make any sense then the Anime should certainly make Dawn Top Coordinator because it indeed does make sense in their own minds. That is what they are thinking.

Iris’s main goal (that she hasn’t achieved) is Dragon Master like Hikari’s is Top Coordinator and Satoshi is Pokémon Master. You can’t really compare side hustles like winning a league or a Champion since they’re more of things they did along the way.

 

[Sham]

Iris’s main goal (that she hasn’t achieved) is Dragon Master like Hikari’s is Top Coordinator and Satoshi is Pokémon Master. You can’t really compare side hustles like winning a league or a Champion since they’re more of things they did along the way.

This. And Iris explicitly said she isn’t a Dragon Master yet in the episode not even 10 minutes in.

 

[Deleted member 384931]

Can we just agree that it's extremely cheap for a character we wasted looking at working hard to win at something big/become someone they want to be just to ultimately fail/never become who they want to be suddenly show up out of nowhere and declare they succeeded at their dreams through a real lack of an explanation.

Especially in a series that has way too many episodes that they literally don't know what to do with properly.

I know right. It is a miracle to me how they combine PWC episode, Gou episodes,Koharu episodes, returning characters AND lots of fillers

 

[SerGoldenhandtheJust]

....I honestly dont care if some dudebros have a problem with Iris becoming a champion lol, lots of things in anime can be weird but having a problem with this? Ill pass, I for one am incredibly happy and satisfied Iris became a champion considering the strong trainer we knew her to be and evolved axew all the way to Haxorus. Perfect fanservice and doesnt take away for me because they didnt say she beat Alder although we already know how that works and its irrelevant. Sad for the people who cant find enjoyment in this because it wasnt built up more in a series which isnt about Iris but I immensely enjoyed that episode and its one of my Pokemon series fav No one gonna take away from that lol, a satisfying conclusion to a lackluster super class

Yeah but how do you challenge a champion, thats my question i know that beating the champion allows you to become one but how do you even challenge one to a formal combat

As we know from DP, you win a pokemon league and are allowed to enter champions league where u get the privilege to battle E4 and then the champion. And we also know in BW the same champion league concept exists.

 

[Sham]

....I honestly dont care if some dudebros have a problem with Iris becoming a champion lol, lots of things in anime can be weird but having a problem with this? Ill pass, I for one am incredibly happy and satisfied Iris became a champion considering the strong trainer we knew her to be and evolved axew all the way to Haxorus. Perfect fanservice and doesnt take away for me because they didnt say she beat Alder although we already know how that works and its irrelevant. Sad for the people who cant find enjoyment in this because it wasnt built up more in a series which isnt about Iris but I immensely enjoyed that episode and its one of my Pokemon series fav No one gonna take away from that lol, a satisfying conclusion to a lackluster super class

As we know from DP, you win a pokemon league and are allowed to enter champions league where u get the privilege to battle E4 and then the champion. And we also know in BW the same champion league concept exists.

Basically all of this. I think the real issue is that a previous character that was considered “unliked” by the fandom pulled an uno reverse card and got the best upgrade of any companion (in one episode might I add) and it made people irate. Guarantee that if this was any other character nobody would be writing think pieces on how it makes no sense. That being said this isn’t even the first time they’ve switched between champions of the same games. Steven replaced Wallace and now Iris has replaced Alder. It’s funny because users years ago called Iris becoming champion way before this episode even aired.

With that being said, I welcome Dawn being a TC because she deserves it not on the merit of whatever Iris did in her return episode but the fact she was so close to winning her first time around and had excellent development in DP.

 

[SerGoldenhandtheJust]

Basically all of this. I think the real issue is that a previous character that was considered “unliked” by the fandom pulled an uno reverse card and got the best upgrade of any companion (in one episode might I add) and it made people irate. Guarantee that if this was any other character nobody would be writing think pieces on how it makes no sense. That being said this isn’t even the first time they’ve switched between champions of the same games. Steven replaced Wallace and now Iris has replaced Alder. It’s funny because users years ago called Iris becoming champion way before this episode even aired.

With that being said, I welcome Dawn being a TC because she deserves it not on the merit of whatever Iris did in her return episode but the fact she was so close to winning her first time around and had excellent development in DP.

