June Plot Discussion

[G-SANtos]

What I'm confused about, though, is why Musha returned to Black. The reason why Musha left was because Black didn't have his mind set on one goal like before. Was the reason why Musha returned because Black had one goal once again: to rescue Cheren?

Or maybe N was wrong about the reason for Musha left.

I think everyone noticed the resemblance between the Dark Trinity (Shadow Triad) and the Gym triplets. Could one of the trios clones of the others? This could open possibilities for Kyōhei and Mei to appear in the manga as Black and White's clones. Hoodman said he saw how different trainers bring out the strength in their Pokémon (and what is the cold heart theory? Is it something I missed from months ago?), so what if he also uses human cloning to test some theory about this?

 

[Dreamingflower]

Or maybe N was wrong about the reason for Musha left.

I think everyone noticed the resemblance between the Dark Trinity (Shadow Triad) and the Gym triplets. Could one of the trios clones of the others? This could open possibilities for Kyōhei and Mei to appear in the manga as Black and White's clones. Hoodman said he saw how different trainers bring out the strength in their Pokémon (and what is the cold heart theory? Is it something I missed from months ago?), so what if he also uses human cloning to test some theory about this?

They don't even have Black and White's DNA. I don't think Kusaka would go that far in his manga.

 

[G-SANtos]

They don't even have Black and White's DNA. I don't think Kusaka would go that far in his manga.

They could get a sample during the final battle. Hoodman could, like, cut White's hair, and if Black bleeds in the battle against N, then you get a sample on the floor. Plus, cloning would justify "Black 2" and "White 2" as names, even if they are only used in the cloning pods, or ssomething, and they get their in-game names after being freed by... Cheren, or someone else.

Plus, if Saque/Sird is someow involved in the plot, you could even tie X and Y in this cloning thing, because one of the possibilities I thought for the X/Y arc is that the portagonists in some sort of genetic experiment. If Saque has ties with Isshu and te sixth region, she could have stolen the technology of "Project XY" and given it to Hoodman for some reason, like "she was hired to steal it", allowing the cloning project to be possible. This would obviously mean that the "Project XY" would have been started at least three years before the XY arc, assuming we have just an one-year timeskip from BW2 to XY.
Just one possibility I thought, and I think that's how I would do it if I were writing the manga and trying to keep the naming tradition untouched, so "X" and "Y" would be the characters's codenames for the project. It should be noted that the involvement of Saque wouldn't necessarily mean she is still around until the XY arc, she could still be finishe off in BW2, and have the hypothetical sixth region connection as "a job she did in the past".

Kyurem...well, it's going to be obvious when Kyurem will debut, so nothing to worry about there.

There's also the possibility of an Early Bird Cameo. We know Kyurem was pictured in a merchandise for the manga (what was it again), so it could be either just a cool picture, or foreshadowing of an early debut. Remember that we already have a BW2 Gym Leader here.

 

[e9310103838]

So they clone 14-year-old youths completed within two years?

This seems to be a little too fast. ;150;

 

[lolipiece]

This is Pokemon, where a Mewtwo can be cloned simply from the DNA of a Mew and some cells from a human.

Long story short, it runs on cartoon cloning.

Also, no cloning, please. That's just ridiculous.

 

[diakyu]

Guys, cloning a human is a bit much. Especially for something as simple as introducing two new protagonists or just giving Black and White new pairs of clothes.

 

[chamo-chan]

That whole cloning theory is very unlikely. There really is no reason to clone anybody. :/

I agree with what Loli said earlier, about the legendary pokemon.
With the Kami Trio, there's a chance that either the Shadow Triad keeps them until two years later during the B2W2 chapter as a way to debut their Therian Forms, but I don't know.
Victini could use another appearance, and I'm not sure about Genesect either.
Even though Kyurem will definitely have an appearance in B2W2, it may be mentioned or shown briefly in the BW chapters.

 

[Platinum fan.]

When BW2 was first announced we all joked about them being clones...I don't think any of us were serious. I hope none of you were serious but like Lolipiece said look how Mewtwo was done. I don't think we'll get into clone stuff. Then we'll have a major identity crisis on who the real Black and White are leading to a emo break down.

