July 5th: SM81 - The Young Flame of Alola! The Birth of Royal Satoshi!!

[345ash-greninja]

That's one move, though. And honestly, when it comes to Dark-type moves, Bite and Crunch are the least...dark. Bite especially since it was originally a Normal-type move before Gen II came along.

Dark-types are meant to be dirty tricksters who cheat and use the power of darkness to defeat the opponent. Ash's two battles against Nanu are a perfect example of that, while Ash's Dark-types never really act like that.

Biting the opponent isn't really that much of a dirty trick. It's just using a Pokemon's natural weapons. No different than Torracat's claw-based moves, really.

Bite was a Dark type move in Gen 1 because Dark type didn't exist in Gen 1. So using that as an excuse is really dumb TBH. And Crunch never was a Normal type move.

Dark type Pokemon are supposed to use dirty tricks and stealth and do those to cheat their opponents, but that's not really the entirety of Dark typing. Some attack like Feint, Torment, Sucker Punch, Pursuit, etc. involve stealth and tricks, but what about attacks like Dark Pulse or Night Slash? That doesn't involve any stealth or dirty tricks. They are Dark type moves because they are infused with dark, a.k.a. black energy, that's it.

Similarly, Bite and Crunch are Dark type moves because of a different reason than stealth and cheating, because biting and chomping down on someone is supposed to be something really ferocious, so the ferocity/brutality of the moves are likely the main reason for Bite/Crunch to be Dark type moves.

 

[mehmeh1]

Bite was a Dark type move in Gen 1 because Dark type didn't exist in Gen 1. So using that as an excuse is really dumb TBH. And Crunch never was a Normal type move.

Dark type Pokemon are supposed to use dirty tricks and stealth and do those to cheat their opponents, but that's not really the entirety of Dark typing. Some attack like Feint, Torment, Sucker Punch, Pursuit, etc. involve stealth and tricks, but what about attacks like Dark Pulse or Night Slash? That doesn't involve any stealth or dirty tricks. They are Dark type moves because they are infused with dark, a.k.a. black energy, that's it.

Similarly, Bite and Crunch are Dark type moves because of a different reason that stealth and cheating, because biting and chomping down on someone is supposed to be something really ferocious, so the ferocity/brutality of the moves are likely the main reason for Bite/Crunch to be Dark type moves.

actually, night slash's japanese name (tsujigiri) came from the dishonourable practice of samurais stealthily killing bystanders to test their new swords

 

[345ash-greninja]

actually, night slash's japanese name (tsujigiri) came from the dishonourable practice of samurais stealthily killing bystanders to test their new swords

But game/anime Night Slash hardly involves any stealth, so that point is moot.

 

[p96822]

EH I had something to say about Torracat, but I make it later

 

[DatsRight]

But game/anime Night Slash hardly involves any stealth, so that point is moot.

At one point they toyed with Meowth using it...but then he said it was too scary for even him.

 

[345ash-greninja]

At one point they toyed with Meowth using it...but then he said it was too scary for even him.

And by what logic 'scary' is akin to 'stealth', which according to @lolipiece is pretty much a necessity for a Dark type move?

 

[Satomine Night]

Dark type Pokemon are supposed to use dirty tricks and stealth and do those to cheat their opponents, but that's not really the entirety of Dark typing. Some attack like Feint, Torment, Sucker Punch, Pursuit, etc. involve stealth and tricks, but what about attacks like Dark Pulse or Night Slash? That doesn't involve any stealth or dirty tricks. They are Dark type moves because they are infused with dark, a.k.a. black energy, that's it.

Similarly, Bite and Crunch are Dark type moves because of a different reason than stealth and cheating, because biting and chomping down on someone is supposed to be something really ferocious, so the ferocity/brutality of the moves are likely the main reason for Bite/Crunch to be Dark type moves.

