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Kanto League vs Unova League; Which Was Worse?

Discussion in 'Animé Polls' started by Genaller, Nov 8, 2018.

?

Which League was worse?

  1. Indigo Conference

    34.7%
  2. Vetress Conference

    57.1%
  3. Both were equally bad

    8.2%
  1. NeoDude-5000

    NeoDude-5000 Well-Known Member

    In all honestly Kanto did some memorable moments such as Krabby/Kingler's debut battle and won single handily, Ash vs. whatever that chick was called that was crushed, literally, by Muk, and Ash's battle against Ritchie despite the rules being total utter ********. But Unova, everything was mostly wrong. Ash and Trip battled WAY too early (I swear the animators hated the poor guy) and Ash lost to a fluke, I even preferred the battle against Tobias over these poor excuses of a battle.
     
  2. KyogreThunder

    KyogreThunder Call of Fate

    Both were awful, but at least the Unova League did have one good battle in Ash vs Stephan, and there was no referee declaring Pokemon unable to battle because of sleeping or disobedience. That being said, loss to Ritchie > loss to Cameron.
     
    345ash-greninja and Ignition like this.
  3. Captain Jigglypuff

    Captain Jigglypuff Leader of Jigglypuff

    Unova was utter bs. Seriously Ash lost to someone even stupider than OS Ash just because Riolu evolved and went Super Saiyan For no real reason. Cameron was so stupid he didn’t even know how many Badges were needed to participate in the League or even where it was held. Ash knew this during the OS and he was so stupid back then that he couldn’t even recognize TR’s disguises when it was very obvious it was them.
     
  4. Kintaro

    Kintaro Well-Known Member

    Kanto was better but most of it is nostalgia wise. For the first league of the show it was fine, as well as how Ash lost because he was a rookie trainer and went into a league with a disobediant Charizard.

    At the time it made sense, Ash was a moron in Kanto and he barely trained his pokemon. He's lucky he made it as far a she did to Top 16.
     
    Ash-Pikachu likes this.
  5. Kuzehiko

    Kuzehiko Well-Known Member

    Indigo league hands down. It is just garbage.
     
  6. 345ash-greninja

    345ash-greninja Don't dare call me short!!!

    Sorry for being so late in replying to this, but anyway:

    Actually no, Ash actually still didn't learn his lesson even after his humiliating loss in the Kanto League, and that much is clear from certain OS Orange Island episodes. The effects of the so called great "pay-off" or development for Ash certainly were not evident in early Orange Islands. His arrogance, cockiness and inflated ego which the pity badges led to still very much remained. Like say, he knew that he still didn't sort out Charizard's disobedience issues, Charizard still didn't think of Ash worthy enough a trainer whom it'd like to obey, especially after that kind of a humiliation he suffered in the Kanto League, as a result of not trying to sort out Charizard's disobedience issues. But still, what he does in the episode The Mandarin Island Miss Match?

    Let's Charizard loose on a trainer's Tauros, just naively hoping that Charizard would suddenly obey him out of nowhere without him having to sort out the issues. Which makes it clear that Ash's inflated ego and cocky attitude still existed there, with him thinking that Charizard's disobedience issues would be automatically sorted out without him having to do nothing, expecting things to be handed over to him on a silver platter without him having to earn things legitimately via hard work and trying to sort out his shortcoming/mistakes.

    Not to mention that he was acting arrogant and egoistic throughout the whole episode, having a high sense about himself after being on a long winning streak, and it requires a loss to Lorelei to finally bring him to his senses and develop humility.

    So, in retrospect, Ash's pity badges and his totally humiliating loss hardly led to much development in the long term; it at best started the developmemt, but certainly did not lead to any major development for Ash which made him immediately realize afterwards that he is supposed earn things himself, legitimately via hard work, things aren't gonna be just handed over to him on a silver platter, that he should try to sort out /rectify his own shortcomings/mistakes by himself, coming into terms with them. The so-called "pay-off" or development of Ash you're emphasizing so much on in order to justify Ash's extremely humiliating Kanto League loss and the laughable pity badges, didn't even happen much or come into effect that much as it was clearly very much evident in Ash's cockiness, arrogance and his egoist attitude in certain OI episodes like the one I mentioned, which happened after the Kanto League BTW. If that humiliating loss in Kanto was supposed to be such a "big fall" for Ash which would then lead to a great "pay off" for Ash, making him realise his own flaws and coming into terms with them in order to bring out the best within himself, like you are saying, then why did all that arrogance and inflated ego as clearly seen in some OI episodes, still clearly very much existed, after the Kanto League?

