Haunter ゴースト
Well-Known Member
Not really, they make each new Gym Leader look intimidating despite us all knowing he WILL get all 8 badges each region. They can do the same with the league.
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Kalos League Discussion Thread
- Thread starter nameman
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Not really, they make each new Gym Leader look intimidating despite us all knowing he WILL get all 8 badges each region. They can do the same with the league.
Shadao
Aim to be a Pokémon Master
And it's an empty trophy and some meaningless title for someone like Alain. Alain, who brought disaster to Kalos by helping Team Flare. Alain who helped captured Z2 and a lot of other Team Flare dirty work. Alain who was duped and mislead by an evil leader, and Ash has to clean up the mess. I can think of numerous ways of Alain giving up the title Champion because quite frankly, he isn't a worthy champion after all of this.
Now he sees someone who strives to be the champion, was never duped by Team Flare, and was the only person who reminded of fun and made put up a good fight. Certainly redemption to him would require a rematch on his terms. Under Alain, Champion means disaster and pawn of Flare. Under Ash, Champion means savior and exemplary.
SlimeStack
Well-Known Member
Ash beat legendary-using Frontier Brains and that didn't stop him from collecting badges at all. I don't get why people think a league win is so bad for Ash, writers included.
I honestly expected Ash to win here (because that's the only result that actually makes sense in a full uninterrupted battle), never mention the Elite 4, and continue on to Alola to lose to the first Rockruff he meets.
I see no valid reason to completely undermine the quality of the whole league arc just for some dumb status quo that isn't necessary to keep Ash travelling and not being overpowered.
WaterTypeWarrior
Well-Known Member
Not that I disagree with you, but imagine the rage when Ash wins one League only to lose the next one. And they can't just have him keep winning or it actually would get redundant. On top of that, if they ever DO decide to end Ash's story, what would be a good way to do it? Sure, they could finally put Ash up against a regional champion, but would it really feel that satisfying when it's something he could've done before after a previous league?
Again, I don't disagree with you, and they could definitely still keep Ash around after winning a league, but it does introduce a lot of potential problems that I can understand them wanting to avoid.
Navin
MALDREAD
The only way to progress after he wins a league is to make him go slightly farther each time against the Elite 4.
So Ash would literally have to win every single subsequent league. I mean, they could always do what they did in XY and straight-up jump to the semifinals. But still, it would make him pretty overpowered. There wouldn't be much need for rivals as well since Ash is definitely beating them to face the real challenge (Elite 4s).
This is why it's honestly a better idea to simply clean the slate with a new protagonist. Ash got to the finals in XY. Now phase him out in SM.
Hauteclaire
Well-Known Member
He's a strong trainer, that's the only thing that matters. Though I kind of understand what you mean.
They can't do that because they would lose Pikachu. Plain and simple. Pikachu IS the star of the show. Not Satoshi. He's irreplaceable. Jessie and James would have left around the time Brock did if they weren't stuck to Meowth who is Pikachu's nemesis.
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Because Ash's Pikachu is the only Pikachu in the entire Pokemon world.
WaterTypeWarrior
Well-Known Member
I mean, they would probably make sure a new protagonist started out with a Pikachu too, but that's my biggest gripe with the idea of replacing Ash. The new guy is inevitably gonna end up feeling extremely similar to Ash, so why bother replacing him?
Shadao
Aim to be a Pokémon Master
A strong trainer who was duped by Team Flare. What headlines that would make. What good there is to be the strongest trainer when you helped a villain destroy cities with his evil doomsday machine? What good is there to realize that your boss doesn't care about you or your friend, opting to torture a young boy for some battery source? Alain has a lot to answer for. He bears responsibility for Team Flare's crimes and he must answer for them. That's the ultimate humiliation. Champion is caught conspiring with evil team destroying the city. The runner up is cleaning up the mess he had made and is more heroic. Wait? Why isn't the runner-up the Champion?