The Japanese name for Night Slash literally translates to "Crossroad Killing," and refers to the samurai practice of testing new swords on innocent passerby, most often at night. The Pokédex entry for the move Dark Pulse states that "The user releases a horrible aura imbued with dark thoughts." So it's about more than the energy that appears when the move is used. It's about the basis behind the move. As @lolipiece said, Dark type Pokémon are meant to be tricksters who cheat and use stealth and the power of darkness to defeat opponents, and many Dark type moves reflect that.

 

[Blaze Master X]

Yep, Satomine Night and lolipiece are right. Writers are having problems with Ash's Pokemon learning any Dark-Type moves (other than Bite and Crunch).
Like Nanu said, Ash is not a "Dark" guy. Ash is supposed to be a friendly character, not dark character. Dark-Type is known as "Evil-Type" in Japan.

Scraggy and Greninja haven't learned any Dark-Type moves. Krookodile has learned Crunch, but it replaced this move with Aerial Ace.

 

[U.N. Owen]

And by what logic 'scary' is akin to 'stealth', which according @lolipiece is pretty much a necessity for a Dark type move?

Dark-type is called Evil-type in Japan. From the old Eastern perspective, evil is more like dishonorable tactics. In an honor-based society like the ancient Chinese, Japanese, or any nation with an edition of Code Duelo, you fought your enemy face-to-face. Both men are armed equally and it becomes a matter of skill. You don't kick your enemy while he's down or stab them from behind.

 

[345ash-greninja]

The Japanese name for Night Slash literally translates to "Crossroad Killing," and refers to the samurai practice of testing new swords on innocent passerby, most often at night. The Pokédex entry for the move Dark Pulse states that "The user releases a horrible aura imbued with dark thoughts." So it's about more than the energy that appears when the move is used. It's about the basis behind the move. As @lolipiece said, Dark type Pokémon are meant to be tricksters who cheat and use stealth and the power of darkness to defeat opponents, and many Dark type moves reflect that.

What the Japanese name is for Night Slash means is totally irrelevant, because games/anime Night Slash doesn't involve any stealth and dirty tricks or cheating the opponents. Game/anime Night Slash is simply like: slashing the opponent straight up with dark/crimson coloured energy, which is representative of the Dark type. And so Night Slash is a Dark type move. There's no stealth involved there.

Similar with Dark Pulse, it involves dark/crimson coloured energy. A dark/crimson coloured burst of energy/beam is released at the opponent, that's what games/anime Dark Pulse basically is.

So as we can see, that Dark Pulse and Night Slash are Dark type moves because simply that they involve dark/crimson coloured energy, which is representative of the Dark typing, not because of any stealth, dirty tricks or cheating the opponent. So saying all Dark type moves has to involve dirty tricks, stealth or cheating the opponent is quite wrong TBH.

Yes, dirty tricks, stealth or cheating the opponent are also an important aspect of Dark typing, that's undeniable. Many Dark type moves like Feint Attack, Torment, Sucker Punch, Knock Off, Pursuit, etc. involve stealth, dirty tricks and cheating. But those aspects aren't definitely the entirety of Dark typing either. There are also other aspects of Dark typing/Dark type moves: like involving dark/energy, involving something nasty, brutal or ferocious, etc.

So saying that Bite and Crunch aren't that much Dark type, because they don't involve any stealth, dirty tricks or cheating, like what @lolipiece was suggesting, doesn't make much sense. Stealth, dirty tricks and cheating are one important aspect of Dark typing but not the entirety of it. Bite and Crunch are Dark type moves likely moreso because biting and chomping down on someone bis supposed to be something nasty, brutal and ferocious.

Yep, Satomine Night and lolipiece are right. Writers are having problems with Ash's Pokemon learning any Dark-Type moves (other than Bite and Crunch).
Like Nanu said, Ash is not a "Dark" guy. Ash is supposed to be a friendly character, not dark character. Dark-Type is known as "Evil-Type" in Japan.

Scraggy and Greninja haven't learned any Dark-Type moves. Krookodile has learned Crunch, but it replaced this move with Aerial Ace.