    Ir required some further harsh losses in OI to make him realize that he has to earn things himself, via hard work and and working out his shortcoming/mistakes, things aren't gonna be handed on a silver platter to him, and made him develop humility. So the pity badges and his humiliating loss in the Kanto League is very hard to justify in retrospect.

    And well, since this thread is about which League was worse (whether it's in terms of narrative portrayal or quality) and we are all trying to justify an extremely humiliating loss, a loss where Ash was really embarrassed in front of a huge audience, consider this: As a trainer who competes in a high-level tournament like a Pokemon League, one is at the very least expected to command his Pokemon appropriately in a battle; because getting your Pokemon to obey you in a battle and commanding it appropriately is something which falls into the basics of Pokemon battling, and an entire audience got to see in the Ritchie battle that a trainer who is competing in the Top 16 round of a Pokemon League, can't even get his Pokemon to obey him and listen to his commands, which basically constitutes the basics of Pokemon battling.

    If the loss is actually this much humiliating, I'd at least expect that it's effect leads to some really good development, making Ash realize the hard way that he has to earn things via hard work and sorting out his shortcomings and mistakes, things just won't be handed over to him.

    We viewers all got to see a legitimate garbage League where hardly any battle can be termed as good quality wise or enjoyable, we hardly ever got to see Ash legitimately earn a badge in Kanto, all for what? What did we get to see in return of all the extremely underwhelming things happened in Kanto on the part of Ash? For that it leads some really good development later on, and makes Ash realize things the hard way, and makes Ash come to terms with his flaws and bring out the best within himself later on?

    Then it may be justified......but, it didn't really quite happen just after all that humiliation/the big fall Ash went through/experienced in the Kanto League, Ash inflated ego and his arrogant/cocky attitude still remained, it just merely started the development at best. It's requires further harsh losses in OI like against Lorelei, like against the Poliwrath trainer in Charizard Chills where Charizard was brutally frozen solid, to make him realize that he has to earn things via hard work, sort out his own mistakes, he has to prove his worth as a trainer himself by all these, he has to prove himself as a worthy and good enough trainer to Charizard to get Charizard to obey him.

    Merely starting the development, and not being the major cause of Ash's development (later proved in OI) isn't really enough in my book to justify those laughable pity badges and that absolutely garbage and underwhelming League with legitimate joke battles and and that extremely humiliating loss in there. If it was the major immediate cause, I can maybe still understand it that all off that underwhelming stuff that happened of Ash's part was perhaps really worth it. But nope, as proven afterwards, that certainly was not the case.

    So it's really not fair to justify Ash's pity badges and Ash's humiliating loss in the Kanto League by using that excuse that they were actually a part of Ash's development and to lead to a great pay off for Ash's character which helps him to come into terms with his own flaws and bring out the best within himself, because the effects of that so called "development" and "pay off" weren't really showing much just afterwards, Ash's cockiness, inflated ego and arrogance still very much remained after that for a sizable number or episodes as evident later on. It required some further remarkable events in OI which included some harsh losses, to make Ash realize that, he needs to legitimately earn things himself via hard work, by sorting out and overcoming his own shortcomings and mistakes. Those important and major events in OI, which made him realize that truth, were actually the key events here; the laughable pity badges and that extremely humiliating loss in OS weren't really much important in retrospective nor they were really badly needed either. The OI events which were the key incidents in developing Ash, could have been easily done much earlier, before the Kanto League without much problems; then Ash's Kanto League loss could have been of much better quality and could've been done much better as well, without this extremely humiliating/disgraceful loss even happening to exist in the first place.
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2018
  7. Kintaro

    Kintaro Well-Known Member

    Story wise Kanto was much better.

    Unova league was bad for no reason with the one standout being the Stephen battle which was very good.
     
  8. Slapstick-Olivia

    Slapstick-Olivia Well-Known Member

    The Kanto league was actually very interesting written. Mostly because it took a turn I didn't expected. Like Gary falling out sooner than Ash and Ash loosing a battle in a very unusual way and then has to deal with this later.

