June 23rd: SM127 - Gladio and Lilie! Chasing a Father's Phantom!!

[Kintaro]

Once again it looks like most of this ep will be about Gladion. What's the writers way of having Gladion steal spotlight in Lillie episodes?

 

[Leonhart]

However, I don't like how the battlefield looks, it's too plain and uninteresting, especially after the kalos league having some great environments, hopefully it changes for the later rounds

I do hope that the battlefield will change since the current one looks really simplistic in this episode, although given that the first round is the Battle Royal, I suppose that it makes sense that the battlefield would be so ordinary and unspectacular.

 

[TheWanderingMist]

Once again it looks like most of this ep will be about Gladion. What's the writers way of having Gladion steal spotlight in Lillie episodes?

You'd think they'd know better given how popular her game counterpart is.

 

[Kintaro]

You'd think they'd know better given how popular her game counterpart is.

It's kinda baffling really. Lillie could have been given co-star status similar to Dawn or some major role, they had all the material and promotion from the games to use. It's mind boggling.

 

[Doppelgänger]

I doubt that.

Dawn worked because she was similar to Ash in personality and was equally highly motivated, with some overlapping goals. Mutual shared interests gave her good on-screen chemistry with Ash, while the differences gave her a unique story arc to follow. But those differences still converged around competition, growth based goals.

Anime Lillie isn't similar to Ash, nor is she highly motivated. She is bookish, timid, and not competitive. Her initial goal was accomplished early on.

Game Lillie has a great story arc, but she's a poor fit for a "sports" show like what the Pokemon is.

 

[Kintaro]

I doubt that.

Dawn worked because she was similar to Ash in personality and was equally highly motivated, with some overlapping goals. Mutual shared interests gave her good on-screen chemistry with Ash, while the differences gave her a unique story arc to follow. But those differences still converged around competition, growth based goals.

Anime Lillie isn't similar to Ash, nor is she highly motivated. She is bookish, timid, and not competitive. Her initial goal was accomplished early on.

Game Lillie has a great story arc, but she's a poor fit for a "sports" show like what the Pokemon is.

That doesn't mean she couldn't have had a long inspired arc about her, closer to her game story, and then given her tons of focus after it ended. For the most part, Lillie isn't treated as any more important than the other 4 SM characters. She only got a bit more focus in the first year when the writers were attempting to adapt her game story. Theoretically she could have gotten tons of screentime, but the writers opted not to.

Not being into battling or being timid has nothing to do with it either, if they wanted to give a character a lot of screentime they would. After all, they increased Serena's screentime after the first year of XY when she was doing very little, or you can look in past sagas like what they did with May

 

[Leonhart]

Anime Lillie isn't similar to Ash, nor is she highly motivated. She is bookish, timid, and not competitive. Her initial goal was accomplished early on.

And there's nothing wrong with her character traits from my perspective. The fact that she showed initiative when she discovered Magearna and has been trying to fix it is also part of her character growth, and it shows just how far she's come from when she used to fear Pokemon. In any case, certain previous attempts to demean her character come off as a bit pointless since she'll be gone from the cast soon enough anyway, so I don't understand what the point of criticizing her so much is at this point.

 

[Doppelgänger]

That doesn't mean she couldn't have had a long inspired arc about her, closer to her game story, and then given her tons of focus after it ended.

You're imagining a hypothetical scenario that, by your design, is better than what the anime portrayed. I offered reasons why the hypothetical can't work for the reasons you gave.

Game Lillie's story isn't compatible with a typical vagabond Ash. Imagine Lillie being the companion in XY instead of Serena. Everything about her would have to be rewritten to fit that story structure.

SM opted to rewrite the story structure instead of perturbing the characters too far from their game counterparts. And it shows where Ash isn't particularly close to Lillie. She was a distant second behind Kiawe but I think Lana and Sophocles have since surpassed her.

For the most part, Lillie isn't treated as any more important than the other 4 SM characters. She only got a bit more focus in the first year when the writers were attempting to adapt her game story. Theoretically she could have gotten tons of screentime, but the writers opted not to.

Instead, the writers elevated the other four characters well beyond what they had in the games. Lillie doesn't have enough from the games to fill the shoes of Dawn. That's why Hau exists, and better writing for the trial captains is why Hau isn't necessary for the anime.

Not being into battling or being timid has nothing to do with it either, if they wanted to give a character a lot of screentime they would. After all, they increased Serena's screentime after the first year of XY when she was doing very little, or you can look in past sagas like what they did with May

I mean, it does.

Being afraid of Pokemon rules out Pokemon battling. Then she has to evolve from rookie battler to somewhat decent. And to focus on Pokemon battling is changing her very identity in the games, because she initially disliked Pokemon battles.

Game Lillie, who doesn't like battles and is intellectual, is a poor fit for a series focused around battles, starring a protagonist from Generation I who is obsessed with battles/training and makes decisions with intuition.