 

[Macromind101]

Okay this cloning theory is just ridiculous. Seriously? Human clones? Okay first disregarding that this cloning idea is absolutely ridiculous, we must also remember that there are three Unova Pokedex, one for the male, one for the female, and one for the rival. It's always been that way since Generation I (disregarding Yellow but then again she kept the only surviving old one while everyone else got new ones). I doubt anyone is gonna make a new Pokedex. And also, the starter situation was already complicated as it was. The having two sets of Unova starters, one fully evolved and one not evolved at all was a brilliant (and probably the only) solution. Giving out more starters for a "solution" where there is already a much better solution is just not worth it, it is way too messy, and it's already been confirmed that there are only two sets of Unova starters anyway. I can't wait for Kusaka to finally just slap on Nate and Rosa's clothes onto Black and White so that this ridiculous theory can come to an end.

 

[e9310103838]

Okay this cloning theory is just ridiculous. Seriously? Human clones? Okay first disregarding that this cloning idea is absolutely ridiculous, we must also remember that there are three Unova Pokedex, one for the male, one for the female, and one for the rival. It's always been that way since Generation I (disregarding Yellow but then again she kept the only surviving old one while everyone else got new ones). I doubt anyone is gonna make a new Pokedex. And also, the starter situation was already complicated as it was. The having two sets of Unova starters, one fully evolved and one not evolved at all was a brilliant (and probably the only) solution. Giving out more starters for a "solution" where there is already a much better solution is just not worth it, it is way too messy, and it's already been confirmed that there are only two sets of Unova starters anyway. I can't wait for Kusaka to finally just slap on Nate and Rosa's clothes onto Black and White so that this ridiculous theory can come to an end.

However, where's Cheren's Poke Dex?

And I do not think Bianca's Oshawott would give anyone, then we have only N's Tepig, Cedric Juniper's Samurott, or maybe Cheren's Snivy are possible to give other people.

Maybe we will get the descendants of the former two groups starter Pokemon. ;216;

 

[G-SANtos]

Also, no cloning, please. That's just ridiculous.

More than superpowers[Furigana: Yellow]? We've already had humans with supernatural powers, so why would a scientifical thing be more ridiculous than an unscientifical thing, specially in a world where they have spherical machines that can shrink monsters?

That whole cloning theory is very unlikely. There really is no reason to clone anybody. :/

It's just that, the Shadow Traid and the San'yō brothers are so similar to each other. They have the same expressions, the same mannerisms, and have Pokémon of the same types. This should be either cloning, alternate universe versions, or a Contrived Coincidence, and since Pokémon doesn't use the multiverse in that way, I go with cloning, as simply saying it's a Contrived Coincidence feels like waste of plot potential, at least to me. And having one of those trios being clones, opens way for Kyōhei and Mei to also be, should Kusaka decide to somehow use "Black 2" and "White 2" as names.

Then we'll have a major identity crisis on who the real Black and White are leading to a emo break down.

Not necessarily. If no one ever raises them to think they are Black and White, then they would have their own identities. I'll post my take on the cloning theory later in BW2 manga thread, so that you can see how I think it could be done.

[W]e must also remember that there are three Unova Pokedex, one for the male, one for the female, and one for the rival.
[...]
I doubt anyone is gonna make a new Pokedex.

And yet, in the BW2 games, there is a fourth Pokédex for the player. Does Hue also receive a Pokédex there? I never checked this.
Either way, the fact that in the games they made another Pokédex opens path for a new set of Dexes in the manga.

And also, the starter situation was already complicated as it was. The having two sets of Unova starters, one fully evolved and one not evolved at all was a brilliant (and probably the only) solution. Giving out more starters for a "solution" where there is already a much better solution is just not worth it, it is way too messy, and it's already been confirmed that there are only two sets of Unova starters anyway.

However, in the games Hue raised his starter from an egg, so...

Maybe we will get the descendants of the former two groups starter Pokemon. ;216;

Which is exactly my theory, and I think it's the third or fourth time I say it. Araragi father's Samurott is already fully evolved, so I don't think it could be given to Hue, and while we had Sceptile and Emerald, you must remember that it only happened because it evoled while he was with Mitsuru, who was originally planned to be the owner of the third Hoenn Dex, and then evolved again before meeting Emerald.