Ash's Pokemon like Totodile, Krookodile and Lycanroc knew/know Bite and Crunch, which are Dark type moves. And that invalidates the entire point.

Just because Scraggy and Greninja didn't knew any Dark type moves, people tend to assume that Ash's Pokemon can't learn Dark type moves or so, because Dark type is known as the Evil type in Japan. But this notion is quite wrong, because if that was the case, Totodile, Krookodile and Lycanroc would have never had Bite/Crunch in the first place.

Krookodile's Crunch was later replaced, so what? It was replaced very late, in the League. Krookorok/Krookodile still had Crunch for a long amount of time, and used it for a long amount of time. If learning Dark type moves were really an issue, then Krookorok/Krookodile wouldn't have known Crunch for a long amount of time in the first place. Just because it was replaced later, doesn't change the fact that Krookorok/Krookodile had and used Crunch for a long amount of time.

Dark-type is called Evil-type in Japan. From the old Eastern perspective, evil is more like dishonorable tactics. In an honor-based society like the ancient Chinese, Japanese, or any nation with an edition of Code Duelo, you fought your enemy face-to-face. Both men are armed equally and it becomes a matter of skill. You don't kick your enemy while he's down or stab them from behind.

Read above what I said to Satomine Night. Night Slash in the games/anime doesn't involve any stealth or anything like that. It straight up slashes the opponent with dark/crimson energy, that's it. So what the name of Night Slash means in Japanese means, is totally irrelevant, since the attack itself in games/anime doesn't involve any stealth whatsoever.

 

[Zoruagible]

I get Darknium-Z....
But there's literally no reason Ash shouldn't be able to use Dark attacks. The games don't even put Dark types with the bad guys, Poison type seems the traditional villain type in the Pokemon universe. Nearly every team owns Zubat and even Jessie/James had Poison types as their mains back in the day. When you think about it, the only Dark types villain teams have owned are Sharpedo, Mightyena, and Houndoom!
It's just stupid having Ash own a Dark type but not able to use Dark attacks with it, that's like Pikachu not using a Electric attack! Just stupid....

 

[345ash-greninja]

I get Darknium-Z....
But there's literally no reason Ash shouldn't be able to use Dark attacks. The games don't even put Dark types with the bad guys, Poison type seems the traditional villain type in the Pokemon universe. Nearly every team owns Zubat and even Jessie/James had Poison types as their mains back in the day. When you think about it, the only Dark types villain teams have owned are Sharpedo, Mightyena, and Houndoom!
It's just stupid having Ash own a Dark type but not able to use Dark attacks with it, that's like Pikachu not using a Electric attack! Just stupid....

I agree that it looked a bit dumb that Scraggy and Greninja never got to use any Dark type moves despite the fact that they were Dark type Pokemon, and they got primarily treated as Fighting and Water type Pokemon without their Dark typing ever being referenced. But it's not like that Ash isn't allowed to use Dark type attacks because of the Dark type being known as Evil type in Japan, because Totodile, Krookodile and Lycanroc all know/knew Bite/Crunch, which are Dark type moves. And this logic that some people use in case of Krookodile that it's Crunch was later replaced by Aerial is quite dumb TBH, because it knew Crunch for a long amount of time, and used it for a long amout of time, that obviously matters after all. Crunch was only replaced very late, into the League, that's it. The fact remains that Ash's Krookorok/Krookodile had Crunch as one of its iconic moves, and used it for long amount of time. So in case of Ash's Krookodile, things were different, it did get to use a Dark type move as a Dark type, so it's Dark type actually did get referenced.

 

[Blaze Master X]

Ash's Pokemon like Totodile, Krookodile and Lycanroc knew/know Bite and Crunch, which are Dark type moves. And that invalidates the entire point.