    The Unova league is more or less the same like any other league. Ash trains very hard, meets a new rival before the league and looses against this specific rival in the end. Personally the Unova league is actually like any other league in the anime. It follows the same template, that's why I personally can't see why any of the leagues are worst or better than the other.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2019
    PorcelainVulpix likes this.
  9. ash&charizardfan

    ash&charizardfan Humanity's greatest soldier

    My issue with kanto league is not only the quality of battles were so bad the way ash lost was also BS, ritchie was being pitched as a guy who was better version than why gave him handicap win, also my biggest issue with whole kanto saga was the pity badges and ash not training his pokemon even for the league. If they really wanted to focus mainly on humour part then why included the badge quest to ruin the gym battles, they should just have focussed on the comedy and introduced gym dage and serious battling from johto region or orange islands.
     
  10. Ignition

    Ignition Why are the angry characters always the best ones?

    Pacing, how much of an impact the rival(s) have on Ash, use of strategy, and buildup are the main reasons they vary from fan to fan
     
  11. satopi

    satopi All hail Satomine Night!

    Unova League. Pikachu lost by DEM evolution by Riolu and Ash lost to an idiot that borrowed his brains from the Wizard of Oz Scarecrow.
     
    Genaller and Ash-Pikachu like this.
  12. Captain Jigglypuff

    Captain Jigglypuff Leader of Jigglypuff

    That’s too generous.. Cameron actually is borrowed his. Brains from some dryer lint!
     
  13. keepitsimple

    keepitsimple the air is electrifying

    What?
     
  14. Xenon Blue

    Xenon Blue No Hard Feelings

    Unova is worse, since at least with Kanto there was something to build from it. It's a shame because the Unova league did have some potential to at least be decent, but so much wasted potential made it pretty awful for no real reason.
     
    Genaller likes this.
  15. Kintaro

    Kintaro Well-Known Member

    Virgil was also the only league rival introduced that Ash didn't even battle. I don't get what the point of him was.
     
    Xuxuba likes this.
  16. Xuxuba

    Xuxuba Well-Known Member

    I think the Indigo League only got bad in the end while BW League was bad from start to finish.
     
  17. pokedigijedi

    pokedigijedi Saiyan Jedi

    The Unova League by a long shot, at least in Kanto the writer's (and Ash) were just starting out so it can be forgiven.

    Unova not so much
     
    PorcelainVulpix likes this.
  18. Kintaro

    Kintaro Well-Known Member

    I sometimes think the Unova league was written bad purposely as like the final death knell for the BW series. Like by that point the writers were well aware the BW series itself was received poorly, so they just kinda stopped caring. After the league the Plasma arc was rushed and we got some pointless Declora Island filler arc...so it seems like they just gave up at that point. The fact that none of Ash's Unova pokemon evolve afterward when some could of like Scraggy, Boldore, Snivy, etc...just makes me feel like they stopped caring.
     
  19. Nodame

    Nodame Well-Known Member

    In the Kanto league Ash was still on his beginning journey so I won't complain. Unova was bad though since he's supposed to be a better trainer and win, but no.

    I can never complain on why Ash's Pokemon don't evolve, mm hello? cute Pokemon are marketable, many people adore them, they can also win and be badass if the writers want. It's not like the writers don't care, they serve a purpose of "being cute" and is enough justification for me.
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2018
    PineapplePizza likes this.
  20. PineapplePizza

    PineapplePizza Well-Known Member

    I feel like this is apple and oranges.

    Battles were never super important to the Kanto era writers. Out of Ash’s 5 matches only one of his matches takes more than 5 minutes of an episode’s screentime. 2 of his 5 matches we only see the last Pokemon. The writers were morw interested in showing how the culture works and slapstick comedy than the Pokemon battles. Which I don’t have a personal problem with but I can see why others do.

    That said his match with Ritchie was bullshit. As someone else pointed out it’s asinine that putting a Pokemon to sleep counts as a KO.

    Also it was idiotic for the writers to treat Pikachu’s loss as “too exhausted from its scuffle with team rocket” and Ash may be dumb but is he really dumb enough to use Charizard? Did he not have Kingler or Muk on hand? Or Taurus? I know Pidgetto has a crap track record but its suppose to be a good Pokemon too.


    But the problem with Unova is its at a point the show was suppose to be more focused on battling and strategies and it still sucked. All of Ash’s development went backwards.
     
    PorcelainVulpix likes this.

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