The fact that Hue raised his starter from an egg in the games, opens the possibility of the same thing happening in the manga. And since we already know Buoh and Bubu-chan have opposite genders, my assumption is that the same happens with the other duos. Done, you have the perfect set up for making a third set of Starters.

However, where's Cheren's Poke Dex?

And also this. We don't know where is Cheren's Dex. Since he accepted Plasma's ideology, he probably got rid of it. He could have destroyed it for all we know, that way, it couldn't be given to Hue or anyone else, not even N who I thought as a possible owner, to some people's dismay in past threads.

I can't wait for Kusaka to finally just slap on Nate and Rosa's clothes onto Black and White so that this ridiculous theory can come to an end.

What makes you think this is what is going to happen? Tōya and Tōko and Kyōhei and Mei are explicitly separate characters in the games. There's no reason to merge them in the manga.

 

[Dreamingflower]

What makes you think this is what is going to happen? Tōya and Tōko and Kyōhei and Mei are explicitly separate characters in the games. There's no reason to merge them in the manga.

The only problem here is that the games=/= manga. Krys and Lyra were also 2 different characters and Crys still appeared in the HGSS clothes. If Kusaka want's to put Black and White in Mei and Kyōhei's clothes he can do that.

 

[Coronis]

Haven't really posted my personal thoughts on how the BW2 protagonists will be handled. Previously, I felt an attire change for Black and White might not have worked the best way. In the Krys/Lyra situation, Lyra basically replaced Krys and the two never really coexisted in any games. But for the BW and BW2 protagonists, they were distinctively different as evidenced by them coexisting (though not physically) in BW2. That said, I was keeping an open mind on how the writers would handle this.

However, as time goes on, it seems like an attire change is the easier way out. The BW2 arc has not progressed beyond the prologue, and XY are on the horizon (if BW's release was any hint, the writers would feel pressured to start the XY arc alongside with the games' release). I don't really think the writers have the luxury to build two (or three if counting Hugh) new characters from scratch. Platinum and HGSS were cut short in the magazine version and completed in volumes, but there were essentially no new protagonists to introduce, so the writers only had to cater to the plot. If they decide to create a Black2 or White2, I doubt there will be much time for characterization. With each new protagonist, I guess it's fair to say you need at least 10 chapters or so just to build the character before something solid happens with the plot. There is already doubt on how much they can develop Hugh if he plays a major role in BW2. If you add two more, I can't imagine a fulfilling arc. I'd really hate to see two completely forgettable protagonists joining the Pokedex Holder group.

The cloning theory, regardless of its feasibility, shares the same problem. If Black2 and White2 are really clones of our Black and White, character building would be problematic in view of time constraint, unless they have the exact same character as Black and White, or if they are just zombies (which would have been pointless and they should just stick to Black and White).

I'm still keeping on open mind on the issue, though I would worry if the writers opt for the brand-new character path, since I would not want BW2 to drag on for 2 years and we'd have another volume-release choke after BW.



Coronis~

 

[Macromind101]

What makes you think this is what is going to happen? Tōya and Tōko and Kyōhei and Mei are explicitly separate characters in the games. There's no reason to merge them in the manga.

Um, yes there is. For one thing, has there ever been a scene in the games where Hilbert/Hilda and Nate/Rosa were together? No there wasn't. As far as Nate/Rosa are concerned, Hilbert/Hilda are only legends. Even Cheren, Hilbert/Hilda's best friend, thought that it would be easier to find N over Hilbert/Hilda in the games (and N was supposedly in another region). Hilbert/Hilda may as well not exist. In the manga, it would be better for Hilbert/Hilda and Nate/Rosa to coexist as one character than to banish the first set into nonexistence. And plus, Nate/Rosa has to be main characters. But they already ran out of games to name them after after Hugh. (And no don't suggest Black2/White. Not only is it completely ridiculous and unhumanoid but when was the last time that a character was named after any form of remake/third version?)