Just because Scraggy and Greninja didn't knew any Dark type moves, people tend to assume that Ash's Pokemon can't learn Dark type moves or so, because Dark type is known as the Evil type in Japan. But this notion is quite wrong, because if that was the case, Totodile, Krookodile and Lycanroc would have never had Bite/Crunch in the first place.

I've never said Bite and Crunch were not Dark-Type moves. Writers are fine with Bite and Crunch, but they are not fine with other Dark-Type moves.
Any animals can bite, so that's why they are fine with Bite and Crunch.

If they have no problem with Darkest Lariat, then that's good.

 

[345ash-greninja]

I've never said Bite and Crunch were not Dark-Type moves. Writers are fine with Bite and Crunch, but they are not fine with other Dark-Type moves.
Any animals can bite, so that's why they are fine with Bite and Crunch.

If they have no problem with Darkest Lariat, then that's good.

Well both Darkest Lariat and Z-move Malicious Moonsault look more like Fire type moves than Dark type moves, so the writers might not have a problem there I think.

 

[Master Pikachu 11]

Well both Darkest Lariat and Z-move Malicious Moonsault look more like Fire type moves than Dark type moves, so the writers might not have a problem there I think.

I agree, they both look like fire type moves which is why they shouldn’t have problem having Ash’s potential Incineroar performing them. I mean the Z move is pretty much a fire body slam and they had no problem with other Pokémon like Snorlax showing off body slam so just because it’s fire body slam shouldn’t be a reason for Ash not to show it off. I just want to see Torracat use a crystal that is close to its type instead of him having to rely on using Breakneck Blitz.

 

[Joltik-Kid]

Ash never really owning a Pokemon with a Dark move more menacing then Bite/Crunch really slipped my mind. Good pick up on that. And I find it kinda sad that people are going to length's claiming Darkest Lariat should be treated as a Fire move. I mean the anime has creatively liberties, but it's never outright changed the typing of an attack despite appearance... if that were the case, why didn't people just say Greninja's Cut was essentially a Water move? Or even a Dark move for that matter... was it because it's Cut and we're all used to it being the first of the mostly useless HM moves

 

[345ash-greninja]

Ash never really owning a Pokemon with a Dark move more menacing then Bite/Crunch really slipped my mind. Good pick up on that. And I find it kinda sad that people are going to length's claiming Darkest Lariat should be treated as a Fire move. I mean the anime has creatively liberties, but it's never outright changed the typing of an attack despite appearance... if that were the case, why didn't people just say Greninja's Cut was essentially a Water move? Or even a Dark move for that matter... was it because it's Cut and we're all used to it being the first of the mostly useless HM moves

Um, it's Ash-Greninja's Cut which looked like or essentially a Water type move. Greninja's (Base form) Cut was always treated as a Normal type move. When Greninja transformed into Ash-Greninja, then its Cut basically got a Water type move like portrayal, yep.

 

[Satomine Night]

What the Japanese name is for Night Slash means is totally irrelevant, because games/anime Night Slash doesn't involve any stealth and dirty tricks or cheating the opponents. Game/anime Night Slash is simply like: slashing the opponent straight up with dark/crimson coloured energy, which is representative of the Dark type. And so Night Slash is a Dark type move. There's no stealth involved there.

Similar with Dark Pulse, it involves dark/crimson coloured energy. A dark/crimson coloured burst of energy/beam is released at the opponent, that's what games/anime Dark Pulse basically is.

So as we can see, that Dark Pulse and Night Slash are Dark type moves because simply that they involve dark/crimson coloured energy, which is representative of the Dark typing, not because of any stealth, dirty tricks or cheating the opponent. So saying all Dark type moves has to involve dirty tricks, stealth or cheating the opponent is quite wrong TBH.

Yes, dirty tricks, stealth or cheating the opponent are also an important aspect of Dark typing, that's undeniable. Many Dark type moves like Feint Attack, Torment, Sucker Punch, Knock Off, Pursuit, etc. involve stealth, dirty tricks and cheating. But those aspects aren't definitely the entirety of Dark typing either. There are also other aspects of Dark typing/Dark type moves: like involving dark/energy, involving something nasty, brutal or ferocious, etc.