People immediately buy Steven being a champion now but not Iris? Even though we saw more of her? Idk seems weird to me, I can understand wishing we had more episodes of her showing her journey but well she aint a MC anymore and Chronicles is a thing of the past, Im immensely satisfied with what we got
Also watch people getting defensive to ur post lol. There was CERTAINLY a bias against Iris which also contributes, not to everyone but I dont like it when people pretend that isnt a case

 

[Blue Saturday]

I, myself, have zero issue with Hikari being revealed as Top Coordinator nor was I contesting it as a concept I was just saying that comparing main goals to main goals Iris became the Champion of the Isshu Region isn’t the same as Hikari’s becoming a Top Coordinator. It’s just like how the Battle Frontier, Alola League and Orange League were more of side achievements but not the main dish of Satoshi’s whole adventure and character (Pokémon Master).

That being said Hikari getting her title as TC would be fine by me even if it’s her character’s raison d’etre. It would certainly give her return more weight if she had some team changes and big news to offer since she won’t be getting new attire.

 

[Spider-Phoenix]

Iris became champion because her game counterpart became one and apparently the anime wants to stick closer to the games now. I agree it doesn't make sense considering all we've seen from Iris within BW, but as they proved, they can whatever they think fit

 

[Sham]

People immediately buy Steven being a champion now but not Iris? Even though we saw more of her? Idk seems weird to me, I can understand wishing we had more episodes of her showing her journey but well she aint a MC anymore and Chronicles is a thing of the past, Im immensely satisfied with what we got
Also watch people getting defensive to ur post lol. There was CERTAINLY a bias against Iris which also contributes, not to everyone but I dont like it when people pretend that isnt a case

Because people don’t dislike Steven. Literally everyone who I’ve seen criticize the creative decision to make her a champion are people who have openly admitted to disliking her so I’ll take their opinions with a grain of salt. And then the explanations for why it doesn’t make any sense don’t make sense themselves it all boils down to “well err we didn’t have any implication she could of became the champion during BW” and went hit in the face with some ideas/evidence they claim it isn’t enough or not good enough for them. You can’t win.

 

[BrazilianPokeBr]

This episode could be the FINAL ever apperance of Dawn in Pokemon Anime.

 

[Jangobadass]

This episode could be the FINAL ever apperance of Dawn in Pokemon Anime.

I don't know...I can see her coming back for Legends promotion using Quilava (which evolves into Typhlosion?)

 

[Ultra Beast Lover]

This episode could be the FINAL ever apperance of Dawn in Pokemon Anime.

At least until they need more hype fodder

 

[lolipiece]

This episode could be the FINAL ever apperance of Dawn in Pokemon Anime.

There is literally nothing suggesting that.

 

[Decidueye23]

People immediately buy Steven being a champion now but not Iris? Even though we saw more of her? Idk seems weird to me, I can understand wishing we had more episodes of her showing her journey but well she aint a MC anymore and Chronicles is a thing of the past, Im immensely satisfied with what we got
Also watch people getting defensive to ur post lol. There was CERTAINLY a bias against Iris which also contributes, not to everyone but I dont like it when people pretend that isnt a case

Because a companion is drastically different from someone who appeared as a COTD and has essentially been retconned. Because we did not spend some number of years with steven seeing how he struggled with pokemon. We didnt see his skills as a trainer. Are you telling me the last time we saw Iris she was close to being champion level? She didnt even have a full team!

Because people don’t dislike Steven. Literally everyone who I’ve seen criticize the creative decision to make her a champion are people who have openly admitted to disliking her so I’ll take their opinions with a grain of salt. And then the explanations for why it doesn’t make any sense don’t make sense themselves it all boils down to “well err we didn’t have any implication she could of became the champion during BW” and went hit in the face with some ideas/evidence they claim it isn’t enough or not good enough for them. You can’t win.

LOL. People dont have a problem with Iris becoming a champion. People have a problem with the way it was potrayed. I have nothing against Iris. Sure she isnt my favourate character but i dont dislike her or anything. That has got nothing to do with Iris. Imagine seeing Misty as a champion after seeing her as a Gym leader in SM. Its sucks narratively. Esepcially when the battle is a 2 v 2 in Superclass. No one has a problem with Progression. Imagine this scenario,
Iris appears as a gym leader, defeats Ash, and then in Master 8 Ash challenges her, by which point she has become the champion. Imagine how satisfying that would be. Giving a cheap one liner that she has become strongest trainer in unova, with little to no justification is a disservice to the character it self.