No matter what, Team Flare shall remain a stain on Alain's reputation for the rest of his days. Best give up the title to someone else.
satopi
Life doesn’t end, …it changes.
Even though he's supposed to be an Anti Hero, it would make sense of him to pay for his crimes instead of getting a slap on the wrist just because he helped take them down. I mean he is just as guilty as TF since he is associated with them. I can't imagine him getting arrested, the reason being, "he turned good."
Shadao
Aim to be a Pokémon Master
Good, but not forgotten. Suffice to say, that's why I'm more inclined to see Alain lose (voluntary likely) his Champion status and trophy, and give it to Ash after their little rematch.
WaterTypeWarrior
Well-Known Member
I'll admit, I'm an extremely forgiving person, but come on, Alain made a mistake. He was tricked. His affiliation with Team Flare isn't a reflection of his character. He's still a decent guy who just wants to be strong to protect the ones he loves. It's not like he's purposely trying to cause trouble. Yes, he should face some consequences for his actions, but I don't think losing his title as Champion should be one of them. His mistakes don't change the fact that he was the better trainer compared to Ash.
Emperor Empoleon
Honor of Kalos
Shadao
Aim to be a Pokémon Master
Considering that it was Alain who brought Lysandre the Pokémon Z2, Alain who gathered the Mega Evolution energy for Team Flare, Alain who was focused on strength and power over friendship with those close to him, it's pretty much going to affect him personally. And considering the preview, it seems either Alain has entered BSOD or if he's still on Team Flare's side, but showing signs of regret. Not to mention that if the runner up has to guide him to the right path, it raises the question as to who is the real champion of Kalos?
Billybo10K
Silent Trainer
Why not have a final season with Ash facing the Champion's League? Remember how Cynthia says at the end of Paul and Ash's battle that she believes they'll both be at the Champion's League one day. It may have been a throwaway line, but to me that just screams "Final Ash Season!" Have him win a region or something, then move to a Champion's League bringing back old/new character to face Ash including most of his older rivals and end with him losing first episode because it's the anime and Ash can't have nice things.
GarchompChain
Banned
Wow I can't believe they're going to end this awesome saga with this league.
I mean we've only seen Ash win one battle. This brings this league to the bottom of the list for me.
It's a hard pill to swallow for sure...
I mean we've only seen Ash win one battle. This brings this league to the bottom of the list for me.
It's a hard pill to swallow for sure...
LonelyShadow
A Guy
My greatest problem with this league is how delicate most Pokémon are portrayed; it feels like they’re made out of paper. Instead of showing us some endurance to make the battles longer and more interesting, most Pokémon are obligated to desperately dodge or counter with another attack hoping to get lucky and not end in a tie. Taking a hit isn’t a choice, the Ultimate Team is just fully evolved, not fully powerful.
Bringing Goodra back was pointless. That dinosaur wasn’t training and growing twice its size like Gliscor did, it was in a freaking swamp full of babies doing nothing. Why make Goodra return for no reason? Is it just a way to prove that the reserves were a smarter choice?
The way time was distributed for most episodes was awful to say the least; I honestly think that no one wants an episode whose content is 90% about Tierno VS Wally 2nd. Episode #33 could have easily been ‘fixed’ if they spared 10 minutes for Ash VS Astrid and allowing some future underdogs to have their chances to bright. Episode #34 also put too much time on Alain VS Remo to sacrifice the development for the first half of the Ash VS Sawyer.
The clash between Mega Sceptile and Ash-Greninja is by far the most entertaining and best animated battle in the tournament, these two had a rivalry and seeing them fight in their strongest state against each other was epic. Just like many characters pointed it out, Ash is completely synchronized with Greninja during this match and the viewer can also sense it, compared to the final one that feels like a casual ‘not-ultimate’ match against an opponent he never defeated, it’s very awkward to watch, the soundtrack chosen also makes the battle feel out of place, as if: this should have been the first rematch.