Regardless of the language, the name of the move does matter, because it hints toward the basis for the move. The fact of the matter is that Night Slash is based off of a samurai technique that involved killing innocent people, most often at night. Pokémon is a Japanese product, and the Japanese audience is (most likely) going to be aware of what "Crossroad Killing" refers to.

So you're just going to ignore the Pokédex entry of Dark Pulse, which explicitly states that the power behind the move is the dark thoughts the user is thinking when using the move? In other words, you're going to just disregard GameFreak's basis for the move and come up with your own? The name of the move and the basis behind the move are just as important as how the move appears.

 

[dman_dustin]

Ash's Greninja not getting night slash seemed more like "We're shoving Greninja (generally speaking) down your throat, so we at least want to provide SOME variety in the moveset in Ash's own eventual Greninja"

Perhaps if Sanpei (more specifically) didn't have night slash and later Ippei, perhaps maybe Ash's could've had Night Slash, but it seemed like they wanted at least a little variety with Cut instead of night slash and Aeria Ace instead of some other move.
-------------

That being said there was no excuse for Scraggy not have one dark type move, nor if Torracat evolves should it not be able to use a dark type move especially Darkest Lariat, though knowing the writers and the past, would not be surprised if they won't, since they very often don't care about variety.

I do wonder if anything will come of this episode, or is it just battle development for Torracat.

 

[345ash-greninja]

Regardless of the language, the name of the move does matter, because it hints toward the basis for the move. The fact of the matter is that Night Slash is based off of a samurai technique that involved killing innocent people, most often at night. Pokémon is a Japanese product, and the Japanese audience is (most likely) going to be aware of what "Crossroad Killing" refers to.

No the name does not matter anyway because the depiction of the move itself is clearly different. The name suggests that the move involves stealth, but the depiction of the move clearly does not. And that's what matters, because it's depiction of the move which is crucial to determining that how the move works and what its effects are.

And going by the depiction of the move it's more than clearly evident that it involves no stealth at all whatsoever, the Pokemon straight up slashing the opponent dark/crimson coloured blades, without executing any stealth or tricks. So the Japanese name of the move, which indicates towards Samurais stealthily killing their enemies with swords, clearly contradicts the moves' actual depiction, with clearly doesn't involve any stealth/tricks whatsoever and straighr up slashes the opponent with dark/crimson energy blades.

Also FYI, here's the Pokedex entry for Night Slash:

The user instantly slashes the target the instant an opportunity arises. Critical hits land more easily.

Did you find anything much related to stealth, dirty tricks or cheating involved in the Pokedex entry of Night Slash?

Let's alone in the games/anime depiction of Night Slash, where the user straight up slashes the opponent without involving any stealth, cheating or dirty tricks?

So you're just going to ignore the Pokédex entry of Dark Pulse, which explicitly states that the power behind the move is the dark thoughts the user is thinking when using the move? In other words, you're going to just disregard GameFreak's basis for the move and come up with your own? The name of the move and the basis behind the move are just as important as how the move appears.

Pokedex entries are obviously very important all the time because they literally describe how the move works and what effects if has. But the name of the move isn't always appropriate in judging/assessing how the move actually works or what effects the move has. Not necessarily all the time. Night Shade would be good example of such a move.

I didn't ignore the Pokedex entry of Dark Pulse, what are you talking about? Dark Pulse's Pokedex entry never once says of suggests that it involves any stealth, dirty tricks or cheating at all. 'Aura imbued by dark thoughts doesn't necessarily/isn't just supposed to mean stealth, dirty tricks or cheating. It could simply mean the the aura is something very dark/evil in nature which can have negative/bad effects on the mind.....which Dark Pulse sometimes has BTW, it causes the opponent to flinch occasionally, a.k.a., making it too scared to attack. That's a negative/bad effect on the mind, and not something like stealth or cheating.