Serena's screentime increased with Showcases, which was a familiar formula to the Pokemon anime. You could invent some competition for Lillie to take an interest in, but her core personality is to not care for it. A more game-faithful storyline would be her babying Nebby in a similar vein to Bonnie/Squishy or Misty/Togepi. Which...she basically already does with Snowy.

Incidentally, while all the girls have had baby Pokemon at some point, Ash has had three over the course of SM - Nebby, Poipole, and now Meltan.

 

[Kintaro]

Well it's all hypothetical scenarios when all is said and done. Even in the context SM is written as a slice of life series and the same format, Lillie could have been a much more important character in her own saga. And as said, the writers now have a habit of shoving Gladion into all of Lillie's spotlight episodes so he inevitably takes screentime away from her. Now that SM is nearly over, it really puts into perspective how Lillie didn't really get the star treatment she deserved.

 

[Deleted member 384931]

I think that the AG treatment would worked better in SM, not too serious but not too comedial either

 

[playerking]

I thinking the scene of Gladion and Umbreon watching their younger selves in Mohn's office might actually be Zoroark using it's illusion ability.

I know, I agree. I mentioned that on page 6.

Oh, wow. I just noticed. Eevee is with Gladion in the scene where his father rubbing his hair appears as an illusion, but Eevee wasn't there before. This is the third time that memory has been shown and now it has another thing added to it. I guess it just goes to show that details keep getting added to memories as soon as that memory becomes clearer and I guess when Gladion remembered his father patting his head in SM116, that still wasn't the complete memory. Or, his father did it more than once, but the mere fact that this same memory has been shown twice could mean that it only happened once.

 

[Twilight-Kun]

Once again it looks like most of this ep will be about Gladion. What's the writers way of having Gladion steal spotlight in Lillie episodes?

Because Lillie has no agency as a character and does nothing by herself, always having others guide her

The time she tried to do something on her own, she nearly died several times and Gladion had to save her from her own stupidity (SM051)

 

[lemoncatpower]

Because Lillie has no agency as a character and does nothing by herself, always having others guide her

The time she tried to do something on her own, she nearly died several times and Gladion had to save her from her own stupidity (SM051)

She’s basically a one step up from the max or Bonnie of the season. Didn’t have any Pokémon for a while due to whatever reason, and then finally got one but still needs help in every scenario by the big kids or her big bro.

 

[Twilight-Kun]

She’s basically a one step up from the max or Bonnie of the season. Didn’t have any Pokémon for a while due to whatever reason, and then finally got one but still needs help in every scenario by the big kids or her big bro.

Step down from Bonnie, who was the original Blonde Girl with a God in her Bag, and who actually participated in the climactic showdown instead of letting Ash do all the work

Twice

 

[Deleted member 384931]

Step down from Bonnie, who was the original Blonde Girl with a God in her Bag, and who actually participated in the climactic showdown instead of letting Ash do all the work

Twice

Lol the irony

 

[lemoncatpower]

Step down from Bonnie, who was the original Blonde Girl with a God in her Bag, and who actually participated in the climactic showdown instead of letting Ash do all the work

Twice

Lmao she’s like max and Bonnie mixed basically. Super smart about Pokémon but useless and then was supposed to hold the legendary in her bag but got pushed aside. So ya def Bonnie>Lillie>Max

 

[Kintaro]

Bonnie got tons of screentime. At some points she felt like the main heroine of XY.

 

[DatsRight]

Step down from Bonnie, who was the original Blonde Girl with a God in her Bag, and who actually participated in the climactic showdown instead of letting Ash do all the work

Twice

Calling a Pokemon to do one attack when they were clearly going to do that attack anyway isn't really participation.

Lillie I think is a step up because she can at least manage agency more often in spite of dwindling limelight, she's a bit like Kiawe who doesn't get a lot of centre stage but does okay as a supporting character. Also she's not in an extremely formulaic series where the height of nearly every episode is curb stomping a really lame bad guy.

 

[TheWanderingMist]

Calling a Pokemon to do one attack when they were clearly going to do that attack anyway isn't really participation.

Lillie I think is a step up because she can at least manage agency more often in spite of dwindling limelight, she's a bit like Kiawe who doesn't get a lot of centre stage but does okay as a supporting character. Also she's not in an extremely formulaic series where the height of nearly every episode is curb stomping a really lame bad guy.

Bonnie wasn't legally allowed to have Pokémon, which isn't really her fault. And though Zygarde was clearly going to do that anyway, she's technically the only person to kill someone.

 

[Sham]

Because Lillie has no agency as a character and does nothing by herself, always having others guide her

The time she tried to do something on her own, she nearly died several times and Gladion had to save her from her own stupidity (SM051)

And in the same episode she saved Gladion’s butt by reminding him to use the fairy disk and aiding Silvally with Snowy’s ice moves. Or did we just forget those scenes? Also I still stand by Lillie getting WAY more development than the trial captains and that’s excluding the Aether Foundation arc. Mallow and Sophocles JUST started doing something (although Sophocles admittedly have a rival and have competed in competitions), Lana somehow got a fully evolved Pokémon despite being in one battle. Kiawe is the only comparable one imo.