I'll never get the meaning behind the Cheetos Shuriken, why did it change color, looked so menacing and made Greninja's red spikes glow? It barely did a fraction of the damage expected to Charizard considering all the advertisement used for this particular attack. Even Ash doesn't express enough emotion while shouting the decisive final command. Hell, even the explosion felt generic, the sound effect used doesn't help at all, Pikachu’s Iron Tail + Volt Tackle on Latios had much more impact compared to this.
I see no reason to not state that Alain’s Charizard is Darkrai 2.0 minus the fainting, that thing took attacks from level 4000 Pikachu and it seemed like they barely did anything and also swept through the competition without any struggle. It's worse than legendaries.
The Kalos league barely qualifies as a tournament, the only thing that makes it hold up among the others is the high quality of the animation, but the amount of generic battles, ties, lack of strategies and the very anti-climactic ending just kills the whole experience. I assume that they tried to cover mediocre writing for this arc with really good animation, bad idea; the decision of focusing on the Team Flare arc rather than what’s supposed to be the main event, it’s rather sad, especially after giving us so many good Gym battles throughout these last two seasons.
5/10 – “No XY&Z with vocals playing during the final match.”
Bringing Goodra back was pointless. That dinosaur wasn’t training and growing twice its size like Gliscor did, it was in a freaking swamp full of babies doing nothing. Why make Goodra return for no reason? Is it just a way to prove that the reserves were a smarter choice?
The way time was distributed for most episodes was awful to say the least; I honestly think that no one wants an episode whose content is 90% about Tierno VS Wally 2nd. Episode #33 could have easily been ‘fixed’ if they spared 10 minutes for Ash VS Astrid and allowing some future underdogs to have their chances to bright. Episode #34 also put too much time on Alain VS Remo to sacrifice the development for the first half of the Ash VS Sawyer.
The clash between Mega Sceptile and Ash-Greninja is by far the most entertaining and best animated battle in the tournament, these two had a rivalry and seeing them fight in their strongest state against each other was epic. Just like many characters pointed it out, Ash is completely synchronized with Greninja during this match and the viewer can also sense it, compared to the final one that feels like a casual ‘not-ultimate’ match against an opponent he never defeated, it’s very awkward to watch, the soundtrack chosen also makes the battle feel out of place, as if: this should have been the first rematch.
I'll never get the meaning behind the Cheetos Shuriken, why did it change color, looked so menacing and made Greninja's red spikes glow? It barely did a fraction of the damage expected to Charizard considering all the advertisement used for this particular attack. Even Ash doesn't express enough emotion while shouting the decisive final command. Hell, even the explosion felt generic, the sound effect used doesn't help at all, Pikachu’s Iron Tail + Volt Tackle on Latios had much more impact compared to this.
I see no reason to not state that Alain’s Charizard is Darkrai 2.0 minus the fainting, that thing took attacks from level 4000 Pikachu and it seemed like they barely did anything and also swept through the competition without any struggle. It's worse than legendaries.
The Kalos league barely qualifies as a tournament, the only thing that makes it hold up among the others is the high quality of the animation, but the amount of generic battles, ties, lack of strategies and the very anti-climactic ending just kills the whole experience. I assume that they tried to cover mediocre writing for this arc with really good animation, bad idea; the decision of focusing on the Team Flare arc rather than what’s supposed to be the main event, it’s rather sad, especially after giving us so many good Gym battles throughout these last two seasons.
5/10 – “No XY&Z with vocals playing during the final match.”
A lot of complaints in this thread stem from the series not doing what they want instead of the actual events itself. I agree that the Kalos League has several problems, notably skipping matches and the lackluster development of rivals. Sure, there were problems too with the final match:
Regarding on the topic of Ash's character being problematic (e.g. never being allowed to win leagues), people misunderstand the root of the problem. The root of the problem is not Ash per se, it is the presentation of Ash's character that is the problem. These problems would have been avoided if the anime did what the manga did, alternate protagonists between sagas. I think someone in this thread also mentioned that this is what YU-GI-OH! does, which is a key reason the series is still going strong after 20+ years. Now this wouldn't have been possible at the beginning because no one was expecting Pokemon to become the juggernaut that it is today, but a lot of problems could have been solved with some regards for foresight. Hiring decent writers would have helped too. Sagas like the Kalos and Sinnoh sagas have nowhere near the amount of blunders evident during the Unova and Kanto sagas.