EDIT: Wait I'm confused. Black represents Truth which is how he is able to control Reshiram, correct? If Cheren is also able to understand truth, then what makes Black different from how Cheren views the world?

And also, if N represents ideals, then shouldn't the current Team Plasma represent ideals as well? Or is there something major that I am missing...

 

[Zoruagible]

It's been awhile since I read the manga.
I love Looker's disguise though

 

[G-SANtos]

In the Krys/Lyra situation, Lyra basically replaced Krys and the two never really coexisted in any games. But for the BW and BW2 protagonists, they were distinctively different as evidenced by them coexisting (though not physically) in BW2.

Not to mention that the idea of Crys and Kotone being separate is questionable, and can be incorrect. What do we know about this other than the designer making Kotone from scratch?

However, as time goes on, it seems like an attire change is the easier way out. The BW2 arc has not progressed beyond the prologue, and XY are on the horizon (if BW's release was any hint, the writers would feel pressured to start the XY arc alongside with the games' release). I don't really think the writers have the luxury to build two (or three if counting Hugh) new characters from scratch. Platinum and HGSS were cut short in the magazine version and completed in volumes, but there were essentially no new protagonists to introduce, so the writers only had to cater to the plot. If they decide to create a Black2 or White2, I doubt there will be much time for characterization. With each new protagonist, I guess it's fair to say you need at least 10 chapters or so just to build the character before something solid happens with the plot. There is already doubt on how much they can develop Hugh if he plays a major role in BW2. If you add two more, I can't imagine a fulfilling arc. I'd really hate to see two completely forgettable protagonists joining the Pokedex Holder group.

But we have Pokémon the Comic coming soon, this means we will have three magazines serializing the manga. There's no reason they can't use one of them to serialize BW2, and even with the whole magazine launch process thing, I don't think it'll take more than until Octoboer to release it.

Um, yes there is. For one thing, has there ever been a scene in the games where Hilbert/Hilda and Nate/Rosa were together? No there wasn't. As far as Nate/Rosa are concerned, Hilbert/Hilda are only legends. Even Cheren, Hilbert/Hilda's best friend, thought that it would be easier to find N over Hilbert/Hilda in the games (and N was supposedly in another region). Hilbert/Hilda may as well not exist. In the manga, it would be better for Hilbert/Hilda and Nate/Rosa to coexist as one character than to banish the first set into nonexistence.

We also never had any scene where the Crystal male and female protagonists interacted. We still got both in the manga. The same happened with Silver in FRLG. There's really no reason for Kusaka to banish Black and White if he used Kyōhei and Mei. We saw BW2-only characters in the BW League, there's really no reason for Black to be missing by the start of BW2 and return with N for the final battle.

Also, this "Tōya/Tōko may not exist" is idiocy, We were explicitly shown they exist by playing as them, having them mentioned by Trainers in the routes, playing as them, having them being mentioned by N, and playing as them. Did I already mention we played as them. If you say they may not exist, you're claiming B/W never happened, which leaves with a plot black hole, or even that N and G-Cis in the first game were defeated by a collective hallucination.

And plus, Nate/Rosa has to be main characters. But they already ran out of games to name them after after Hugh. (And no don't suggest Black2/White. Not only is it completely ridiculous and unhumanoid but when was the last time that a character was named after any form of remake/third version?)

Platinum...

And before her we got Blue, Yellow, Crystal, and Emerald. Kusaka always uses the names of all the main games, FR/LG and HG/SS weren't used because they are remakes, which are basically "this is what the game would be like if we made it nowadays", so maybe Kusaka counts them as the same thing as the original ones. But B2W2 aren't remakes, they are sequels, which, for this Generation, means "the third version". I'm pretty sure he'll work out "Black 2" and "White 2" in some way or another even if it's just for a nickname, and if he doesn't, he'll just use the in-game names, like he's doing with Hue.

There are also other ways of working "Black 2" and "White 2" as names for them. Someone on the With The Will forums suggested translating them to Japanese as "Kuroni" and "Shironi". Another possibility I thought is giving them full names, with their surnames having the words "black" and "white", and names containing the number "two". There are many Japanese names containig numbers on them, such as Seiichi, Mitsu (which is literally just the number "three"), and Gorō, so Kusaka could easily have the boy being named "Jirō Kurosaki" and the girl "Futaba Shirakawa", or any other name using these kanji. This would, however, be hard to adapt in English and other languages since, at least as far as I know, there aren't names containing numbers in Western languages, but I don't care, and probably nor does Kusaka since he's not writing it for Western audiences.