And coming to this whole Dawn and Iris situation, what we last saw of Dawn she was this close to being Top Co-ordinator. Iris was nowhere being champion. What OP tried to say was while making Iris champion was not the best decision narratively, since it has happened they hope that Dawn is shown as Top Cordinator as this would even make more narrative sense and shouldnt be a huge problem because the she was a runner up last time it wouldbt be tok Farfetchd to see her as a Top Coordinator

 

[SerGoldenhandtheJust]

Because a companion is drastically different from someone who appeared as a COTD and has essentially been retconned. Because we did not spend some number of years with steven seeing how he struggled with pokemon. We didnt see his skills as a trainer. Are you telling me the last time we saw Iris she was close to being champion level? She didnt even have a full team!

And the last time we saw Steven he was????? He literally had one Pokémon shown too and nowhere near shown strong enough to be a champion. Seeing Iris struggle and better herself makes it all the much better to see that when she returns after so many years to finally be a champion and have matured and progressed so much more. Iris isn't a MC anymore lol, loved seeing her as a champion

 

[Decidueye23]

And the last time we saw Steven he was????? He literally had one Pokémon shown too and nowhere near shown strong enough to be a champion. Seeing Iris struggle and better herself makes it all the much better to see that when she returns after so many years to finally be a champion and have matured and progressed so much more. Iris isn't a MC anymore lol, loved seeing her as a champion

Which is what i am trying to say. Steven appeared in one episode. And then appeared after a long time almost with no reference to his past episodes. And even in that one episode, there really isnt much that contradicts him being a champion. And he wasnt a Companion whom we saw for a 140 episodes or so. It was one episode. Whereas iris was nowehere near defeating alder. Even ash wasnt. So her suddenly becoming champion was rushed. I would have loved to see her as champion with some more exposition. Her being the champion is not as much of problem as how it was handled. Also there are zero feats that we saw that make iris be believable as champion. Also Game steven and anime steven weren that different. So easy to buy in. Game iris and Anime iris have very different arcs. Makes it harder to believe. Also the only reason iris was made champion was because she becomes one in the game. Which is fine. But the way it was showed was soooo bad lol

 

[Sham]

Which is what i am trying to say. Steven appeared in one episode. And then appeared after a long time almost with no reference to his past episodes. And even in that one episode, there really isnt much that contradicts him being a champion. And he wasnt a Companion whom we saw for a 140 episodes or so. It was one episode. Whereas iris was nowehere near defeating alder. Even ash wasnt. So her suddenly becoming champion was rushed. I would have loved to see her as champion with some more exposition. Her being the champion is not as much of problem as how it was handled. Also there are zero feats that we saw that make iris be believable as champion. Also Game steven and anime steven weren that different. So easy to buy in. Game iris and Anime iris have very different arcs. Makes it harder to believe. Also the only reason iris was made champion was because she becomes one in the game. Which is fine. But the way it was showed was soooo bad lol

I’m not even going to argue this down because at the end of the day, the episode aired and all the think pieces in the world isn’t going to change what the episode established. I do want to touch on your point of “anime Iris and game Iris have different arcs so it made no sense” um what arc did game Iris have? She helped you with Team Plasma in all games, challenges you potentially if you’re playing white and disappears or teaches your Pokémon Draco Meteor in Black and if you’re lucky while playing BW2 challenges you as the champion. Not much of an “arc” and we barely get an explanation on how she defeated Alder nor her rise to becoming champion in the main games nor the memory link really.

 

[Power Up]

Which is what i am trying to say. Steven appeared in one episode. And then appeared after a long time almost with no reference to his past episodes. And even in that one episode, there really isnt much that contradicts him being a champion. And he wasnt a Companion whom we saw for a 140 episodes or so. It was one episode. Whereas iris was nowehere near defeating alder. Even ash wasnt. So her suddenly becoming champion was rushed. I would have loved to see her as champion with some more exposition. Her being the champion is not as much of problem as how it was handled. Also there are zero feats that we saw that make iris be believable as champion. Also Game steven and anime steven weren that different. So easy to buy in. Game iris and Anime iris have very different arcs. Makes it harder to believe. Also the only reason iris was made champion was because she becomes one in the game. Which is fine. But the way it was showed was soooo bad lol

It's really unfortunate that Iris's return was handled in one episode and in such a rushed manner. Giving more depth to her stature as a Champion versus the incredibly handwavy execution in the show has to be one of the bigger lost opportunities the show has missed out on.