I have the feeling that if the current anime writers were allowed their way, Ash would be canned as the series' protagonist. I cannot see Ash being inferior to the likes of Alain, the Elite 4, or even Diantha by the saga's conclusion. It's long overdue to retire his character and move onto someone else.
People think Ash losing to Alain is reminiscent of Tobias? It isn't. Tobias came out of nowhere and effortlessly KO'd Ash's entire team with two pokemon. Did Alain come out of nowhere? No. He's been present in 4 Mega Evolution specials and a good chunk of XYZ. Furthermore, he struggled to KO Ash's entire time, with his Charizard narrowly besting Greninja. Oh, Alain isn't an ordinary trainer by the way. We're talking about a trainer who gave one E4 a run for his money (Siebold), defeated another E4 onscreen (Malva), and went toe-to-toe with Hoenn's Champion (Steven). The only rivals who were as developed as Alain are Paul and Gary, the rest left much to be desired.
I'm bound to rate the Kalos Saga has "adequate" but it remains to be seen what the writers will do for the series' conclusion. There's a good chance Ash will have a rematch with both Alain and Diantha. If the writers do this, which I think they will, then Ash is likely to win against Alain and will go toe-to-toe with Diantha, possibly even tying with her.
- lol @ Pikachu taking out two peudo-legendaries
- lol @ Charizard shrugging off a Thunderbolt
- lol @ Goodra not winning a single match
- lol @ Greninja not using Water Shuriken against Charizard when it was still raining
Regarding on the topic of Ash's character being problematic (e.g. never being allowed to win leagues), people misunderstand the root of the problem. The root of the problem is not Ash per se, it is the presentation of Ash's character that is the problem. These problems would have been avoided if the anime did what the manga did, alternate protagonists between sagas. I think someone in this thread also mentioned that this is what YU-GI-OH! does, which is a key reason the series is still going strong after 20+ years. Now this wouldn't have been possible at the beginning because no one was expecting Pokemon to become the juggernaut that it is today, but a lot of problems could have been solved with some regards for foresight. Hiring decent writers would have helped too. Sagas like the Kalos and Sinnoh sagas have nowhere near the amount of blunders evident during the Unova and Kanto sagas.
I have the feeling that if the current anime writers were allowed their way, Ash would be canned as the series' protagonist. I cannot see Ash being inferior to the likes of Alain, the Elite 4, or even Diantha by the saga's conclusion. It's long overdue to retire his character and move onto someone else.
People think Ash losing to Alain is reminiscent of Tobias? It isn't. Tobias came out of nowhere and effortlessly KO'd Ash's entire team with two pokemon. Did Alain come out of nowhere? No. He's been present in 4 Mega Evolution specials and a good chunk of XYZ. Furthermore, he struggled to KO Ash's entire time, with his Charizard narrowly besting Greninja. Oh, Alain isn't an ordinary trainer by the way. We're talking about a trainer who gave one E4 a run for his money (Siebold), defeated another E4 onscreen (Malva), and went toe-to-toe with Hoenn's Champion (Steven). The only rivals who were as developed as Alain are Paul and Gary, the rest left much to be desired.
I'm bound to rate the Kalos Saga has "adequate" but it remains to be seen what the writers will do for the series' conclusion. There's a good chance Ash will have a rematch with both Alain and Diantha. If the writers do this, which I think they will, then Ash is likely to win against Alain and will go toe-to-toe with Diantha, possibly even tying with her.
GarchompChain
Banned
But don't you guys agree that the problem doesn’t really lie in this match but in the league as a whole?
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