More to the point, "running out of names" is not a valid reason to say Kusaka won't use those characters, as he can always play with these in never-before seen ways, such as the full name suggestion.

 

[lolipiece]

Actually, there is a problem with starting Black 2 and White 2 now.

Since it's a sequel, they can't mention the events of Black and White without spoiling what happens. Pokespe tends to avoid attempting to show plot points from previous chapters until they happen in said chapter. And they can't just ignore Team Plasma being defeated, can they? That would be stupid.

When RS and FRLG ran together, they avoided revealing that the Ruby and Sapphire was the Red and Blue Orbs because it would spoil that they were destroyed.

When FRLG and E ran together, they avoided revealing the statue plot even when Oak reveals that he wanted Jirachi to grant a wish, for obvious reasons.

 

[Coronis]

But we have Pokémon the Comic coming soon, this means we will have three magazines serializing the manga. There's no reason they can't use one of them to serialize BW2, and even with the whole magazine launch process thing, I don't think it'll take more than until Octoboer to release it.

There's still a lot of uncertain about the nature of Pokemon the Comic, and I think it's too early to be hopeful that it will rescue Special's serialization problem.

I'm personally not too convinced that it will be a serializing magazine but rather something like a one-off publication. Unlike magazines like Ichiban, this publication is clearly intended to release Pokemon-only manga, and honestly there aren't many on-going Pokemon serializations out there at the moment that could fill up a monthly magazine (not to mention that the currently running ones are contracted to their current magazines in some way). I don't foresee too many new Pokemon manga popping up before the start of XY either. It can't fill up its pages like Fan does with movies and games stuff because it's 'the Comic', and that would overlap with Fan.

Some may think that Pokemon the Comic will only carry Special, but that would be kind of pointless because the writers don't need another medium to pre-publish something identical to a later compilation. That said, if it's a Kusaka/Hidenori only publication, I think it may actually be a one-off release containing the special Red chapter, hopefully some BW2 material, and perhaps they will put the Rangers manga into publication.

If it's a collaboration between different manga artists, perhaps they will publish some stand-alone few-chapter-only releases from various previous magazines.



Coronis~

 

[e9310103838]

Wait I'm confused. Black represents Truth which is how he is able to control Reshiram, correct? If Cheren is also able to understand truth, then what makes Black different from how Cheren views the world?

The clearly Cheren does not understand truth.

Not to mention that the idea of Crys and Kotone being separate is questionable, and can be incorrect. What do we know about this other than the designer making Kotone from scratch?

This has proved to be different character through her designer (in a sense. Sure not include SP). Although the concept is based on Crys.

There are also other ways of working "Black 2" and "White 2" as names for them. Someone on the With The Will forums suggested translating them to Japanese as "Kuroni" and "Shironi". Another possibility I thought is giving them full names, with their surnames having the words "black" and "white", and names containing the number "two". There are many Japanese names containig numbers on them, such as Seiichi, Mitsu (which is literally just the number "three"), and Gorō, so Kusaka could easily have the boy being named "Jirō Kurosaki" and the girl "Futaba Shirakawa", or any other name using these kanji. This would, however, be hard to adapt in English and other languages since, at least as far as I know, there aren't names containing numbers in Western languages, but I don't care, and probably nor does Kusaka since he's not writing it for Western audiences.

This seems to be meaningless since we already have a similar example Cheren & Bianca. ;216;

 

[Monster Guy]

Actually, there is a problem with starting Black 2 and White 2 now.

Since it's a sequel, they can't mention the events of Black and White without spoiling what happens. Pokespe tends to avoid attempting to show plot points from previous chapters until they happen in said chapter. And they can't just ignore Team Plasma being defeated, can they? That would be stupid.

I think everyone familiar with Pokemon knows that Team Big Bad always gets defeated in the end. Is that really that much of a spoiler?